17:02:12 #startmeeting Development meeting 17:02:12 Meeting started Tue Feb 5 17:02:12 2013 UTC. The chair is quidam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:02:12 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 17:02:12 The meeting name has been set to 'development_meeting' 17:02:39 quidam: apart from being a liar, RB-34 is a nice bot 17:02:51 ok, I didn't send an agenda this time, mostly due to lack of time 17:03:12 but no matter, as simply following up previous actions will have us entertained for a while 17:03:21 https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/2013-01-29-meeting-0 17:03:35 #topic Previous meeting actions follow up 17:03:39 #link https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/2013-01-29-meeting-0 17:03:56 * daroal hides behind a rock 17:04:06 ok, many of those have been done 17:04:33 others that are not there were done as well, let's start with that list 17:04:39 aklis: you here? 17:05:08 he is away 17:05:51 the build machine was cleaned up, and jxself has access to it now 17:06:07 he is playing around a bit and starting to work on the kernels 17:06:45 I think he is away as well, but told me he will be adding some changes to the kernel like including the ALX module 17:07:16 aklis started working on the buildbot, it is not ready yet 17:07:50 daroal is behind a rock 17:08:04 and most of mine are done, let me check 17:08:23 I have to prune the member list 17:08:30 request the talk 17:08:41 * daroal is actually ashamed that I didn't write the jabber announcement nor worked on the better captcha, I will soon 17:08:54 and send the end of life anouncement for dagda 17:09:01 the rest are done 17:09:37 i created some weeks ago a trisquel-helper fork at gitorious, so far there was no reply to any helper script i add to bugtracker i think and also last meeting there was no reply to the git fork... i would like to know if that makes sense to stay with this... or if git accesss will be opnend soon to trisquel contributors? 17:09:59 DNS: yes, I wanted to discuss that 17:10:22 we should have a gitorious instance of our own 17:10:27 I was surprised to find that the FSF announced an jabber account as a member-benefit just hours after we talked about ours at the meeting :) 17:10:28 ok :-) 17:10:44 daroal: yes, that was very odd 17:11:56 DNS: in a previous meeting we said about having a gitorious instance, but I meant our own gitorious based site, not an account on gitorious.org. we follow a rule not to externalize our services 17:12:05 I won't say that it was the reason for me not posting the announcement though :-) 17:12:18 DNS: in any case I have to check that repo you made, since I guess I have code to import 17:12:29 ok let me know if i can help somehow 17:13:19 DNS: you can help me sort out the bugs and work on them 17:13:30 I created this http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/toutatis-development 17:13:31 ok 17:13:37 and closed several bugs already 17:13:54 uh these are some:) 17:13:58 some of the ones in the bottom list are fixed as well, I need to update that 17:14:03 what about this? https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/software-does-not-respect-free-system-distribution-guidelines 17:14:04 one sec 17:15:09 Muphrid: indeed, I have to go through that! the problem is that it is a lot more time consuming than it looks like 17:15:44 btw i reported this yesterday: https://trisquel.info/en/issues/7582 17:16:06 when I work on those I check that the reasons are right (some cases are tricky), and if the package is semifree it usually means freeing it 17:16:31 btw who is makin the artwork for trisquel? 17:16:36 images and such as 17:16:55 DNS: make a guess :) 17:17:14 if some1 wants to help fix some stuff he/she needs to be in touch with designers if he/she is not a desinger mim/herself 17:17:19 quidam: I edited that wiki yesterday to add apt and command-not-found as fixed 17:17:30 in case its about like issue 7582 17:17:36 Muphrid: that would be an example, xdm needs a helper and to be compiled, tested and pushed into the repo, so it takes a while 17:18:00 ( guys, as far i see there is no specific agenda for today? am i right? https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/2013-02-05-meeting ) 17:18:05 it is not like a package is fully non-free and can be removed and forget... that is rare 17:18:20 fossrox: no, we are following up the previous actions 17:18:29 thank you :) 17:18:53 DNS: you mean that an artwork is needed for 7582? 17:19:33 maybe not in particular for 7582 but i saw other issues where some graphics need to be changed 17:19:53 dont remember which ones atm sorry 17:19:56 quidam: do you think i should split that fsdg software wiki into fixed and not fixed? 17:19:59 yes, but in most cases that is just copying the logo, or at must making it fit first 17:20:02 Sorry; I was late. 17:20:08 Muphrid: that would help 17:20:16 ok i will do so 17:20:19 non-fixed on top 17:20:33 yes 17:20:40 great :) should I add an action for you? 17:21:19 #action Muphrid sort out https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/software-does-not-respect-free-system-distribution-guidelines 17:21:23 there 17:21:23 K 17:22:22 I wonder how up do date the libreplanet wiki list is 17:22:32 and how in sync it is with ours 17:22:34 It's as up to date as people make it... :) 17:23:24 sirgrant seems to be the main contributor nowadays 17:23:54 ok, going back to the bug list 17:23:55 maybe we could autosync the wiki list? 17:24:24 dns: It's probably best to discuss changes to the libreplanet page on the gnu-linux-libre mailing list first, to coordinate with other distros. 