What are your thoughts about Fairphone 2?

54 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

It it is not supported by Replicant, so it cannot run a completely free operating system. However, it can run LineageOS[1], which is mostly free. The fact that it is modular is also good, as it makes it easier to repair and more environmentally friendly.

However, it suffers from the same problem as all cell phones, which is that in order to send and receive phone calls or text messages the modem is enabled, subjecting the user to surveillance.

The only promising solution I'm aware of is the work of Denver Gingerich[2]. JMP[3] is free software that integrates with the cell network, allowing one to send and receive phone calls and text messages using the Internet. The next stage of the project, WOM[4] aims to expand JMP coverage with a radio mesh. Unfortunately, JMP only works with North American phone numbers at the moment.

The title of [2], "Embracing Then Extinguishing the (Cell) Phone Network" is a reference to EEE[5]. Microsoft has done a lot of damage with this effective strategy. I'm interested to see what can be accomplished with this strategy in the hands of one of the good guys.

[1]https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/FP2
[2]https://ossguy.com/talks/20171022_radical_networks/
[3]https://jmp.chat/
[4]https://wom.community/
[5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

I see.

I have looked a little bit into this and I do not understand the telephony modem part that good. Some people talk about the telephony modem being "isolated good" from the rest of the components and the telephony modem being isolated bad.

But suppose I have a cell phone with Replicant or LineageOS, but I am using it without a telephony sim, only using it as a small computer with wi-fi.

Will the telephony modem be "enabled" then? And does it then matter if the modem is proper isolated or not?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

The modem is the part of the phone that connects to the cell network. The software it runs is not part of the main operating system (Replicant, LineageOS, Android (ew), iOS (ewwwwwww)). Even if your main operating system is free, the software running on the modem is proprietary. "Good modem isolation" means that the modem can only access hardware with your main operating system's permission. "Bad modem isolation" means that the modem has direct access to hardware. For example, if the modem has direct access to your microphone, you can be listened in on at any moment, whereas with good modem isolation you can only be listened in on sometimes (while making a phone call, for instance). Unfortunately, since there are no free hardware phones, there is no way to know for certain that you have good modem isolation, and even with good modem isolation, the modem can still connect to cell towers, allowing your movements to be tracked.

The neo900[1] will address this with hardware switches that can completely disable the microphone, modem, etc. However, in order to send/receive calls and texts (and thus be useful as a phone) the modem must be enabled, during which time you can still be surveilled.

If you have a phone with a SIM card, you can be spied on by both your cell carrier and the government. Without a SIM card, you can only be spied on by the government. Even without a SIM card, the modem can connect to the cell network, which is why you can still call emergency services. Therefore, modem isolation is still important even if you have no SIM card.

If you have no need for a modem and just want a small computer, here[2] are some possibilities. One option I leave out in that comment is taking your phone apart, removing the modem, and putting it back together. This is risky, but if you already have a phone capable of running Replicant or LineageOS, it would save you the cost of buying a new device.

[1] http://neo900.org/
[2] https://trisquel.info/en/forum/family-buying-me-cellphone-without-my-consent#comment-123254

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

I understand.

But I believe Replicant (or maybe LineageOS) states that some devices has "prooven" good isolation, if one gets one of those with Rep or Line, then you would be pretty set (at least by today's standards)?

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Also, the neo900 partial funding thing I don't understand.

I would LOVE to preorder and contribute to the development of a totally free mobile computer (is it free hardware? And how does the telephony modem thing work?). But is it 430euros as deposit, and that's 40% of full price? And it's not guaranteed? Somethibg here I have missed surely.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Also also,

Do you know if wi-fi drivers in LineageOS tend to be free?

I see it's not possible to have wi-fi in Replicant without adapter which drains huge ammounts of battery according to themselves, which puts me a bit off.

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> But I believe Replicant (or maybe LineageOS) states that some devices has "prooven" good isolation

Unless things have changed since the last time I looked into this, it is impossible to prove that a phone has good modem isolation. However, it is possible to prove that a phone *doesn't* have good isolation, so when choosing a phone the best you can do is choose one that has not yet been proven to have bad modem isolation.

> is it free hardware?

No, it just won't require proprietary software. Apart from the modem, the only component that will require non-free firmware is the GPU, but 3D-acceleration is unecessary to use the device, so you do not need to install the non-free firmware.

> And how does the telephony modem thing work?

