17:00:29 <quidam> #startmeeting development meeting
17:00:29 <Byerley> Meeting started Tue Mar  5 17:00:29 2013 UTC.  The chair is quidam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:29 <Byerley> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
17:00:29 <Byerley> The meeting name has been set to 'development_meeting'
17:00:42 <quidam> ok, we have some important topics today
17:01:42 <quidam> #topic 6.0 release
17:02:08 <quidam> ok, AFAIK the current images are ready to be published
17:02:10 <quidam> BUT
17:02:29 <quidam> I'm right now checking a new bug that was reported about abrowser localization
17:03:01 <quidam> I'm fed up with last minute bugs, they are a symptom that we are doing things poorly
17:03:18 <quidam> we need a proper testing system
17:04:12 <quidam> we need to write a series of tests that all images need to pass before publication
17:04:29 <daroal> quidam: sounds like a great idea
17:04:38 <quidam> a thorough list of steps that at least covers all the modifications we make
17:06:08 <ksuhku> wonder if ubuntu or another derivative has something like that
17:06:46 <quidam> no idea. I think this is one thing we should do on our own, what other projects do may not fit our needs
17:07:50 <daroal> quidam: I'm guessing we'll not be going the route of using testlink or similar, just something properly written in the wiki?
17:07:52 <quidam> ok, I just proved that the localization bug in abrowser is real
17:08:00 <quidam> so, another set of images goes to the trask
17:08:02 <quidam> trash
17:08:30 <quidam> daroal: kill testlink with fire!
17:08:43 <daroal> quidam: I said "or similar" :)
17:09:17 <quidam> daroal: at first a simple checklist in the wiki would do, if we need more control we can implement something with drupal
17:09:26 <daroal> I suppose having a template at the wiki, with child pages for any user who tests a new version is ok
17:10:50 <daroal> if we set something simple like using colors for results, without a better system it will still be quick to have a report at a glance
17:11:10 <quidam> who can work on this?
17:11:30 <daroal> then other page that would make sense alongside that one would be a template for reporting bugs
17:12:22 <quidam> maybe we should bring the topic into the devel list
17:12:36 <daroal> quidam: maybe we should pingall on startmeeting
17:13:01 <quidam> hmm, yes, I'm assuming too much
17:13:14 <starchild> I can work on the drupal side
17:13:25 <starchild> if I can wrap my head around what is actually needed
17:13:47 <quidam> I wonder if is there a way to ping all properly
17:14:34 <daroal> Byerley: pingall development meeting in course
17:14:34 <Byerley> development meeting in course
17:14:34 <Byerley> aklis alsroot Basstard` Byerley cure daroal DNS GNUtoo-m4a785t-m in0cula jxself ksuhku martasd mtjm Muphrid nasek nicocesar onpon4 peabo quidam rah satellit starchild yang_
17:14:34 <Byerley> development meeting in course
17:14:53 <daroal> something like that
17:15:03 <starchild> Byerley: spammer! :-D
17:15:03 <Byerley> starchild: Error: "spammer!" is not a valid command.
17:15:15 <quidam> neat
17:15:59 <yang_> quidam & co. thanks for all the good work that you do...
17:16:05 <jxself> starchild: If I understand it correctly at a minimum there would need to be a check for each package for which a corresponding helper exists. Test the modifications made by the helper, that no problems were introduced, everything still works properly, etc.
17:17:13 <quidam> and also the live cd boot, installer, netinstall, updates, dist-upgrader, adding packages
17:17:33 <quidam> yang_: you are welcome :)
17:18:11 <quidam> my doubt now is... should we release before doing this?
17:18:48 <starchild> I was under the impression that this was for the future dev
17:19:09 <jxself> From reading the forums I get the impression that people are already using 6 and soI suspect that if any truly major issues existed we'd have heard about them?
17:19:39 <quidam> jxself: yes, I can go with that, only minor things should be there
17:19:55 <daroal> quidam: honestly, I feel bad about my own lack of proper testing with this release, and some problems still haunt me, like the apparent inability of the people with AMD machines to use the distro properly...