17:24:34 ok 17:24:47 DNS: well, in fact I don't see the point on having two, we should just list those in trisquel that are pending to be worked on, and for the rest just link to LP 17:25:30 https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnulinux-libre in case people didn't know 17:27:16 ok, so in any case we need to work in two threads regarding our software: cleaning up the repo and finishing the release 17:27:42 they are to some point independent things, as the release can be done as soon as the packages in the image are good 17:27:58 let's check the buglist there 17:28:06 http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/toutatis-development 17:28:25 i think inclusion from remote wiki is also possible on per request basis, maybe this is something what would work too for you (but i never used on my own this option) 17:29:30 andrew seems to be close to completing the Ubuntu Desktop Guide thing 17:29:46 I'd like to have more info about this 17:30:02 and it should be a community effort, a good manual is very important 17:30:44 quidam: i actually started laying out a template on what should be in a book.. 17:30:58 and a first chapater :) 17:31:08 chris000: sounds good! 17:31:34 quidam: i don't know if it'll ever happen but... 17:31:49 i figure i at least have all the sections based on the support we do... on what should go in it 17:32:11 the books out there right now are wayyy too technical 17:32:13 we had several attempts at making manuals in the past, with little success 17:32:43 well, i don't know if i'll be successful although i'm starting it. i think the real problem will be keeping it up to date. 17:33:02 gnu/linux changes too much. if we had 3 year cycles it would be much easier 17:33:27 this is why I say a good documentation project needs to be community based 17:33:38 hi 17:33:53 sorry i'm late i was on the other channel 17:34:17 any log? 17:34:25 quiliro: hi! question: wasn't there a trisquel manual book? from ramiro if I remember correctly? 17:34:26 the reason i started this was because the book we have and the ones i've looked at are too techy. about half the book we sell is non-tech friendly. but that leaves half a book that makes gnu/linux look hard and is of no usefulness to most users. 17:34:36 or am I making this up in my mind... 17:34:40 quidam: The bot's logging, I think. 17:34:50 er; quiliro 17:34:55 Tab completion fail 17:34:59 jxself: it is 17:35:20 quiliro: we were discussing documentation efforts 17:35:41 quidam: i'm not sure a community book would work well either. i think it really needs someones dedicated attention (and financing) to really get done. but... again. it's not like we have the later. 17:35:47 https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/software-does-not-respect-free-system-distribution-guidelines 17:35:48 http://www.saslibre.com/trisquel.pdf 17:35:48 sorted 17:35:56 there are some which do not have a status 17:36:00 what should i do with them? 17:36:49 quiliro: ah, that's the one! 17:37:04 i am sure ramiro can upload the source which was made on lyx 17:37:18 quiliro: that would be great :) 17:37:29 i will ask him 17:37:44 quiliro: quidam I would love to help with a translation 17:38:23 daroal: you will end up _under_ a rock... ;) 17:38:44 lol 17:38:48 quidam: I deserve that 17:38:54 quidam: should i move Thunderbird and others which do not have a trisquel status to an "Unknown" section? 17:39:05 the book is in spanish? 17:39:10 Muphrid: we should just remove it 17:39:17 quidam: all of them? 17:39:22 thunder1212: i can translate it 17:39:31 quiliro: thunderbird 17:39:33 you mean remove them from the wiki? 17:39:44 quiliro, how? 17:39:49 Muphrid: from the repo 17:39:53 quidam: ok 17:40:04 cleaning it up is a lot of effort, and it was deprecated anyway 17:40:09 thunder1212: the manual 17:40:13 quidam: and what should i do on the wiki about those? leave them on which section? 17:40:37 Muphrid: what do you mean? 17:41:01 or daroal can do it 17:41:06 quidam: I sorted in not fixed, needs review and fixed, and those are among fixed 17:41:16 move them to not fixed? 17:41:22 Muphrid: yes 17:41:24 ok 17:41:40 anything that needs work goes to not-fixed 17:41:53 I will only review that part anyway... 17:42:46 ok, so back to doing a community documentation effort 17:43:00 #topic documentation project 17:43:14 we failed several attempts at this 17:43:59 one thing that I learned is that it should not depend on me, as I have limited time and many tasks already. documentation is independent enough so I can be out of it 17:44:10 about the book, once we get the sources, we could post them at the wiki for the translations team to look upon them (piece by piece), if that's ok with the original authors, of course 17:44:39 and that would also help with keeping them updated 17:44:41 but somebody needs to coordinate it 17:44:58 for each language probably 17:45:16 yes, I was about to say, this is very related to the translation projects 17:45:25 which also need management 17:46:31 there is been a while since I don't review the wiki, how far of having a user manual are we? 17:46:33 do we only use wiki to translate so far? 17:46:58 what about other software like pootle? 