From their website:

"We're going to address privacy concerns of non-free modem firmware by ensuring that the modem has access to no more data than absolutely necessary, so it won't be able to spy on anything that's not already available on carrier side. On Neo900 one can be sure that the modem is actually turned off when requested, not just pretending to be. Users will be notified in case of the modem wanting to do something without their consent.

"Unlike some other smartphones do, Neo900 won't share system RAM with the modem and system CPU will always have full control over the microphone signal sent to the modem. You can think of it as a USB dongle connected to the PC, with you in full control over the drivers, with a virtual LED to show any modem activity."

> But is it 430euros as deposit, and that's 40% of full price? And it's not guaranteed?

The partial preorders go toward funding the R&D that will make the device possible. The preorders are not guaranteed because there is no way to know for certain that the project will be successful. That means that there is indeed some risk in contributing. I have not contributed because I have no need for a cell phone, I think that attempting to liberate cell phones is a dead end and we are better off becoming independent of the cell network, and I could not afford to contribute if I wanted to. I do respect the goals of the project, but I would only recommend that someone contribute if they are reasonably well-off.

> Do you know if wi-fi drivers in LineageOS tend to be free?

No. The difference between Replicant and LineageOS is that when there is no free firmware for a hardware component, LineageOS includes the non-free firmware whereas Replicant leaves it out. This is Replicant does not support as many devices, and why not all hardware components of those devices work.

> I see it's not possible to have wi-fi in Replicant without adapter which drains huge amounts of battery according to themselves, which puts me a bit off.

It's not ideal. If what you want is a small computer, as opposed to a phone, I do not recommend Replicant. I would instead go with a small device that can run GNU/Linux such as the PocketCHIP or GPD Pocket. I purchased a PocketCHIP to use with JMP. It is a fun device, although I have since found that I prefer to use my laptop. For me, the convenience of a full sized keyboard outweighs the convenience of being able to fit my computer in my pocket.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Does the pocketCHIP and GPD Pocket work flawlessly with Trisquel and wi-fi?

Also: I am currently attempting to install Replicant on a Samsung Galaxy 2 but got stuck at the:

"gpg --armor --verify path/to/replicant-6.0-i9100.zip.asc path/to/replicant-6.0-i9100.zip
gpg --armor --verify path/to/recovery-i9100.img.asc path/to/recovery-i9100.img"

part.

When I click on the .img.asc link in here https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantImages nothing is being downloaded.

How did you manage this part?

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

I managed to install Replicant on the Galaxy S 2, and I have read some other threads that gave me the answer to the other questions as well.

But you where talking about removing the modem physically, do you have more information regarding that?

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

This subject was discussed a few months ago here ...
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/mobile-devices-respecting-software-freedom

... and more recently here:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/smartphone-libre-convictions-your-advices#comment-131904

"I think that attempting to liberate cell phones is a dead end and we are better off becoming independent of the cell network"

I agree with this as a goal. Just as the fax was a transitional technology between mail and email, the cell network is a transitional technology between landline phone and "e-phone". But the development of e-phone right now is about where email was in the 1980s (I'm being generous here). I'd say we're at least a decade away from a federated voice calling standard having sufficient network effect to make the datafarms relent, and connect their voice calling systems to it (as AOL eventually felt obliged to do with federated email). Plus we've got to figure out how to provide a seamless wireless network with as much coverage and capacity as the cell network. In other words, this is a long term goal.

Besides, liberating mobile devices is not predominantly about liberating the cell network. Even when we achieve the above goals, people will still want small touchscreen devices ("phones") to call people on. Such devices are also more practical than a laptop for a range of other purposes, including maps and translation. I'm a huge fan off my AA1 netbook, and infamous for making "Get Off My Lawn" comments about how mobile devices are not "real computers". But now that I live in a country where I don't speak the language and can't read anything that isn't in English (eg wall menus at the cheaper, better restaurants), I desperately want a handheld device.

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> I'd say we're at least a decade away from a federated voice calling standard having sufficient network effect to make the datafarms relent, and connect their voice calling systems to it

What do you think of Soprani[1]? (page requires free JS)

Rather than create a new protocol, JMP uses SIP and XMPP for calls and texts respectively. SIP is already supported by the built-in voice call client in Android and Android-derivatives, with Conversations[2] XMPP feels just like sending text messages, and there are plenty of decent SIP and XMPP clients for GNU/Linux that could run on a small device.