17:20:07 <quidam> so, we should have it for the next release
17:20:19 <daroal> quidam: but I wouldn't also want to delay the release again because of that, of course
17:20:25 <quidam> amd machines have always failed
17:20:36 <quidam> ok, so let's work on it for next release
17:20:47 <quidam> which leads us to the big topic I wanted for today
17:21:07 <daroal> quidam: but it seems it's worse now, with people having to resort to vesa driver; I remember being workarounds when the DRM thing was found in the Radeon driver
17:21:20 <quidam> #topic release schedule (LTS/STS)
17:21:24 <jxself> It may be people with newer cards.
17:21:33 <Muphrid> I dont have any problem with amd at all
17:21:34 <jxself> But the #topic has been changed...
17:21:57 <quidam> last week I brought up the idea of skipping STS releases
17:22:08 <quidam> have you thought of it?
17:22:41 <daroal> quidam: have you?
17:22:42 <starchild> ubuntu is apparently considering getting rid of STS as well. for a rolling release alongside LTS.
17:22:48 <jxself> If the Ubuntu developers go ahead with that change they're proposing it probably makes sense.
17:22:55 <quidam> to this point I'm pretty sure it is the way to go, so I would need to be convinced otherwise
17:23:04 <jxself> OK.
17:23:23 <quidam> so, we have that ubuntu may or not change to drop STS
17:23:33 <quidam> which means they could do it anytime
17:23:40 <quidam> that is a risk
17:23:59 <daroal> one thing I think is that Ubuntu is to change their roadmap, doing the change ourselves now could mean that we work in something that they'll be working on parallel
17:24:11 <starchild> I wonder how hard it would be to do the rolling thing if ubuntu goes that route?
17:24:11 <jxself> But I doubt they'd do it retroactively - The released STS would continue to be supported for their normal duration, I'm sure.
17:24:22 <daroal> and our solution could not work once (if) they change their roadmap
17:24:39 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> daroal, you mean for ATI graphics cards?
17:24:45 <quidam> one concern I have is that if we go for having STS, I'll publish the 6.0 images this week and I'll never find time to work on them again, as 6.5 is already delayed
17:25:22 <quidam> and that has been happening with all sts images so far, in fact our best release was 4.0
17:25:31 <ksuhku> of course we could also skip one sts, if wanted
17:25:31 <daroal> GNUtoo-m4a785t-m: mostly yes; I never thought there would be any problem with integrated AMD stuff, even though somewhat recently I was pointed towards some problems, but I'm mostly thinking of video cards
17:25:32 <jxself> There is that.
17:25:37 <Basstard`> It's not necessary to do all STS. If any then the one in between, which would be 7.0.
17:25:38 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> starchild, parabola is already rolling
17:25:49 <jxself> OK, so I think I'm onboard with quidam then.
17:25:49 <starchild> GNUtoo-m4a785t-m: yep.
17:26:06 <Muphrid> the only problem is, there is no 12.04 -> 13.04 direct update
17:26:09 <nasek> as an enduser I have been using STS mainly to get the latest versions of software. o the STS where replaced by a more rolling release kind of updating it would be nice. But completely dropping STS without an official alternative for up to date software would be a pity.
17:26:14 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> starchild, I use parabola, sometimes it breaks when -libre repository are not in sync with parabola ones
17:26:15 <quidam> starchild: I don't know how hard would be to do a rolling release, and I have no interest on knowing as rolling releases are a moronic idea
17:26:16 <daroal> I thought also about skipping "the bad" Ubuntu sts, but that woun't work
17:26:26 <Muphrid> and the other is, I suspect ubuntu 12.10 and trisquel 6.5 wont boot in amd machines because of new xorg
17:26:41 <starchild> quidam: that settles it then :-D
17:26:57 <starchild> LTS + properly supported backports
17:27:01 <quidam> I'll rephrase that. they are a moronic idea for any serious use, they are great for enthusiasts and for learning
17:27:07 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> Muphrid, hmmm maybe I should do something abuot ATI
17:27:30 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> I don't have a bad graphic card though
17:27:41 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> so I wonder which one I should get if I decide to do it
17:27:41 <daroal> Muphrid: apparently, with the backported 3.5 kernel they fail to boot already
17:27:58 <Muphrid> daroal: 3.5 kernel and kernel from 12.04?
