Fundraising campaign: Privacy Friendly Mail (TLS/OpenGPG/etc) Software
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I'm sharing a /suspicion/, not a /conviction/ - and, therefore, I'm not "accusing" anyone of anything.
I'm not saying that Mailpipe /is/ this, or that. Only what it /might be/, based on what I know.
As for me being "paranoid"...
My suspicion comes from 10 years of research, already, about the mentioned "real bad guys". Through which I've learned that they do, indeed, sign some of their projects - as well as controlled movements and organizations - with symbols and names that can be associated with them (and used to identify their hidden hand).
I've already said (above) that these kind of signatures are not supposed to be known by other people who are not part of, or related to, such groups. So, they're not "hints" for the general population. But, only something that only the most well-informed part of the population is (now) aware of.
I only share this kind of suspicions, in here, because I think they're something important, I should warn people about. And, I leave for all of you to decide what to believe.
"I've already said (above) that these kind of signatures are not supposed to be known by other people who are not part of, or related to, such groups. So, they're not "hints" for the general population. But, only something that only the most well-informed part of the population is (now) aware of."
Ok, so this signatures are not made for the general population, I got this. In your opinion, there are placed on the websites in order to show other bad companies "we are doing bad things as well!" or which "selected circle" of people should know about this, and why want the companies to know them?
What benefit does a company gain using such a "secret sign"?
I really can't imagine a single case in which it would be an advantage nowadays.
Companies have all kind of networks;
Perhaps in medival times it was neccessary to print a secret sign on a flag so informed men saw it wandering around;
Don't you like taking credit for your work? Especially, the one you consider to be particularly good? Like, one which you would consider to be a "master piece"? (I /suppose/ that may be one of the reasons...)
I know that a lot of these people also have a specific type of personality that has feelings of grandiosity and of being special, just because they're part of a /secret/ group. And seem to like to (discretely) brag about it, before the people who are unaware of what they're doing. (I suppose it may give them yet another sense of superiority, to do things in front of other people, that they know the latter don't get... Like, why does this guy - http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=157068.msg934912#msg934912 - mention a secret society, on mainstream TV, if that society is supposed to be secret?)
(Although, in this specific case of "mind control" - as I said - from what I know, these are symbols only known by a relatively small group of people. And, a lot of people who use them, don't even know why they're doing it, or what these symbols mean.)
I also know that, for the religious type of symbols, the specific cult followers believe those symbols to "give them power" - so I've read, from a former KGB agent. (I suppose, like a catholic priest who believes that holding a cross makes the devils go away, or something. I don't know. I'm not religious.)
As to who can identify the "mind control" ones - or is/was only supposed to - I don't know above which level, or circle, that happens. But, surely, way above, in the top ones, that, ultimately, control everything.
Can you please, please try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is a part of a huge conspiracy that you don't want anybody to find out about?
Think. You don't want anybody to find out about it. If they do, the conspiracy is destroyed. If you are connected to it, your life is destroyed. You would have to be incredibly mentally insane to want "credit for your work".
It doesn't matter if a "symbol" is "only known by a relatively small group of people", because apparently, you're one of those special people. And so is every conspiracy theorist, with regard to their choice conspiracy theory. So imagine the scenario where one, just one, person is convinced by these conspiracy theorists that maybe it's worth looking into. They do some investigating, find some evidence, more investigating ensues, and it's all downhill from there; the conspiracy is a huge failure, all because some idiot decided that he wanted "credit" for doing something that nobody wants him to do.
Conspiracy theorists are conspiracy theorists because they feel a sense of comfort in "knowing" the "truth" that they dreamed up. That's why we still have people that believe that the Earth is flat, that 9/11 was an inside job, and that the symbol of God's approval of the American Revolution on the U.S. seal represents a plot to overthrow the U.S. government. It's all silly, and when you spend your time on crap like this, you distract yourself from addressing real issues, not to mention make everyone think you're insane.
I am a member!
There is a spiritual satanic portion to this too. Those drives are not easily understood by normal right thinking people. You give far too much credit to those in the conspiracy, as if they will think like you or I do, and therefore behave in ways we are familiar with. They will not. Criminals think differently, there are skewed aspects and strange blind spots in their logic and focus. Their base is different. They absolutely must give notice and leave clues, on purpose or not, of what they are up to, of who they are.
Truth is the farthest thing from comfort. The truth is very uncomfortable. But people who seek it are willing to accept the discomfort if only to know "the truth".
What truth is, and whether it is dreamed up or not, is a much larger area of debate with legitimate support and lack of evidence on both sides of many issues.
"Conspiracy theorist" is a label. It's been built to be used to shut down open debate. It may work temporarily from time to time, but it will not change the underlying facts--true or false--that are not being addressed.
> "Conspiracy theorist" is a label. It's been built to be used to shut down open
> debate. It may work temporarily from time to time, but it will not change the
> underlying facts--true or false--that are not being addressed.
To be perfectly frank, "conspiracy theorist" is a term of endearment. Theories are, in science, backed by substantial evidence. What conspiracy theorists do more appropriately warrants the label "conspiracy conjecturer" or "conspiracy speculator". No evidence for the conspiracy is ever given. Its existence is just asserted. The only "evidence" ever given is that some symbol kind of looks like objective X, or if you draw a few lines in it it kind of looks like evil symbol Y, or it kind of looks like Z happened.