Rather than attempt to achieve enough of a network effect to compete with that of the cell network, JMP neutralizes the network effect by integrating with the cell network. The goal is ultimately to replace the cell network, but in the meantime it is possible to switch to JMP without giving up the social benefits of the cell network. Using only WiFi, I can call and text all of the same people I could with a cell phone, with no need to use non-free software or allow myself to be tracked.

The only disadvantages I see of JMP compared to the cell network are (1) that WiFi is harder to access than a cell tower in many areas and (2) at the moment it only works with North American phone numbers.

Although I expect access to WiFi to gradually improve anyway, the next step of Soprani, WOM, might also help address this. It will consist of radio relays that can allow JMP users to communicate directly if there are in line of sight (or in line of sight of a user in line of sight of a user in...) and to communicate with the rest of the network as long as at least one of them is connected to the Internet.

I don't know when JMP is planned to be extended beyond North America. Perhaps Denver wants to achieve a certain density of users here before expanding.

> Besides, liberating mobile devices is not predominantly about liberating the cell network. Even when we achieve the above goals, people will still want small touchscreen devices ("phones") to call people on.

That's a very good point. I really wish someone would start manufacturing the Ben NanoNote[3] again.

> But now that I live in a country where I don't speak the language and can't read anything that isn't in English (eg wall menus at the cheaper, better restaurants), I desperately want a handheld device.

A Replicant tablet might be sufficient. Unless the translation software you use is SaaSS[4] you should not need to be connected to the Internet.

[1] https://ossguy.com/talks/20171022_radical_networks/
[2] https://conversations.im/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_NanoNote
[4] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

One more point regarding

> Besides, liberating mobile devices is not predominantly about liberating the cell network.

I agree overall, but Purism presents their phone as a device that "does not track you." Purism is very skilled at marketing, so if they think that there is a market for cell phone users who do not want to be tracked then there probably is, and they will be tracked if they rely on modem/SIM to send and receive calls and texts.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

what does JMP rely on?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

JMP relies on XMPP for text messages and SIP for voice calls. Both protocols are federated[3] like email, and your address for each is similarly of the form name@domain. JMP integrates the two identities, so that voicemails to your SIP address are transcribed and sent to your XMPP address as a text message containing the transcription and an attached audio file of the voicemail. In order for JMP users to communicate with each other, they simply use their preferred XMPP and SIP clients to send messages and make calls to each other's XMPP and SIP addresses.

The Soprani software that allows JMP users to communicate with non-JMP users who use the cell network are sgx-catapult[4] and jmp-fwdcalls[5]. I don't fully understand how they work, but I can describe the experience from the perspective of JMP users and the non-JMP users with whom they communicate.

To call a cell phone user, I simply call their number from my SIP client. To text them I send a message to name at domain, where +1XXXXXXX is their phone number. cheogram.com is specific to the instance of JMP run by Soprani. Since JMP is free software, anyone could set up their own instance.

For a cell user to call or text me, they just call/text the phone number associated with my XMPP and SIP addresses like they would any other phone number. I receive calls as SIP calls from their phone number, and text messages as XMPP messages from name at domain.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol#Network_elements
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_(information_technology)
[4] https://gitlab.com/ossguy/sgx-catapult
[5] https://gitlab.com/ossguy/jmp-fwdcalls

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

So they can connect to the cellular internet without modem/SIM?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

That depends on what you mean by "the cellular internet."

I think you might be referring to Internet access via cellular data, which is what allows you to access the Internet on your smart phone without WiFi "everywhere" (as long as you are in range of a cell tower). If this is what you mean, then no, JMP cannot do this. There is no way to connect to a cell tower without a modem, and no way to do anything more than emergency calls with this connection without a SIM card.

Instead, JMP relies on some other kind of connection to the Internet (WiFi, Ethernet) with which it can send/receive text messages and calls via XMPP and SIP.

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

Mason:
> Purism presents their phone as a device that "does not track you."

This is accurate, the device does not track its user. Purism has no control over whether the device is used with a third-party provider (the cell carrier) that does track you. If they had the option to choose a cellular modem that can be physically isolated from the rest of the device with a hardware switch, and instead chose one that isn't then their claim becomes a little bit more dubious.