17:28:04 <Muphrid> xorg from*
17:28:06 <quidam> Muphrid: ubuntu planned big changes to the next sts releases that we should avoid as well
17:28:07 <Muphrid> damn cant write
17:28:10 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> I've some ATI cards and they all work in parabola with the new kernel and xf86-video-ati
17:28:16 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> which is the free xorg driver
17:28:29 <daroal> Muphrid: the combo that was present in some of the Trisquel 6.0 isos, before the latest two ones
17:28:42 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> so maybe we should compile a list of bad cards?
17:28:48 <Muphrid> daroal: I believe that combo had xorg from 12.10 aswell
17:28:49 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> like by using h-node
17:28:50 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> ?
17:29:14 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> I talked about that in the last meeting and I was said it was not a priority for the release
17:29:23 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> s/last/first
17:29:31 <daroal> GNUtoo-m4a785t-m: that's kind of a different topic; but with the soon-to-be standard test reports on the site, we should have a clearer picture
17:29:59 <daroal> GNUtoo-m4a785t-m: about what things work and what don't in which hw configurations
17:30:08 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> ah ok
17:30:15 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> there will be an automatic report...
17:30:35 <quidam> ok, let's go back to topic
17:30:39 <quidam> my proposal is
17:30:49 <GNUtoo-m4a785t-m> so for wifi there will be the ath9k_htc card that will have its firmware released as free software, but I think that for ATI card we could at least try to do something
17:30:56 <quidam> skip sts regardless of what ubuntu decides to do
17:31:20 <quidam> officially support kernel and browser backports (at least)
17:31:40 * jxself is standing by for kernel work
17:31:45 <ksuhku> I'm all for this
17:31:53 <quidam> open an optional, community-based repo with more backports
17:32:02 * GNUtoo-m4a785t-m also knows the kernel , and a bit of Xorg too
17:32:12 <daroal> quidam: yay! let's break it from the inside!
17:32:14 <Muphrid> another repo looks like a good idea
17:32:42 <daroal> quidam: but, with community-based, you mean?
17:33:18 <nasek> would that lead to discuss the goal of "easy-to-follow documentation for volunteer developers"
17:33:24 <daroal> quidam: will it work on requests from the community, but with the usual maintainers, or do you thing it could be community maintained?
17:33:29 <quidam> I mean that community volunteers would provide those packages
17:34:11 <quidam> we opened the door for requests back then with the crowdfunded tasks, it didn't go far
17:34:15 <Muphrid> that should be something like AUR from arch linux?
17:34:16 <daroal> quidam: well, that could work (and be great even), although it will need review
17:34:36 <jxself> muphrid: I hope it's not like AUR. That bring concerns over if and how freedom-related problems are handled.
17:34:47 <Muphrid> jxself: I meant in concept
17:34:54 <quidam> yes, it would need manual approval of the volunteers, and follow a series of rules
17:35:00 <Muphrid> ok
17:35:03 <quidam> but that would be the last step of my proposal
17:35:16 <daroal> quidam: yep, but it's the shinier one :)
17:35:38 <quidam> because you are confused by the shiny things
17:35:46 <daroal> quidam: so, I was initially against skipping the STS, but I think I've changed my mind
17:36:10 <quidam> since I don't care for the bloody edge, I will focus on the base releases
17:36:16 <daroal> quidam: I can see how many people would benefit from just having those essential packages updated on a very-well maintained LTS
17:36:44 <starchild> the problem is what is considered "essential" and how
17:36:44 <quidam> my idea, also, is to keep having 6 month releases
17:36:49 <quidam> the reason is twofold
17:36:50 <daroal> with the "very-well" part coming from being the only release in which to focus
17:37:05 <quidam> since the base will be stable, they will be easy and in time
17:37:51 <quidam> and they will keep the buzz about the project the way the sts releases did
17:38:49 <quidam> ok, so all in favor?