The symbolism bullshit is used in end-of-the-world prophecies, too. 666 = world ends on 666 A.D.! 666 = 06/06/06 = world ends on June 6, 2006! Mayan calander cycle ends = world ends on December 2012! Though what conspiracy theorists do is more like what some crappy movie whose name I don't remember did: 666 upside down is 999 = the antichrist comes in 1999. Whether conspiracy theorist of end-of-the-world prophecies, it's all just finding some coincidental connection to something else to make a bullshit assertion.
+1
I am a member!
Conspiracy conjecturer or conspiracy speculator are also labels. Fernando has given over 20 links in his posts. I wouldn't call that no evidence for his rationale.
It might not be good evidence. It might not be worthy of certain peoples time or opinion. He backed up his thoughts without end of the world scenarios.
Some people are suspect of the project. PayPal put a hold on the funds. It's not like everything is pristine there. Whether mind control is involved I don't know. It seems pretty far fetched, but who knows. I'll entertain the thought among others until the final results are in, if they ever will be.
What is amazing is that a thread like this has gotten over 50 responses while others that would seem to be more important get far fewer. That's not a criticism, its an observation. There clearly is an interest in this sort of stuff.
>PayPal put a hold on the funds.
Paypay is a criminal organization, they do this all the time to countless people, just because they can.
Here's but the tip of the iceberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paypal#Criticism
[deleted comment, because it appeared in the wrong place...]
[The following is a response to comment "#53", made by "trisq", on "12 September, 2013 - 18:04" - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/fundraising-campaign-privacy-friendly-mail-tlsopengpgetc-software?page=1#comment-42505 - that, for some reason, keeps appearing in the wrong place...]
+1
(I really don't come here for this... And have better things to do, than to talk about this kind of subjects... Being a pessimist about it all, I always have to find the patience - even when exposing it, in a more serious manner, on my own publication - to talk about it... So, to make it clear, I don't mention this kind of things, in here, because they're something I "like" talking about, or something that I feel an "urge" to, in places where it may not be a proper thing to do it... Nor do I decide to investigate this kind of subjects, because I have some strange pleasure in delving into conspiracies, of any kind... But, finding again the patience to respond, or to add more to what I've said, I'll just add that...)
This kind of things, that I denounce, here (and, again, from sources that have, through the years, proven to be credible persons - and, which I denounce, because I think they're something important, I should warn people about) are the work of, not only /insidious/ people, but also (truly) /insane/ ones. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--FXqsr4ZvM#t=05m46s + http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4736.htm)
(And, that's even why this kind of things are leaked out. Because, some of the people involved in it, who are not as insane as the ones on the top, eventually get to know more about the "big picture" of what they're involved in, and realize what a crazy endeavour the whole set of these kind of projects is, and don't want to go "all the way", after all.)
No one, in their right mind, has dreams of controlling, surveilling and enslaving everyone on the Planet. And, that's why it's difficult for (normal) people to comprehend such a mentality, and to believe that such people exist. (The same way that it is difficult for a normal person to comprehend the mind of a psychopath, who has no conscience or feelings of empathy, at all - and, which is what some of these people are...)
Most people just want to "live and let live". But, in their naivety, they forget that there are other people who don't think like that. And, most people are also just not aware of how insidious, thoughtful and organized such latter people can be or become.
Anyway...
Instead of making guesses, all that anyone needs to do, in order to find out if what I'm saying is true, is to research about this on their own, if they want to, and make their own judgement. I always leave links to support what I say. And, I don't expect anyone to believe what I say, just because I said so.
And, concerning the "clues", that these people, themselves, leave...
Yes, some of them do like to brag about it, even explicitly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vka7Da6e9LY#t=03m35s + http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm) before the ones they consider to be stupid. But, they mostly do it in a very subtle manner (notice the name on the card: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2002-08/your-id-please-citizen + the details in the video: http://vimeo.com/44583147) when doing it before the general population. Because they know that most people simply don't notice it and/or don't get it, and also because they think that they can always, ultimately, determine what people believe in, by brainwashing them through the controlled media, and that the few people who can see things for what they really are, are, and will always be, a small minority, which they can easily repress, intimidate and control.
I am a member!
I know what you mean. I don't look for such things either. Deep research ultimately leads back to and through historical facts and archetypes to some pretty primitive things. So symbolic and dreamlike at times that it can be superficially mistaken for being made up or just plain crazy.
It is easier to laugh than to accept the fact that some people of great success or popularity are scary individuals, fantastic liars, and devious, far far worse than anyone we may know in our families or circles of acquaintances. So it's all just too hard to believe.
For some, after a while, that type of mechanism no longer works.
And then, while every crazy story or scary symbol is not immediately seen as absolute truth, the previously closed door has opened a bit and new things may enter again. Much of it debatable, but the debate has shifted into a new phase and learning can continue.
I'm not sure why that is a difficult or frightening concept to grasp. It's probably just not a comfortable place to go. Many people prefer not to go there.
Yes. Most people prefer to believe in what they /want/ to be true, rather than face the possibility that what sounds /horrible/ might actually /be/ the truth... And they will, ultimately, pay a price for that. Like many, who have been caught off-guard by this economic and civilizational Collapse (that me and others warned about, with years in advance) have paid. And, like many, who were caught off-guard, concerning what they thought couldn't happen in Europe, in the first half of the 20th century, have paid, also... (But, let's hope that such a price is not as high as it seems, right now - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/nsa-decryption-capabilities#comment-42221 - and, that a significant number of people do wake up to all of this, and are able to put an end to it...)