17:47:04 maybe we are closer than expected 17:47:35 DNS: pootle works for independent strings, I don't think a manual fits there 17:48:01 fossrox has a lot experience with pootle 17:48:09 fossrox: any comment? 17:48:11 :D 17:48:46 we should have magic-banana and sirgrant to discuss this topic 17:48:53 ok 17:49:14 maybe we can make extra meeting on this 17:49:22 done https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/software-does-not-respect-free-system-distribution-guidelines 17:49:27 let's add it to the agenda for next week and ping them about it, or schedule a meeting for it 17:49:51 Muphrid: great! 17:49:56 quidam: sounds great 17:49:57 woah, those are plenty... 17:50:14 quidam: i did a project with pootle, 1500 translators, over 40 languages, translation of books and videos, any website content, it was all automated, so text was taken from a source, then translated and packed back automatically into layout, you can use pootle if you have the imagination :) 17:50:42 fossrox: interesting 17:50:47 gnu.org uses GNUnited Nations 17:50:54 For a similiar level of automation 17:51:01 http://www.gnu.org/software/gnun/ 17:51:12 But I'm not sure it'd be a good fit as the site's very different. 17:51:37 I was about to ask, because the problem here is dealing with a changing origin 17:52:00 https://trisquel.info/en/issues/5995 this is marked as fixed here 17:52:26 i will update on the wiki 17:52:45 Muphrid: leave it as not fixed, I need to remove it from other versions 17:52:49 ah ok 17:52:55 fixing the latest revision is often not enough 17:53:07 is apt and command-not-found fixed then? 17:53:28 those should be fixed in both lts versions 17:53:31 we translated any kind of text from many formats, including linked databases, pdfs, menu items, just anything, but that required good design approach 17:53:32 ok 17:53:50 well, 2.0 is still alive, so to clarify, fixed in 4 and 6 17:54:42 fossrox: I don't think we lack the tools, we lack the organization... 17:55:42 #action quidam to organize a meeting for revamping the documentation and translation projects 17:55:58 unless somebody wants to take that action, btw! 17:56:05 I could use some help 17:56:35 fossrox: let's have a quick summary of the implementation you used for that meeting, ok? 17:57:07 s/meeting/project/ 17:57:16 and quiliro:, it would be nice to know about the availability of the source of the book for that meeting 17:58:37 ok, so since this discussion spawned from bug 6733, problems in the manual included in the current images, we should discuss what to do with that 17:59:12 the release date is right there, so we need a quick fix 17:59:37 I'll ask andrew for his progress 17:59:58 in the worst case I can leave the manual out of the image, and add a placeholder 18:00:29 btw freenode has memoserv to send offline msgs to registered (with nickserv) irc user 18:00:34 :) 18:01:06 quidam: ideally, the manual could have an offline version but refresh to an updated online one if internet is available 18:01:16 #action quidam ask andrew for progress in #6733 ubuntu manual package 18:01:24 daroal: let's aim for it for future releases 18:01:38 quidam: right, no time now 18:01:44 quidam: i suggested to help with the translation management on the site. or at least the technical side as i work with drupal on a daily basis and ive been involved with building multilingual drupal sites. i dont remember where i posted it and it was around a thousand years ago. 18:03:02 iirc the short term idea was to relieve you of having to deal with giving people the role, adding languages, etc. 18:03:09 malberts: we could look into it again 18:04:00 but i think the bigger problem now is that the translators dont have time to actually translate. 18:04:39 and then there are the fun limitations of drupal's translation system which i don't think can be solved without a very big hammer 18:04:41 malberts: back in the day the site was not prepared for it, as you would need root access to the web server, which is too critical 18:04:59 it works much better now, so we could give it a go 18:05:51 let's discuss that in the documentation/translation meeting 18:06:07 quidam: yes. this isn't such a big priority currently 18:06:23 right now I need to discuss some things before closing the 6.0 images 18:06:33 back to http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/toutatis-development 18:07:00 other than the manual we already went through, there are two blocking bugs in the images 18:07:24 first question: are there more blocking bugs that are not in that list? who volunteers to check? 18:09:03 daroal: did you teach RB-34 to make cricket noises yet? 18:09:21 quidam: no, but it seems like a great enhancement 18:10:09 I just realized ccsm is not in the images 18:10:18 so I'll lower the priority 18:10:58 quidam:talking about ccsm, we should have a way to easily (i.e. graphically) switch between compiz and metacity 18:11:22 quidam: like a long time ago, with the "desktop effects" tab at display properties 18:11:30 daroal: uh, that was dropped upstream 18:12:00 does somebody know of an alternative to that which doesn't imply coding it ourselves or 30MB of dependences? 