17:38:56 <ksuhku> o/
17:38:58 <Muphrid> i'm in
17:39:00 <jxself> Sounds like a plan, sir.
17:39:04 <nasek> #agreed
17:39:10 <starchild> sounds good
17:39:18 <jxself> \o/
17:39:44 <daroal> quidam: ok, let's see how that goes, it should leave plenty time to focus on things we usually leave behind
17:39:59 <quidam> all opposed?
17:40:22 <quidam> Byerley: crickets
17:40:22 <Byerley> quidam: Error: "crickets" is not a valid command.
17:40:26 <quidam> too bad
17:40:33 <ksuhku> hehe
17:40:44 <daroal> it seems to me that this approximate idea has been in the talk at the forums for quite a long time, so I doubt there will be many opposed
17:40:48 <quidam> #agreed Change the release schedule to LTS only
17:41:13 <quidam> #action quidam write a more detailed description of the plan
17:42:12 <quidam> we didn't set any actions about the testing suite
17:42:16 <jxself> That gives us about a year until the next LTS, 14.04.
17:42:58 <daroal> quidam: that's because the reception was lukewarm, but you can #action "find a volunteer for..."
17:43:12 <quidam> I will write to the devel list to get it going
17:43:21 <daroal> quidam: ok
17:43:59 <quidam> maybe we can focus on making the test system, and get the testers by creating a forum badge "I am a tester" or something like that
17:44:10 <quidam> let's continue the brainstorm in the list
17:44:13 <daroal> quidam: sounds good
17:44:31 <Basstard`> Aye, agree as well to only LTS. Though one STS between LTS releases would still have some place for few reasons, but they are probably too few. And also, STS with odd numbers (7,9,11), and LTS with even numbers (6,8,10).
17:44:33 <quidam> #action quidam bring up test system discussion into the devel list
17:44:34 <daroal> quidam: people have been asking for more role badges for some time too
17:45:02 <jxself> Perhaps this provides an opportunity for that.
17:45:25 <quidam> we need forum mods
17:45:29 <Muphrid> Forum Overlord Muphrid
17:45:33 <ksuhku> :)
17:46:09 <quidam> Forum Overlord looks like a good badge
17:46:15 <jxself> :)
17:46:17 <quidam> ok, any other topic?
17:46:19 <daroal> quidam: set a topic for "website enhancements"
17:46:36 <quidam> #topic website enhancements
17:46:51 <quidam> #chair daroal
17:46:51 <Byerley> Current chairs: daroal quidam
17:47:08 <daroal> quidam: so, I understand you've changed some permissions so wiki revisions are visible to editors, right?
17:48:00 <nasek> quidam: speak of documentation for volunteer developers.
17:48:31 <quidam> daroal: they should be visible to all registered users
17:49:08 <daroal> quidam: so you didn't change anything?
17:49:54 <quidam> daroal: well, I changed that
17:50:03 <quidam> daroal: why
17:50:07 <daroal> quidam: great, that's what was needed
17:50:31 <quidam> good
17:50:55 <daroal> quidam: other thing, which was requested by Lembas (and maybe a long time ago by some other) is having a "new pages" for the wiki; it would be nice, mostly to fight spam
17:52:01 <daroal> and that brings to a small topic I wanted to bring
17:52:12 <quidam> that is a block that may be provided by drupal on its own, otherwise there must be a module that does it
17:52:32 <daroal> quidam: great, action that?
17:52:35 <quidam> #action quidam enable new wiki pages block
17:52:42 <daroal> then, the spam
17:53:05 <daroal> A week or so ago, I changed all the captchas in the various forms to use the math captcha
17:53:18 <quidam> was it any good?
17:53:36 <daroal> as that's the only one which is accessible of the ones we had installed, and it seems it's one of the only reasonable ones available
17:53:53 <daroal> we've got very little spam since then, but
17:54:07 <jxself> Until the spammers adapt?