The important thing here is not how the Purism phone compares to some non-existent ideal mobile device, but how it compares to the devices most people will continue to buy and use, if devices like the Librem 5 don't become available. By this comparison, the Purism mobile is a big step in the right direction; a touchscreen mobile running a full GNU-Linux, that the owner of the device has root on. Not even Replicant provides that.

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> This is accurate, the device does not track its user.

This is only true while the modem is off. However, if the modem is off it is useless as a phone. I think it is likely that almost everyone who would buy such a device intends to use it as a phone. The device will track them.

> Purism has no control over whether the device is used with a third-party provider (the cell carrier) that does track you.

This is true, but that doesn't make the claim that the device "does not track you" accurate.

> The important thing here is not how the Purism phone compares to some non-existent ideal mobile device

It is important because Purism is advertising a non-exsistent ideal mobile device, but you are right that

> how it compares to the devices most people will continue to buy and use, if devices like the Librem 5 don't become available

is also important. The device will be better than the phones that currently exist.

However, I don't consider it a step in the right direction. I see it as a step toward a state that is marginally better than the current state but ultimately a dead end. An actual solution will achieve independence of the cell network, at which point the Purism phone will be unnecessary, because any computer will do. The Purism phone is a temporary mitigation of the problem, but it does not bring us any closer to a solution.

Soprani, on the other hand, does bring us closer to a solution. For North Americans with Internet access, it is a complete solution, and the limitations that prevent it from being a solution for everybody are surmountable.

> The installed user base for XMPP/SIP is vanishingly small.

That isn't a problem. Soprani is trying to replace the cell network, not popular chat or VoIP protocols. The fact that JMP can be used to interact with XMPP and SIP users is a nice bonus, especially since XMPP is the protocol of choice for Diaspora and Movim, but it is only important to be able to communicate with cell phone users and other JMP users.

> The bridge JMP provides to the landline/cell network is also a step in the right direction, but won't be a true competitor for most people until it can call numbers in as many countries as most landline/ cell carriers can.

This is a limitation, but only temporarily.

> There are many schemes to improve wifi coverage, but the present situation is that they are few and far between, compared to the existing cell network.

This is the other limitation, and it will be harder to surmount. Even as WiFi coverage improves, it will be difficult to pull off complete coverage with WOM. However, it is not inherently impossible. Creating a device that both connects to cell towers and does not track the user is inherently impossible.

> Until all of these proof-of-concepts and experimental projects become mainstream, most people will continue to want a handheld that can connect to the cell network to get both data and always-on calling/ txt.

I agree, but in order for a project like Soprani to become mainstream people must understand why it is necessary. Misleading people into believing that it is possible to have a phone that does not track the user undermines such efforts. The Purism phone will be an improvement over current phones, which will be temporarily beneficial. However, spreading ignorance in the process of promoting it does damage. Whether or not the potential benefit outweighs the damage is subjective, but in my opinion it does not.

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

Me:
> This is accurate, the device does not track its user.

Mason:
> "This is only true while the modem is off."

No it's not. The device does no tracking. Connecting the device to a cell carrier potentially allows *them* to do tracking, by triangulating the position of the device using the three nearest cell towers. But this is not the device tracking its user, it's the cell carrier tracking the user. Big difference.

If you have a low-power FM radio transmitter, your signal can be triangulated. Does that mean the radio transmitter is tracking you? Or that someone is tracking you, using an incidental property of the way the radio transmitter works?

As you say, the only thing that can prevent this is a) use a device with no cell modem, and b) replace the cell network with a privacy-respecting voice calling and messaging network with comparable coverage. Most people will not do a) until b) is in place. For all the reasons I mentioned in my last comment, b) is still years from being ready for primetime use. Therefore, in the meantime, a device like the Librem 5 allows people to have more freedom than they would with a standard Android-Linux or iThing device. Progress is *always* incremental.

> "An actual solution will achieve independence of the cell network, at which point the Purism phone will be unnecessary, because any computer will do."

We've covered this. Having a cell modem is not what makes the Librem 5 useful. I have an AA1, one of the smallest, most portable laptops every made, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that a desktop/ laptop does not provide the same #UX as a mobile device. Even if you had a laptop with a touchscreen, you can't carry a laptop around in your pocket, it can't wake up ready for use in seconds, while still going all day (or even 2) on one battery charge, you can't put it to your ear like a phone for private conversations, it's not useful as a camera (it's not impossible to take photos, it's just impractically awkward) etc etc etc.