18:12:43 the hack I added is that "touch ~/.disable-compiz" does what it says in the tin 18:13:12 quidam: and that's documented at... 18:13:27 ...my head 18:13:31 :/ 18:13:58 we could make a very simple control panel application to switch that on and off 18:14:06 quidam: I would love that 18:14:40 some basic pygtk would do 18:14:47 quidam: I mean, I think it would be helpful to many users 18:15:07 daroal: ok, I'll add it to the pile... 18:15:07 daroal: fusion-icon ? 18:15:33 #action quidam to include a compiz-metacity changer 18:15:57 the only remaining blocker we have is DB 18:16:13 I wonder what would happen if I remove that one... 18:17:23 Muphrid: I use that, but I don't think that it's ideal for the default desktop/user 18:17:39 thats reasonable 18:17:50 sorry, what's DB? 18:18:23 malberts: http://packages.trisquel.info/source/brigantia/db 18:18:34 malberts: BDB in fact, berkeley database 18:19:25 it contains a non-free file. I requested a license change for it, and I got it ... in my private mail. I never got them to reply with a public license change 18:19:52 daroal: in short i used tools running in background of pootle and called them with cron to provide functionality which was not there, and hacked the pootle interface to do things it was not doing, it was my first python project in life, i was a total noob, i was even learning the basics of english back then but it did not stop me, i believe you can do same or better, so one noob with ideas ans 18:19:52 i never tried to remove that routine from db, I don't know if it is actually used 18:19:54 scientific approach and one native speaker is what you need, both with love to talk and react to translators needs, we have been like a big family team, the human part was really important, there have been language teams, english proofreaders, translation proofreaders, language coordinators and we two running that all like from behind, almost invisible, i seen translations in real time in the backend 18:19:56 created for weeks by same translators, extremely dedicated people, huge respect for them, you need a bunch of people like that, 20% people in project will do the 80% 18:20:07 link to the db issue: https://trisquel.info/en/issues/5954 18:20:51 anyway, this is to deep to discuss here, if somebody wants to help in that just ping me with it 18:21:16 I'll be working the next days for a RC release this week 18:21:42 fossrox: sounds like you achieved nice results with that, but we'll have to see if that approach fits our size/human resources 18:21:55 daroal: unfortunately it was a long time ago, pootle has drastically changed, the guys from pootle loved that work and said they never seen anything like this, lol 18:22:00 so, until that is done all the rest is low priority in my personal queue 18:22:27 I'm done with my topics 18:23:39 quidam: i'm not sure if there's been an official response to this, but what are your views on only doing LTS releases? its been talked about in the forums 18:24:17 malberts: we will follow (or try) the upstream release cycle 18:24:47 and I don't think they are going to change it 18:25:38 because 6 month releases, stupid as they are (particularly if you don't care about the *~%&! bleeding edge) are good for marketing 18:26:14 and that also works for us, so as long as we can keep up, we will 18:27:32 ok, any other topic? 18:27:38 quidam: ok. another question 18:28:42 somebody mentioned in the forum that Add/Remove Applications utility is useless when the program you are deleting is part of a dependency. It tells you to use synaptic instead (http://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-point-addremove-applications) 18:30:06 dogfooding right now... 18:30:50 malberts: although the "not being able to remove programs with dependencies" is an issue, it doesn't mean that the program is useless; for installing it's more intuitive and simple that synaptic, at least for an unexperienced user 18:31:05 that is a really bad user experience for a general user who doesnt want to dig in packages. Have there been any considerations of using a different program? 18:31:12 ok, so you cannot remove programs that come preinstalled 18:31:28 that affects a tiny percentage of packages 18:31:41 although it could be improved by not showing them to you 18:31:48 ok, yes. useless was too harsh to describe it. 18:31:49 malberts: that doesn't mean that there can't be a better alternative, be it packagekit, a modification of the ubuntu, mint or other ones, but I don't think it's that bad like it is now... 18:33:01 daroal: ok, so there arent any plans to adapt a different program then? 18:33:03 I stuck to that one because I prefer continuity over change, and it was good enough. if somebody can point out a suitable replacement in 24 hours I will test it for inclusion 18:34:08 ok, meeting countdown 18:34:10 10 18:34:13 9 18:34:16 8 18:34:24 7 18:34:25 7 18:34:46 6 5 4 3 2 1 18:35:16 0 18:35:19 -1 18:35:23 #endmeeting