17:54:27 <daroal> a) it happens almost any time I change anything there, maybe because they use automated solutions that fail when it's changed, but they will come back again
17:54:53 <daroal> and b) there seems to have been a _lot_ of new registered users, the kind of that usually become spammers at some time
17:55:24 <daroal> so, b) has always happened, maybe it's worse now, I'm not sure, but in any case, maybe we should do something about it
17:55:46 <starchild> you can add a not-a-spammer role like drupal.org does if the current scheme proves unsuccessful
17:56:17 <quidam> starchild: how does that work?
17:56:18 <daroal> I'm totally against putting a hurdle to legitimate users that have just registered, so, what do you thing we could do about these lots of accounts?
17:57:00 <starchild> quidam: it's a simple role. people request to be added to the role and a mod adds them after making sure they are legit.
17:57:05 <daroal> starchild: that sounds nice, and it would help our "accepted" users, but I don't think it would help with this other problem
17:58:03 <starchild> drupal.org uses to allow writing privs for the documentation
17:58:04 <daroal> I mean, it's nice to remove captchas to "trusted" users, but we can't make it so people that just registered can't use the website normally
17:58:42 <daroal> but maybe I'm misunderstanding you, I'll take a look at that
17:59:17 <jxself> Can forum messages from new users be held for moderation?
17:59:26 <Basstard`> How about first post has to be checked before being visible?
17:59:27 <quidam> uh
17:59:53 <quidam> moderating everything is a tall order
18:00:05 <jxself> Not everything.
18:00:09 <jxself> That would be too much.
18:00:35 <jxself> Only a) new usrs and b) only their first time posting. Both would need to be true.
18:00:35 <daroal> jxself: Basstard` both things are possible, but with a worldwide community, it could pass some time before somebody's urgent message got approved, and that would deter people
18:01:03 <starchild> a combination of captcha + no-spammer role should do nicely
18:01:23 <starchild> captcha for new unvetted users. no captha for vetted ones.
18:01:33 <jxself> daroal: Could be one of the roles of these forums moderators discussed earlier.
18:01:42 <jxself> er; jobs
18:02:10 <daroal> jxself: yes, that would lower the load and the response time... I'm still not convinced, though
18:02:29 <quidam> the problem is that if you cannot register and post right away, most people will never post
18:02:50 <starchild> that's correct
18:03:03 <daroal> quidam: that's exactly what I fear; on the other hand, when you post to a forum, a certain delay in an answer is to be expected
18:03:07 <starchild> hence my proposal :)
18:03:14 <daroal> so if we were quite efficient about it
18:03:24 <quidam> -1
18:03:49 <daroal> starchild: but, just to be sure, with your proposal, wouldn't it be needed for any new user to "ask for permission" before being able to actually post?
18:04:08 <quidam> I prefer to have spam and make the cleanup easier than to moderate everything and annoy newcomers
18:04:27 <starchild> daroal: not necessarily. that's one route. another route is they can immediately post but are presented a captcha.
18:04:32 <daroal> starchild: because mind that the spammers can pass a captcha without many problems
18:04:40 <ksuhku> a flag as spam button was suggested
18:04:55 <jxself> Such a button's not a bad idea.
18:05:05 <jxself> Hide posts if enough people say it's spam?
18:05:16 <Muphrid> like youtube does?
18:05:26 <Muphrid> not bad
18:05:33 <daroal> well, there are several problems with that
18:05:35 <quidam> jxself: that I like
18:05:46 <daroal> 1: the forum is linked to mailing lists
18:06:16 <jxself> The mailing list archives would need cleaned up, too, for any spam that gets through.
18:06:21 <daroal> 2: when a spammer is found, it usually gets tagged really fast by some of our very quick spam hunters (and usually deleted pretty fast also)
18:06:22 <quidam> in fact we should improve the forum by making it more like reddit or other current social network implementations
18:06:38 <starchild> jxself: how?