But, just to finish what I said... Since, some people, in here, seem to find this warning pretty "far-fetched", when I speak of "mind control"...
When I speak about "mind control", I'm talking about the /ultimate/ goal of this type of projects - not their immediate goal. Since that, the purpose of these type of (possible) traps is merely to be able to surveil everyone. That is, to record all their communications and interactions... The "mind control" aspect of it all, comes from the purpose of such type of surveillance.
If there are people out there whose objective is to control everyone (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm), and if they indeed do think that the best way to do it, is by controlling people's minds, rather than by force (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_YFKyhQMI), then, they, obviously, have to (try to) get inside everyone's minds, in order to study them. (To know who they are, what they are, how they think, what they think about, what they like and dislike etc.) Or, in other words, they'll have to know about everything that comes through everyone's minds, at any time. So that, they can study the whole of the population, and their subgroups, and develop better ways of brainwashing, controlling and manipulating such groups and individuals... And, how will such people do that, if they don't have the possibility to interview everyone, all the time, or cannot count on the latter's willingness to be subjected to that?
(The answer is:) They incentive everyone to share their thoughts in a medium where they can record and archive all those same thoughts, for present and later study (i.e. the Internet). Being that the reason why people are incentivized: to always interact "online" (social networks); to use electronic mail (that can be intercepted, kept and read by these same people's agents); to share their small thoughts, that occasionally come through their heads, or to say "what they're doing", on "Twitter"; to say "what they're thinking about" on Facebook; etc... Being that the reason why you'll find "mind control" symbolism in some of this surveillance projects or networks.
Ultimately, it's all part of a giant scheme to study the whole population, in order to develop better ways of controlling it (i.e. of controlling people's minds).
If you all want to know more about this, pay attention to the very likely launch of the English version of a book called "The Tavistock Institute", written by the former KGB agent, Daniel Estulin. (http://www.trineday.com/)
> Most people prefer to believe in what they /want/ to be true, rather than face
> the possibility that what sounds /horrible/ might actually /be/ the truth
The irony is that the conspiracies you believe in are exactly this. They're things you want to be true, because you can't stand the idea that not everything has a purpose; it has to be all part of some master plan. The idea makes you feel more in control, because you "know the truth". In fact, you use very powerful confirmation bias to keep the belief intact in your head. You might even be very intelligent; higher intelligence helps with rationalizing stupid beliefs.
This is why I said before: most people are reasonably intelligent. The problem with conspiracy theorists is not that they are unintelligent, but that they misapply their intelligence toward confirming stupid beliefs that make them feel comfortable, rejecting evidence against the belief and accepting even the tiniest indication that the belief is true (such as a symbol that kind of sort of looks like another symbol if you draw a couple lines in it). The same applies to other types of stupid beliefs, like creationism and belief in a flat Earth, though their reasons for believing the stupid shit they believe is different from conspiracy theorists.
You will probably ignore what I'm saying here and continue to look for reasons to believe the crazy shit you believe, because the very idea that you might be wrong is too much for you to handle. Or you'll tell me to read your links again so that I can discover "the truth".
Don't get me wrong; there is some truth in your ramblings. But you're dead wrong if you think the parts you do get right are a part of a huge master conspiracy, rather than varying results of independent actions from several people with different objectives. Mind control, for example, is studied mostly by advertisers. No, it's not because they're cooperating with the government in some massive project to create 1984, it's because they want to trick people into buying their crap more effectively.
I love all this symbolism stories, dissident writings and conspiracy theories, for me, are just forms of control, TO keep you from living, basically, with one panic button attach under your index finger.
It does not matter which side you are in, or what government you will support, someone, is always trying to fill your cup with more dung, you can handle in a day! Intentionally, you will draw your line, and your tolerance levels will rule the day!
Example: I choose Trisquel by accident, on my own reconnaissance, not someones else opinion OR GUIDANCE. Yet, is not a perfect operating system and the parameters are not that simple, but there is some kind of Ave Purisima to it.
Anyhow this is my 3 bitcoins donation to this forum.
I am a member!
The Freedom Box project is sponsored by the FSF and by Eben Moglen, who I see as one of the true fighters for software freedom and a real person of principles. The project is definitely very ambitious and has so far taken much longer than expected to get going, but it does seem very promising if it can actually be made to work. Moglen has achieved more for software freedom and fighting the crypto wars of the 90's, as well as being very instrumental in GPL, Creative Commons, Wikipedia, and others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Moglen).
As a side note, some months ago I visited the freedomboxfoundation.org website and realized that they used google analytics and they embedded a youtube video on their front page. I wrote one of the organizers at the Software Freedom Law Center (softwarefreedom.org) to let them know and suggest that the aforementioned seemed to be contrary to the idea of privacy. As far as I can tell they did remove both google analytics and the embedded youtube video. I never received a response though.
I do really hope Freedom Box becomes a usable product and through it perhaps a real mesh network can be started.
Also, regarding Mailpile. Moglen made a USD $4000+ donation to the project, an endorsement that I see as something very positive.
I don't know all the people working on Mailpile. One of them though, Smari McCarthy worked on the Collateral Murder video with Wikileaks and has been subsequently investigated by the USG. Somewhere on his blog there is some proof of this in the way of FOIA requests. This seems to give the project, in my opinion, some good karma as far as I can tell.
If you don't know who Eben Moglen is, this speech he delivered at Re:publica 2012 might be a good place to start:
https://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia
Cheers.
I am a member!