Mobile devices are as different from laptops as laptops are from desktops, or desktops are from mini-computers. If and when Sopranica replaces the cell network, we will still need devices like the Librem 5, they just won't need to include a cell modem anymore. Which I will celebrate along with you. I'll even buy you a beverage.

> "For North Americans with Internet access, it is a complete solution"

I want to be really careful how I phrase this, as I don't mean to be disrespectful towards you, or dismissive of what JMP / Sopranica have achieved. Don't get me wrong, I support the project. I will look into using it, and promoting it.

But the hard fact is that the USA is not the world. It's not even half the world. It's not even quarter of the world, it's a tiny fraction of the world's population. China has almost 20% of the world's population, and almost all of them have a mobile device running WeChat. That's a user base many, many times the size of the whole US population, and it's used as much as cell texts/ calls here. But still I see no sign of WeChat having the network effect required to replace the global cell network. Again, until you can call someone using JMP/ Sopranic in every country where you can currently call someone using a landline/ cell device, it's not just lacking feature parity, it's not even a replacement.

> This is a limitation, but only temporarily.

JMP has been going less than a decade. It's taken about 4 decades for the cell network to be on par with the coverage of the landline network in the US. By the time that Sopranica does the same, any Librem 5 devices that get bought will have long since stopped working, and been replaced, possibly many times.

Sopranica is not the first project that aspired to create a freedom-respecting, wireless internet. I know better than to think it's only months away, when even in the best-case scenario, it's years away. During Occupy, MotherboardTV made a documentary about the Free Network Foundation. Seven years later, where are they now? There is also servalproject.org, and openwireless.org, and many, many others. I've been hearing about ambitious community wireless project since some Indymedia affilates were doing them in the late 90s. For more examples, see:
http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/index.php?search=wireless&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search

> Misleading people into believing that it is possible to have a phone that does not track the user undermines such efforts.

See my first point. Also consider this, imagine JMP / Sopranic succeeds, and everyone is connecting to it using iThings and locked-down vanilla Androids, because people have been spreading FUD about how devices like the Librem 5 aren't really any different, so anyone trying to sell such devices goes out of business. You contribution here is ... ?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> No it's not. The device does no tracking. Connecting the device to a cell carrier potentially allows *them* to do tracking, by triangulating the position of the device using the three nearest cell towers. But this is not the device tracking its user, it's the cell carrier tracking the user. Big difference.

Fine, I don't disagree with that framing. The cell carrier is the one tracking the user, and the cell phone is the tool they use to do so. However, this is also true about regular cell phones. The only way the Purism phone or neo900 is different (as far as tracking goes, they have other unrelated advantages) from other phones is that the phone has a switch that turns it into a non-phone. Users will still be tracked by their carrier, just as they are now, unless they use the device as a non-phone, which they won't.

> If you have a low-power FM radio transmitter, your signal can be triangulated. Does that mean the radio transmitter is tracking you? Or that someone is tracking you, using an incidental property of the way the radio transmitter works?

In order to access the cell network (apart from emergency calls) you must identify yourself with a SIM card. This is how your cell carrier tracks you. I see accessing radio transmissions as more similar to using Tor (properly). Your traffic is visible, but it cannot be used to track you because no one knows that it is yours.

> I want to be really careful how I phrase this, as I don't mean to be disrespectful towards you, or dismissive of what JMP / Sopranica have achieved. Don't get me wrong, I support the project. I will look into using it, and promoting it.

> But the hard fact is that the USA is not the world.

If I have come across as US-centric, I really regret that. I never meant to imply that a solution only available in North America is even close to sufficient. JMP is in beta. I am grateful that I can benefit from it now, but also see myself as a tester of a project that will not be complete until it is available globally.

> China has almost 20% of the world's population, and almost all of them have a mobile device running WeChat. That's a user base many, many times the size of the whole US population, and it's used as much as cell texts/ calls here. But still I see no sign of WeChat having the network effect required to replace the global cell network.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that WeChat can be used to contact a non-WeChat cell phone user. If I am right, then it is not a fair comparison to JMP. Whereas WeChat would have to achieve a certain amount of network effect to succeed, JMP does not. I should explain what I mean by "succeed." There are two goals one might have:

(1) A world where everyone has the option of not carrying a cell phone.

(2) A world where no one carries a cell phone.