18:06:47 <jxself> starchild: It's mailman. :)
18:07:13 <quidam> the good thing about voting on comments is that not only spam is filtered by the community, but also that good comments pop up
18:07:24 <daroal> and 3: some posts could elicit a bad response ending with the poster tagged, maybe without spamming being the reason
18:07:40 <starchild> quidam: agreed on forum improvements in general
18:07:58 <daroal> quidam: yeah, well, there are many bad examples of what is wrong with that schema
18:08:21 <daroal> quidam: I agree that we could do with more cats on Trisquel, but even then...
18:08:41 <quidam> trisquel gone wild
18:08:48 <daroal> :)
18:08:54 <Muphrid> r/trisquelgonewild
18:08:55 <starchild> maybe if a certain number of spam tags are given then the user are assigned a spammer role waiting for deletion by a moderator?
18:09:27 <daroal> in any case, we need to work quite a bit into this, but it's secondary to the release stuff
18:09:35 <quidam> yes
18:09:48 <daroal> but we should have some targets for Q2 for the website and community
18:10:33 <starchild> the email privacy issue should be adressed as well
18:10:42 <daroal> so we should look at small, drop-in stuff now, and think about wider changes for later
18:10:50 <starchild> that's kinda sorta very important
18:11:17 <quidam> we need to work on this as a project on itself, the spam is connected to all the rest of the web
18:11:20 <daroal> starchild: yep; there's a very, very partial solution now for new users, which are informed of the connection between the lists and the forums, but it's just a patcj
18:11:23 <daroal> patch
18:11:41 <daroal> quidam: makes sense
18:11:53 <quidam> maybe it is time to separate the lists and forums?
18:12:04 <daroal> quidam: I don't think so
18:12:16 <quidam> I'd like to get some numbers on how many posts come from each way
18:12:35 <jxself> I don't know; I like them being connected. Otherwise it seems there are people in two disconnected camps.
18:12:40 <daroal> quidam: I could do a poll, but I think that many of the helping hands come from the list, many times helping people that asked at the forum
18:13:16 <daroal> quidam: so we have a very real user case here, [quidamofthepast] took a nice decision back then
18:13:22 <daroal> *use case
18:13:55 <quidam> ok
18:14:19 <quidam> let's focus on this right after the release
18:14:28 <daroal> quidam: ok, #action that
18:14:47 <daroal> #nick trisquel_community
18:15:10 <daroal> #action trisquel_community focus on solving the spam problem after the release
18:15:43 <quidam> #agreed focus on website improvements (better social, less spam) after the release
18:16:35 <quidam> I'm not sure what mes did we do there
18:16:49 <quidam> mess
18:16:57 <daroal> quidam: none, the meetbot needs to know a nick to be able to assign an action to it
18:17:17 <quidam> ok, any other topic?
18:17:20 <daroal> we can now say that the trisquel community has talked :)
18:17:26 <daroal> not from my side
18:17:43 <starchild> the one suggested by nasek
18:18:14 <starchild> he's gone :/
18:18:21 <daroal> starchild: yeah, sorry, I forgot!
18:19:13 <daroal> starchild: I would like to ask him about what are the perceived needs for that
18:19:37 <starchild> yes. quite an important topic that one.
18:19:38 <quidam> we need to improve the development tools and document them
18:19:44 <quidam> that will go to aklis
18:20:26 <quidam> we need a better git instance, I vote for gitorious (local, not using gitorious.org)
18:20:38 <quidam> but we can discuss this in a future meeting
18:20:53 <daroal> quidam: yes, maybe the first #action would be to pass that for next week
18:21:40 <quidam> #action quidam bring up development tools improvement and documentation in next meeting
18:21:44 <quidam> we are done then
18:22:01 <quidam> 5
18:22:05 <daroal> 4
18:22:07 <jxself> 3
18:22:31 <Basstard`> 4
18:22:37 <starchild> 2
18:23:20 <quidam> close enough
18:23:22 <daroal> Basstard`: I think you actually meant a 1 :)
18:23:27 <quidam> #endmeeting