As far as the WiFi discussion goes, Think Penguin has great customer service and great products, and spending $40 on a WiFi card that does not use proprietary firmware or binary blobs is a very good idea. Also, it promotes development of free solutions in other areas, as Chris has pointed out.
One question I do have about Think Penguin is the following: I assumed that 25% of profits were automatically donated to Trisquel, but I remember reading somewhere that unless you request this when placing an order, this does not happen automatically. I unfortunately did not make the explicit request, given how the advertisement on the right margin reads. I was a bit sad to think that the 25% donation may no have been made from my purchases. Is this the case?
I am a member!
If you visit via the advertisement or directly: libre.thinkpenguin.com then you'll see a 'donation' product added to the shopping cart automatically. This is for Trisquel, which ultimately helps fund Rubén's travel expenses to conferences like LibrePlanet, and potentially development (some day?). If you post a link (wherever that may be) I encourage you to use libre.thinkpenguin.com. The FSF, Trisquel, etc use this link.
Regardless of the link though the money coming into ThinkPenguin is largely going right back into improving support for or access to free software friendly hardware. It takes a significant amount of money to really do anything significant so there is a lot left to be desired as far as what we (ThinkPenguin) are doing as it relates to hardware.
Good things: ThinkPenguin is fully funded and employing numerous individuals (myself full time, and others part time). ThinkPenguin is also able to contribute to Trisquel, the FSF, and various other projects working on development of free software or free software advocacy. The FSF gets 10% from sales (yes, not just the profits) on certain auction sites. Trisquel gets 25% from those who purchase through libre.thinkpenguin.com.
Bad things: There isn't enough money coming in to produce a truly 100% free software laptop or desktop. The laptops and desktops are just compatible with 100% free operating systems like Trisquel & Parabola GNU/Linux right now.
With significant growth much more can be done to fix the hardware and software problems. We aren't there yet although have been working on a new web site, a tiny bit of marketing, and improving our hardware offerings for some time. I think for a company just 5 years old with no outside funding we've done a pretty good job. Most of the progress that has been made has been made in the past 2 years. I hope to see to it that there is more funding for a 100% free software distribution and non-x86 truly free software hardware to match in the coming years.
I am a member!
Thank you for your response, it certainly clarifies my question regarding the 25% donation. I am personally very happy to give my business to your company, and even more so after reading your post. Many of us are anxious to see more work done in terms of free hardware, but as you say it is an expensive venture. I hope at least to see more computers using coreboot in the near future. I personally do all I can to support free software and will continue to do so as well.
Rest assured that I will continue to recommend Think Penguin!
"I don't know all the people working on Mailpile. One of them though, Smari McCarthy worked on the Collateral Murder video with Wikileaks and has been subsequently investigated by the USG. Somewhere on his blog there is some proof of this in the way of FOIA requests. This seems to give the project, in my opinion, some good karma as far as I can tell."
That is, unfortunately, another thing that only adds to my suspicion... Because, the "WikiLeaks" project, that must be the "alternative" media organization that I have ever seen be most promoted by the corporate media, is, in fact, a CIA project, that has already been denounced by a credible author, that I've repeatedly mentioned in this thread - the former KGB agent, who gives speeches in the European Parliament, Daniel Estulin.
"WikiLeaks" is all about: spreading the idea of "insecurity" on the Internet (by allowing "classified" information to be easily spread), that will justify more control (/censorship) over it (pay attention to the laws that will be passed, in the near future, because of this); spreading disinformation, and propaganda, from the part of the establishment (I can give arguments about this, but don't think this is the place to do it); and, surely, to serve as a trap for people who want to denounce (really) important stuff. Being the "Collateral Murder video" leak, surely just a cynical leak, made to promote WikiLeaks, and one that doesn't really hurt the establishment, itself, since that, it doesn't change people's opinion concerning the Invasion of Iraq.
You can read all about what Estulin has to say about WikiLeaks, in a book he wrote about it: http://trineday.com/paypal_store/product_pages/9781937584115-Deconstructing_Wikileaks/index.html
Concerning the Freedom Box project,
As I said earlier, in this thread, not everyone working for (or helping) projects or institutions that may have bad intentions, is a bad person, aware of such projects' or institutions' (possible) ultimate goals...
I don't know who Eben Moglen is, and I'll take a look at the speech you linked to. But, I guess he's just someone who, like the FSF (who I, most definitely, don't suspect of being ill-intentioned), just didn't (unlike me) see anything suspicious in what is (or appears to be) just another Free Software project.
After all, if it does stand up to its intentions - of building a truly secure network for private communications - it seems like a good idea, doesn't it? And, my problem with it, is not even the concept, in itself, but the possibility that this particular implementation of it may not be as secure as it promises - and that, therefore, its use may constitute a trap.
And, concerning the idea, itself...
Remember that, what cannot be decrypted today, will be so, in the Future. And that, the human being (in its way of thinking) is (in its different subtypes, obviously) always basically the same, no matter what nationality or time era s/he lives in. And, even if such network truly encrypts its communications in a way that cannot be decrypted by the powers-that-be today, they can simply archive such communications, to be used for later study, in the Future.
Cheers.
On 16/09/13 10:10, Fernando Negro wrote:
> That is, unfortunately, another thing that only adds to my
> suspicion... Because, the "WikiLeaks" project, that must be the
> "alternative" media organization that I have ever seen be most
> promoted by the corporate media [...]
The corporate media rides on what's popular, and typically the reason is
for money. Greed rules the world (I'm not sure if that's a conspiracy or
an accepted fact).