I don't see (2) happening any time soon, and when it does it will be because the technology is obsolete, not because of something like Soprani. (2) isn't even on my radar. However, I think that (1) is attainable. I see (1) as the similar to at least one libre distro existing, and (2) as similar to libre distros replacing all proprietary operating systems. (2) would be better, but (1) is pretty worthy as well.

> JMP has been going less than a decade. It's taken about 4 decades for the cell network to be on par with the coverage of the landline network in the US. By the time that Sopranica does the same, any Librem 5 devices that get bought will have long since stopped working, and been replaced, possibly many times.

Yes, this is why I'm not optimistic about (2), but popularity is not necessary to achieve (1).

> Again, until you can call someone using JMP/ Sopranic in every country where you can currently call someone using a landline/ cell device, it's not just lacking feature parity, it's not even a replacement.

You're absolutely right. Once JMP is out of beta in the North America I hope it won't be long before it is available elsewhere.

> Sopranica is not the first project that aspired to create a freedom-respecting, wireless internet. I know better than to think it's only months away, when even in the best-case scenario, it's years away.

Again, you are right. WOM is more ambitious than JMP, and JMP will not quite be as useful without it, but lack of Internet access is a problem for many other reasons. A service that requires the Internet is not useful to the set of people without Internet access. Similarly, a Purism phone is not useful to the even larger (I estimate) set of people who could not afford it.

> See my first point.

Again, the nuance that a cell phone is a tool used to track people as opposed to an agent actively tracking people does not make it less of a problem and is not a difference between current cell phones and the neo900 or Purism phone. I initially interpreted "does not track you" as meaning that users of the device will not be tracked with it. I'm also fine with your interpretation that it means that only your cell carrier will certainly track you and that a government may, but the statement would still be dishonest because it implies that this is unique to Purism's device. However,

> Also consider this, imagine JMP / Sopranic succeeds, and everyone is connecting to it using iThings and locked-down vanilla Androids, because people have been spreading FUD about how devices like the Librem 5 aren't really any different, so anyone trying to sell such devices goes out of business. You contribution here is ... ?

I really hope that I have not made it sound like the Librem 5 and neo900 are not better than Android or iOS. If so, I will try to be more responsible in how I talk about them. The Librem 5 and neo900 will have several important advantages over the current free-est option (Replicant phones), particularly

- a free bootloader
- a hardware switch for the modem
- working WiFi

in addition to having all of the freedom advantages that Replicant has over iOS and Android.

I hope the Purism phone is successful, as long as in the process of succeeding it does not cause people to think that they are not being tracked while using the device, undermining efforts to solve that problem. It would be great if Purism used their platform to educate potential customers about such problems and disclose their products' limitations as well as their advantages, as Technoethical does.[1] Until they start doing that I will continue to inform people that Purism's Intel laptops will always have a non-free BIOS and that Purism phones will always allow you to be tracked while the modem is on, so that people understand why other projects like EOMA68 and Soprani are important.

However, I also want people to be aware of the problems that Purism's products successfully address, and it sounds like I have failed to communicate that. I'll do better.

[1] https://tehnoetic.com/tehnoetic-s3-phone-replicant

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

I just had another thought.

The most important feature of the Librem 5 is in my opinion the modem hardware switch. If someone is unaware that the modem is used to track them, they won't understand why it is so important. Perhaps the right way to talk about the device is to clarify that it has an inherent limitation that will require another project like Soprani to address, but point out that this should make the Librem 5's modem hardware switch all the more of a selling point in the meantime.

Also, I can no longer easily find the page in which Purism stated that the phone would not track users. The pages I can access from their website say nothing of the sort. In fact, I no longer see any statements regarding the Librem 5 that I object to, so I guess I can shut up now. :)

However, I also can no longer easily find any mention of the hardware modem switch, which is a shame.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

A little down on that page there's a paragraph called "A No-Carrier Phone?"

:D

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

edit: removing duplicate

GrevenGull
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> I really hope that I have not made it sound like the Librem 5 and neo900 are not better than Android or iOS. If so, I will try to be more responsible in how I talk about them. The Librem 5 and neo900 will have several important advantages over the current free-est option (Replicant phones), particularly

- a free bootloader
- a hardware switch for the modem
- working WiFi

in addition to having all of the freedom advantages that Replicant has over iOS and Android.

Well all I want is a really portable mobile device, so I guess I'll be buying the Librem 5 then and just switch off the modem.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

PS. the neo900 is still in funding process, right?