> [...] is, in fact, a CIA project, that has already been denounced by
> a credible author, that I've repeatedly mentioned in this thread -
> the former KGB agent, who gives speeches in the European Parliament,
> Daniel Estulin.
Who is Julian Assange then? Were the cypherpunks a CIA front as well?
> "WikiLeaks" is all about: spreading the idea of "insecurity" on the
> Internet (by allowing "classified" information to be easily spread),
> that will justify more control (/censorship) over it (pay attention
> to the laws that will be passed, in the near future, because of
> this);
There are many excuses for limiting our freedom. 9/11 was one of them.
WikiLeaks is another. That's not necessarily a reason to believe there
is a conspiracy involved.
> the "Collateral Murder video" leak [...] doesn't change people's
> opinion concerning the Invasion of Iraq.
Very doubtful. At least my own opinion of the war in Iraq was
strengthened by the release of the WikiLeaks cables.
> After all, if it does stand up to its intentions - of building a
> truly secure network for private communications - it seems like a
> good idea, doesn't it? And, my problem with it, is not even the
> concept, in itself, but the possibility that this particular
> implementation of it may not be as secure as it promises - and that,
> therefore, its use may constitute a trap.
I agree that there is cause for concern.
Andrew.
1) The corporate media rides on what's in the interest of corporate interests to be known - not, necessarily, on what's "popular". (And, always tries to be silent on the rest.) The author that I mentioned, for example, is a pretty "popular" one. Have you ever heard of him, in the corporate media?
2) Julian Assange was an unknowing CIA puppet, before he got access to (really sensitive) information (concerning the type of surveillance that I talk about), that he wasn't supposed to. And, that's why he's now being persecuted. (For anything else, read the book...) I don't know what you mean by "cypherpunks"...
3) Yes. And "Anonymous", and the likes, are other front groups that serve that same purpose. (http://www.prisonplanet.com/lulzsecs-fbi-informant-leader-hinted-at-cia-connection.html) What I say, concerning this, doesn't come from me. It comes from Estulin, that has sources even in several of the Western intelligence agencies. (http://www.danielestulin.com/2011/06/21/el-objetivo-de-wikileaks-es-cerrar-internet-daniel-estulin-autor-de-desmontando-wikileaks/ + http://www.danielestulin.com/2012/02/01/el-papel-de-anonymous/)
4) "Strengthened", not "changed".
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A healthy dose of skepticism is good, but when taken to the extreme I believe it's counterproductive. Also, I think a lot of this speculation takes on a very simplistic view of the world. Things are a lot more messy and chaotic than that, in my opinion.
Regarding Wikileaks, I cannot possibly see how this saga can have played in the favor of the USG. Quite on the contrary, from what I see. Wikileaks, and now Snowden have weakened the strategical dominance of Empire. It should be quite obvious based exclusively on how the USG has behaved in relation to them. Panicked stupid authoritarianism; the result of weakening hegemonic dominance. In my opinion.
On the bright side, if you are right Fernando, and all of these things are really conspiracies, it seems we don't need to do much to fight the struggle; just let them keep on doing the good work of self-implosion. I don't think so though, and I think that credit should be given where credit is deserved. I do respect Wikileaks.
I prefer to look at world events in terms of power dynamics and a lot of what seem to be conspiracies are rather alignments of interests and misalignment of interests within powerful players and not necessarily plots executed to precision from the meeting rooms of secret societies.
Powerful people and organizations surely must try to conspire, but there are too many power struggles and too many variables to look at it from a simplistic puppet/puppeteer perspective.
Also, believing everything is the result of conspiracies gives too much credit to the conspirators. The fact that people conspire does not translate to the fact that they are successful in their conspiracies.
Particularly, reaching conclusions based on logos or secret symbols is a bit much, in my opinion, especially in the 21st century. As someone else has already mentioned, why go through the trouble of making Freedom Box to trick people? And if so, why use logos that would reveal the true wicked intentions? It is a bit like thinking that spies should look like spies. The whole point of it would seem to fall apart if that were the case. Don't you think? It seems a bit out there to think a group of people are smart and capable enough to control the world, and then careless enough to leave us bread crumbs to follow their trail.
Concerning WikiLeaks,
Assange was not supposed to be persecuted by the USG, due to the fear that he might reveal what he knows. It's just something that, accidentally, happened. And, yes. I agree that this fact has left the USG with a bad (public) image. (But, don't do a lot of things that it does? And, does anything change because of that?...)
Concerning the rest...
What I say, about a huge conspiracy that exists, is not "speculation" or "opinion", on my part... Nor is it something that, unlike in what you say to be your case, comes from the way "I prefer to look at world events"...
I know, for a fact, what is said in some of these "meeting rooms of secret societies", from investigators who were able to uncover it, and that have proven themselves, time and again, to be credible persons (http://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10579). And, the sources for such investigators are (besides even some of the people who are part of some of these secret societies, but that are horrified with what they now know to be such societies' ultimate goals) some of the people who serve such conspirators, during their meetings, and some of the people (secret service agents) who are responsible for the security of such meetings, and who are also horrified with what they listen to, during such conversations. And, if you want to know what they're saying and what they're planning, you can start by reading this international best-seller - http://www.amazon.com/True-Story-Bilderberg-Group/dp/0979988624/ - that denounces one of the most important clubs that organizes some of these (in this particular case, now only "secretive") meetings. (And, if you want, you can go from there, informing yourself, and checking - or trying to figure - out the veracity of what you find, instead of making guesses about what you think that may, or may not, be true...)
Concerning "power struggles",
The elites have evolved to the point of figuring out that the best thing to do, is to just rule together, and concentrate themselves on developing better ways of consolidating their power over the rest of the population. (Even because, the most important families in this conspiracy, are now, in big part, just part of even larger common families, due to all the intermarrying that has occurred. So, there's no need to fight "within the family".) And, now, unlike in previous centuries, the ruling system is one called "synarchism" - which means "joint rule". (http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=43444.0 + http://canadanewslibre.com/2012/10/23/synarchism-joint-rule-by-secret-elite/)
Concerning the fact of if "they are successful in their conspiracies",
They, indeed, are. And, that's why they brag about it, and can even give themselves the luxury of "signing" their work, and, occasionally, admit to some of this. Since they, most of the times, are able to recruit the best minds that exist for their projects. And, being the general population so dumb (and being made dumb, on purpose, by these same people: http://www.danielestulin.com/2011/04/21/leccion-de-geografia-para-estadounidenses/#comment-8810 + http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/), it's pretty easy for such intelligent people to fool the rest. And, because they've been doing this for such a long time, many of them become arrogant, and consider themselves to be invincible.
(And, although they do, occasionally, brag about it, the collection of "bread crumbs", that I left here, is not something anyone just stumbles upon, every time they go online... But, the result of 10 years of research about this type of subjects, that I've made, during which I was able to glean such "bread crumbs", that were "scattered around" - and that most people simply don't notice/don't understand, and/or don't bother to keep, because they're too ignorant, and too dumb, to "connect the dots"...)
But, it looks that they may have overestimated their "superiority". And, now, a good part of the general population is figuring out what is being done to it, and waking up to all of this (http://www.prisonplanet.com/alex-jones-bilderberg-is-running-scared.html + http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-inside-sources-told-me-fed-is-panicking-at-mass-awakening/). Not only that, but they are also waking up others (http://www.infowars.com/ + http://www.corbettreport.com/). And, the awareness of all of this has, therefore, been spreading quite a bit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o59D4JUvcdU + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFzpin-36oc).
Concerning the fact of if we do, or not, "need to do much to fight the struggle",
We, most definitely, do. Because, unlike what you say, I know, for a fact (as everyone else who pays attention to what has been happening, of important, also knows), that these people have been successfully consolidating their power. And, that they're not, even with all the leaks that have occurred, in a process of "self-implosion"... The authority of the several Western states (controlled, behind the scenes, by these same people) over their population has only increased. As it has the loss of civil rights, and economic power, of that same population. So, if we just let things evolve the way they have been evolving so far, we will all end up being enslaved. And, don't count on democratic means to always possibly change things for better, because, those too will soon come to an end. (https://trisquel.info/en/forum/nsa-decryption-capabilities#comment-42221 + https://trisquel.info/en/forum/chrome-os#comment-33746)
If you think that the destruction of our Western society is a sign of some sort of "self-implosion" of the plans of these economic elites, you're wrong... It's the result of a /planned destruction/, (that, indeed, may go the wrong way, but, that is being) made happen on purpose (http://www.prisonplanet.com/bilderberg-fears-losing-control-in-chaos-plagued-world.html), to, among other things, preserve what's left of precious, and increasingly scarce, natural resources for these same elites, and destroy the middle-class part of the population - that has a good purchasing power and access to culture, and that can, therefore, know about these kind of things, and also have the economic means of offering resistance to them (http://www.danielestulin.com/2010/12/03/los-verdes/#comment-5786).
Concerning some other things that you talked about, you'll find the answers to them in my previous comments.
I am a member!
>Concerning WikiLeaks,
>
>Assange was not supposed to be persecuted by the USG, due to the fear >that he might reveal what he knows. It's just something that, >accidentally, happened. And, yes. I agree that this fact has left the >USG with a bad (public) image. (But, don't do a lot of things that it >does? And, does anything change because of that?...)
Maybe this is my biggest problem about concentrating so much energy on conspiracies. It is not the case that I don't think conspiracies exist. As I said, people do conspire, and powerful people conspire as well (whether or not they are always successful). I just don't see Wikileaks as a conspiracy of the powerful, and you provide no evidence to the contrary. What changed after Wikileaks? Wikileaks has caused a crisis of authority, breaking the hegemony of Empire and allowing us to see the authoritarian force underneath. Does anything change because of that? Read current world events and decide. I think things do change and are changing. Again though, I don't see things as black and white as you do.
I am familiar with the Bilderberg Group. An annual meeting of powerful people to discuss world events and yes, conspire. I looked at the link to the book and it would be interesting to read. I don't purchase through Amazon though so I will look elsewhere. This is a bit what I was trying to point out. It is so easy to focus on these secret societies, and then buy the books about them through one of the largest Internet monopolies; one that is doing more to impose digital handcuffs on us than most others. It seems to me that a more direct action is sometimes more useful, such as refusing to do business with these kinds of companies that promote non-free media. After all, I believe this is also what the free software movement is about, and hopefully why you are posting on the Trisquel forum. This is part of the modern hegemony of civil society, as I see it. Maybe Gramsci's Prison Notebooks would be an interesting read.
My comment about "not having to do anything" was a bit of a cheeky joke. However, it does seem to me (not because of inaction on the part of those who oppose Empire) that our current system is indeed imploding and that this is contrary to the interests of the system that dominates our lives. I don't think that they (powerful people, corporations and governments) know how to fix it. I see the "system" more as a kind of Frankenstein than as a carefully orchestrated symphony conducted by the likes of the Bilderbergs. Have you read Negri and Hardt's Empire series, I think you might enjoy?