While Librem 5 funding is completed?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> A little down on that page there's a paragraph called "A No-Carrier Phone?"

That must be part of the page that I cannot access with JavaScript disabled. The Librem 5 will surely require a carrier to function as a "phone" that can send/receive text messages unless you are using JMP via WiFi. Perhaps they mean that if you don't want to use the device as a phone you can leave the modem switched off permanently and use it as a small computer.

> Well all I want is a really portable mobile device, so I guess I'll be buying the Librem 5 then and just switch off the modem.

That would be a good solution. If you cannot wait for either the Librem 5 or neo900 to be released, you could look into another small computer like the GPD Pocket, although I think the Librem 5 and neo900 will have a free bootloader whereas the GPD Pocket does not. If I ever manage to get a deblobbed kernel running on the damn PocketCHIP I'll share a guide on liberating it.

> PS. the neo900 is still in funding process, right?
> While Librem 5 funding is completed?

Both projects are still in research and development and are accepting preorders. Purism has a chart on their crowdfunding page indicating that they have exceeding their initial fund raising goal. I don't know what the initial fundraising goal for the neo900 was, so I don't know if they have exceeded it.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

> That must be part of the page that I cannot access with JavaScript disabled.

yeah I was using browser with java enabled at the time (oops), so this might be it.

> If I ever manage to get a deblobbed kernel running on the damn PocketCHIP I'll share a guide on liberating it.

Please do!

The neo900 seem like even "more free" than librem 5 though, is that the case? They say the will release schematics and stuff, that is promising, more so than librem. Perhaps neo900 is where my money are headed

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> They say the will release schematics and stuff, that is promising, more so than librem.

I did not realize that Purism does not plan to release the schematics for the Librem 5. If that is true, the devices will be equally compatible with free software, but the neo900 will have freer hardware.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

> I did not realize that Purism does not plan to release the schematics for the Librem 5.

I haven't seen anything about it. And after I realized that the majority of the Librem 5 page is unreachable without JS, and after reading a little about the history someone here shared I don't really feel like finding out if they do.

The Purism thing smells funny.

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

Sorry it's taken me so long to come back to this thread. I'm very hopeful about one day being able to use a mobile device without any non-free software or built-in tracking thanks to projects like Replicant and Puri.sm, and without depending on the corporate cell network, thanks to projects like JPM / WOM / Sensorica. I find it exciting that in both cases, there are people taking the risk of running commercial businesses to provide these products/ services. In future, I'd like to see similar businesses run as worker-owned or user-owner cooperatives.

Meta-discussion: It took us a few rounds but in the end we seem to have found consensus :) I think this thread is a wonderful example of an online exchange where people disagree productively about passionately-held views, and patiently explain their points, until mutual understanding is achieved. Taking part in threads like this gives me hope for the net, and the future in general :)

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

Mason:
> "What do you think of Soprani"

Like the Librem 5, it's a step in the right direction. But it doesn't change anything I said in the comment you were replying to. The installed user base for XMPP/SIP is vanishingly small. The bridge JMP provides to the landline/cell network is also a step in the right direction, but won't be a true competitor for most people until it can call numbers in as many countries as most landline/ cell carriers can. There are many schemes to improve wifi coverage, but the present situation is that they are few and far between, compared to the existing cell network. Until all of these proof-of-concepts and experimental projects become mainstream, most people will continue to want a handheld that can connect to the cell network to get both data and always-on calling/ txt.

GNUbahn
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Beigetreten: 02/18/2016

when choosing a phone the best you can do is choose one that has not yet been proven to have bad modem isolation

Do you know of a good way to find out?

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Oh, right.

Have tried wire?

They are in FSF's resources, and works and every platform.

But you say JMP. Is that a program like Wire or is it a company like AT&T?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> But you say JMP. Is that a program like Wire or is it a company like AT&T?

Neither, really. JMP is a program, not a company, but unlike Wire it is not a client. JMP performs tasks like forwarding text messages to my XMPP address. It does not run on my computer, but Soprani's, although because it is free software someone could set up their own instance. The programs I run on my computer are my preferred XMPP and SIP clients, mcabber and linphone respectively.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Okay, I think I understand.

So what is XMPP and SIP?

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

And how do one get a "XMPP address"?

Magic Banana

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Beigetreten: 07/24/2010

Registering one on a server: https://list.jabber.at

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

How to know which server to register on?

Are there any of the servers that are more free software oriented?