My problem with the whole secret symbols stuff is not that they don't exist, but rather that some people tend to take it too far, as in the case of the butterfly logo of the Freedom Box project. I see it in critiques of other logos, where if there is some sort of triangle somewhere, someone immediately points out that it is the eye of Horus or whatever and that the Masons are going to take over the world. While Alex Jones is not completely uninteresting, he is a bit of a right-wing nut case, in my opinion.
In any case, I do wonder whether all of this attention on conspiracies does not really serve as more of a distraction from the things that are really important, one of these currently being the attempt to free ourselves from the Hegemony that does indeed manufacture consent in our civil societies. How to free ourselves from the violence of the "political society" is something that comes after. First we have to become free from the ideology that exercises the more subtle type of domination. I have to agree with B. Marley here, "we need to free our minds." At this point in time, it seems that free software, free hardware and free media are focal points in this struggle for freedom of thought.
Anyway, we can always agree do disagree, if that is the case. I'm sure your intentions are good, as are mine.
Concerning the persecution of Assange,
When I say that nothing has changed, because of how this persecution revealed the true face of the USG, I'm not saying that this is something that the USG is not worried about (the way it affected its public image). I'm just really tired of people who complaint about the way things are, but that don't do anything to change them. And, I know that the people inside the USG also know that most people won't do anything, in practical terms, because of this. And, if it changes a bit the public perception that people, in general, have of the USG, that soon will become irrelevant, once Martial Law is declared (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wu8fjNr61Q), after some declared emergency, in the Near Future - because, then, the USG won't have to worry about elections or anything of the sort, where people will have a say... (If that will just make people more angry, and make the government fall, I don't know. But, with the absence of a big political movement that can come forward with a real alternative, and with what should be the impossibility of that being even possible, once Martial Law is declared - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/nsa-decryption-capabilities#comment-42221 - I'm not very optimistic, in the case of the US.)
Concerning what I say about WikiLeaks,
The fact that it is a CIA operation, is not something that can be easily spotted by the less politically informed. (And that's why it works...) And the best way to spot a controlled media outlet is not even from what it reveals (or lies about), but from what it /doesn't reveal/ (or about which it remains silent)... I could talk about the lies that WikiLeaks has said, and about very important things that it doesn't even talk about, and that have been leaked by other (real "truth seeking" and "truth leaking") organizations. But, that would be a discussion to be made elsewhere. But, concerning the fact of if it is indeed a CIA operation or not, my source for that is the author that I mentioned, that has wrote a book about it, and that has sources also in US intelligence agencies. If he's a credible person or not, that's something that everyone will have to judge for him/herself. And, I've left here the links for you all to be able to do that.
Concerning the Bilderberg book,
I only linked to Amazon, because of the reviews that are shown on that page. I found this link to be a better option for "beginners", so that people can know more, already, about the book, without having to search the Internet for reviews. I even prefer to give people, in the US, the direct link to the editor's web page, which should be much more financially supported than Amazon, because of the courage that he has to publish this and other "sensitive" books, that I know that the high levels of the USG really don't like him to: http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/product_pages/Bilderbergers.html (It forces you to use PayPal, which has even blocked the account of a friend of this particular author, so that he couldn't be monetarily helped, but it's the best option that I know of...)
I haven't read Negri or Hardt... Right now, I'm more worried about preventing an European - and consequently, a Worldwide - fascist dictatorship from being implemented, and I don't think that Negri and Hardt can help me with that. To the contrary, from the little I know of Negri, he's someone who fought for the interests of that same Empire, that he criticizes, by supporting groups that were part of its so-called "strategy of tension" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension#Italy + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Tarpley#Career).
Alex Jones is not a "nut"... I've been listening to him for 10 years, now, and know him very well. He's just someone who's very energetic in the way he exposes this kind of things. And, whose worriedness and revolt is /more than justified/, due to all that is already happening, and due to the occasional death threats, and other things, that he's the target of. I'm a socialist, myself, and that doesn't stop me from appreciating the great work that he has done, even if people want to call him a "right-winger" - although, a more correct description of him, in my opinion, would be a "libertarian"/"minarchist", or "paleoconservative".
We really do need to "free our minds". And, I've began doing that, myself, a long time ago. Namely, by starting to use Free Software - like it's the case of this distribution. But, if it's Free that we want to remain - or to be even more - we must be wary of - and pay very close attention to - those who want to take that Freedom away (i.e. know what they're up to), and prevent them from doing so.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
--- Leonard H. Courtney
Concerning the symbols,
This is something that (also) people who have sources in intelligence agencies call other people's attention to (http://www.danielestulin.com/2011/11/16/tavistock-el-poder-de-una-imagen-i-parte/ + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kk22CeJ2WY). But, I suppose that, for many, it's a matter of interpretation, then... And, that opinions diverge, as to whether they are present in some places or not, or if it's all just coincidental (http://www.danielestulin.com/2010/09/20/the-coup-y-las-torres-gemelas/#comment-4737).
But, again, concerning WikiLeaks...
I can, nonetheless, leave here a collection of links to information that I've gathered about it, some of it, even before Estulin denounced this, and that, already at the time, made such an organization look (very) very suspicious, not only to me, but also to a lot of well-informed people...