Magic Banana

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Beigetreten: 07/24/2010

You will not run that server. Only a client (which should be free software, if you value your freedoms). The administrator of the server deserves the control over the server (I hope for her that she uses free software). Not you. XMPP servers being federated (like email servers), you can then communicate with any user on the network, whatever her service provider.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

So a "regular email address" is indeed an XMPP address?

So I don't *need* to register at one of those servers on the list you linked? I can just use the email address I already have?

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

GrevenGull:
> Are there any of the servers that are more free software oriented?

Magic Banana:
> You will not run that server.

This doesn't answer GravenGull's question. They did not ask if they could use the computer running the server in freedom. They may be concerned about the freedoms of the person operating the server they use, or given that using an XMPP address implicitly endorses the server used, may wish to give that endorsement to a server that uses free code software.

Besides, I disagree with this tidy separation of client and server. A user connecting to a server may not *technically* be the person using the computer the server is running on, but many of the issues free code software was created to protect people from arise anyway. The reality of most "server-side" software today is that it's not only serving static files (HTML docs etc), but JS programs, and its not only accepting data uploaded explicitly by the user, but collecting all sorts of other telemetry as they use it. If a user becomes dependent on a computing workflow that uses a server, and the person hosting that server shuts it down, the user is in trouble if the server wasn't running free code software that the user can self-host, or find another third-party who hosts the same software.

Choosing a server host that runs only free code software is not sufficient to completely address all these issues, but it is necessary as a precondition to addressing most of them. As we move towards a web economy where we pay a small membership to organizations that host services for us (like JMP or social.coop), which I'd like to see, whether or not the server runs free code is the difference between whether all those people are funding free code software or proprietary software.

Magic Banana

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Beigetreten: 07/24/2010

Have you ever heard of Wikipedia?

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Have you ever heard of the concept "getting information from various/several different sources"?

Magic Banana

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Beigetreten: 07/24/2010

For undisputed facts, that is ridiculous (not that I believe that you read Wikipedia before asking here). Asking "What is XMPP?" is like asking "What is the Pythagorean theorem?" or "What is Oceania?" or "What is the Hubble telescope?" or...

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

Why are you answering and getting fired up if you think it is ridiculous?

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

When used in this way, "have you heard of" is a good example of "tinder words", as described in this excellent talk by Gina Likins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWmrlft2FI)%27

What you're actually suggesting is quite reasonable, but when you laid it out using these tinder words, as you can see, the reply drops a match on them, flame on!

strypey
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tonlee
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On replicant's irc a replicant person wrote, when replicant got to know a
fairphone was being planned, replicant contacted fairphone saying
they would like to give fairphone advice about selecting libre
software complying devices. Fairphone declined or did not
respond.

GrevenGull
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Beigetreten: 12/18/2017

:(

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

Hi GrevenGull. I do suggest reading the Wikipedia pages for XMPP and SIP if you are interested in the details of how they work. If anything is confusing, do ask for clarification here. Explaining only the confusing parts will be more time-efficient on our end than explaining the whole thing from scratch.

As for getting started with XMPP, an email address will not work. Even though email addresses and XMPP addresses both are of the form name@domain, they are not the same thing. However, acquiring and using an XMPP address is is similar process to that with email.

- Register with a server. I use dismail.de[1]
- Install a XMPP client. Pidgin should already be installed in Trisquel, although my favorite XMPP client that has a GUI is Gajim.
- Add your XMPP account to your chat client.
- Add somebody else's XMPP address to your roster. Your "roster" is your contacts list. Some clients might call it a "buddy list."
- Start chatting.

If you use Diaspora[2] or are interested in doing so, you might choose to join a pod[3] that supports chat via XMPP. If you do, an XMPP account will be generated for you, with the address your-username@the-domain-name-of-your-pod. Not only will this allow you to chat with other Diaspora users in your browser while signed into Diaspora, but you can also add your Diaspora account in your chat client and use it to chat with non-Diaspora users as well. One pod that I know supports XMPP is pod.jns.im

I am less familar with Movim[4] than with Diaspora, but it is built entirely on XMPP and should similarly allow you to sign into your account with an XMPP client to communicate with other XMPP users, as well as Movim users, Diaspora users, and JMP users.

[1] https://dismail.de/
[2] https://diasporafoundation.org/
[3] https://diasporafoundation.org/about
[4] https://movim.eu/