(The guy in the first link is one of WikiLeaks' co-founders, and also the webmaster of a site, that should be familiar to you all, in here, called cryptome.org. And, the guy that you can hear in a radio interview, for which there is a link to, in the last link, is a former US naval intelligence officer, with sources inside the USG, that has, in the meantime, fled the US, because of threats that he received.)
1. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=181365.0
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjW4s5EtG6s
3. http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-is-behind-wikileaks/22389
4. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/iranian-official-responds-to-wikileaks-the-united-states-is-behind-this-deliberate-leak-a-733060.html
5. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=164863.0
(For the Spanish-speaking ones, this was also a program that was aired on one of the Spanish State's radios: http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/audios/radio/wikileaks/891026/)
(from the first link that I mentioned:)
"[Experienced activist and co-founder of WikiLeaks] John Young: ...They revealed that they were continuing to raise $5,000,000 in the first year, and I had a problem with that scale of money-raising. So I criticized it and said that the only way you can raise that kind of money that fast would be for some corrupt source of money or a government agency, so they booted me off the list."
(from Indiegogo's Mailpile page:)
"$163,192 (Raised of $100,000 Goal) - Funding duration: August 03, 2013 - September 10, 2013"
I am a member!
Thanks for all the links. I've looked through them. It still doesn't seem to me that there is clear evidence that Wikileaks is a CIA front. I am still of the opinion that it is not. I insist that your view is too simplistic.
Take real life events as an example: Take the Spanish Civil War and the Republic. Can you really place the Republican side under one umbrella? No (democrats, anarchists, socialists, communists, foreign idealists, etc.). Was the Republic evil for accepting help from Stalin's Russia? I don't think so. Did the Republicans or those on their side commit atrocities. I don't doubt it. I still wouldn't be on the side of the fascists if it was happening today. Politics is not clear cut; binary as you seem to think. The world is a messy place. Real life events are too. There are no innocents in power struggle (except perhaps the disempowered).
Regarding both Wikileaks' and Mailpile's fund-raising, I don't understand your point. Gmail alone has something like 500 million users. Is it so difficult to think that a project like Mailpile would attract 160k dollars? How is that a sign for suspicion?
Regarding the falling-out between Assange and Young. Who knows. I was no there. Assange seems to be quite a difficult person to work with. Young may have felt displaced (as several other people who distanced themselves from WL seem to have felt). Who knows.
The ambition to raise 5 million dollars also doesn't seem to be related to whether or not WL is a CIA front.
I am a member!
"To the contrary, from the little I know of Negri, he's someone who fought for the interests of that same Empire, that he criticizes, by supporting groups that were part of its so-called "strategy of tension"
I'm sorry to say this but you really seem to think every revolutionary is a reactionary in disguise. Negri was framed by the government in 1979 and accused of being a leader of the Red Brigades. He spent many years in prison and in exile and has been viciously persecuted by the Italian government. It is quite clear he has been persecuted only for being a Marxist intellectual.
Antonio Negri, the servant of Empire? pfft.
Concerning how rapid "Mailpile" was able to collect so much money, I (really) don't know how (much) that may be suspicious, or not. And, decided to post that because I thought it was something worth noticing and comparing with what is said above. (For anyone to make any analyses they want.)
=========
Concerning Negri, as I said, I know very little about him. And, the only thing I knew about his connection to the CIA-sponsored (http://www.globalresearch.ca/operation-gladio-cia-network-of-stay-behind-secret-armies/9556) Red Brigades was that he had been imprisoned for supporting them. I had no idea that he was framed. (And, I can't keep up with every conspiracy that happens on the Planet.) But, I'm not surprised to read so.
And, I most certainly don't think that every revolutionary is working for the establishment. (And, still consider myself to be one.) The thing is, that from the years that I've spent investigating the powers-that-be and their connections to supposedly anti-establishment and revolutionary groups and movements, I've come to learn that many of them are, actually, working for the interests of the establishment - with many of them having even been created by that same establishment, and being made up of people who, in large part, are not even aware of that*. (Even in cases where they are made up of a coincidence of interests, like in the case of the Spanish Civil War, where the people behind Orwell, the Stalinists and the anarchists were, initially, fighting on the same side.) And, I (most definitely) don't think that politics is a simple theme... To the contrary, I've learned that it is a much more intricate, complex and complicated issue than what it may seem to beginners and the most naïve.
---
* (off-topic, and not to be discussed in here, since it's not a proper place to, if you're a Marxist, here's a link that may interest you, in this regard - http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=43336.0 - concerning an ancient group that I mentioned above, for you to interpret that information in any way that you want)
I am a member!
I guess we're really getting off topic from the original Mailpile post. For the record, I'm not a Marxist, but it does seem to me that anyone interested in political theory and history in particular and in other subjects more broadly would benefit from reading the ideas of Marx and others after him. Regarding the link...why not read the original literature and make up your own mind? Anyway, on to other subjects. Thanks for the discussion.
Yes, and yes. I'm also tired of discussing this kind of topics, in here. On to other subjects. :)
Whatever you mean by "cypherpunks"...
If you're talking about the first ones, or the people who created such movement, I don't know enough about them, yet, to know if they were part of some CIA front or not...
But, concerning the modern-day ones, this is (mainly) what I think about such phenomenon: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/how-use-tor-trisquel#comment-26804
Fernando Negro
You are symbolically paranoid. \O/
Sometimes a bit of "sour lemon" and a lot of twisted cold war, Awkward thinking, but indirectly, it is interesting reading.
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