Please people, stop spreading FUD about ivermectin and covid-19 in this forum

39 respostas [Última entrada]
nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

Not only is this completely off-topic outside the Troll Lounge, but it is just not helpful anyway:

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/palemoon-trisquel#comment-162830

> horse dewormer

I think we should focus on what works instead, both for prevention and cure. FYI, I know people who got dermatologist prescriptions for ivermectin. Eating it was never the right way to use it, but I can assure you with reasonable certainty that they are no horses, and they were not aware of having worms inside them. There are still on-going studies about its effectiveness against covid-19, none has been conclusive yet. Bleach has proven and well known side effects, though. No need for further studies.

If you want to be taken seriously while countering disinformation, you should inform yourself correctly first. Else you are only amplifying the noise:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05076253: "The objective of this study is to establish the efficacy of ivermectin for COVID-19 patients with mild to moderate disease, compare to usual case alone."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34318930: "Currently, evidence on efficacy and safety of ivermectin for prevention of SARS-CoV-2 infection and COVID-19 treatment is conflicting."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252: "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Oh good, we get to talk about how Bill Gates is the anti-Christ again??

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

That would be less misleading.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Exactly!!!

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

Everything has already been said about that.

Except of course, that they are ready to conflate possible avenues for treatment and bleach in order to push for the mark of the Aardvark. But that's nothing surprising, coming from the Antichrist and its forever expanding tentacles.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Have you ever noticed how Cthulhu and Bill Gates have never been seen at the same place at the same time?

Coincidence?

I think not.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

True.

And have you noticed how Bill Gates keeps spitting hakes when interviewed after lunch?

No wonder people keep wondering what the hake he is talking about.

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021
andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Looked good to me. You looking at them on your phone? Links in this forum look funny on a phone.

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

No, I just noticed that the colon got added to the links, so I tried to follow them and got an error.

EDIT: there was no column, just a colon.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

It seems that the more knowledge and information will be publicly available, the harder people will try to look away and into their TV screens.

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/notes-eventual-second-post-feautures-forum#comment-162440

> "Did you know drinking ***deblobbed*** motor oil can prevent or cure covid-19?"

I'd like to see the links to the NIH referenced studies about motor oil and covid-19.

#Imgettinglobotomy

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

It is called sarcasm...

Oh well, :(

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

> It is called sarcasm...

Sure. But only if you believe the FUD about ivermectin, which apparently you do. And, I must shamefully admit, which I did until recently, mostly for lack of time to investigate the question further. Did you read any of those papers above?

I agree with you that there is so much nonsense going that it is sometimes difficult to filter. Covid-19 is not going away any time soon, though, so we'd better get our facts right. Surely you could find some people to tell you that the NIH is the mouthpiece for Mephistopheles. I will let you decide about the credibility of that claim.

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021
lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

It says: "Clinical trials assessing ivermectin tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing."

The plot thickens. It seems both the NIH and the FDA are in league to study ivermectin as a possible cure for covid-19.

Admittedly, the NIH still seems to be the bolder of the two: "The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally". Oh my! Where is Dr Fauci when we need him to banish these necromancers from Middle Earth?

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

I have other links at the bottom of the page, but honestly, I am starting to think I might be getting trolled hard...

Or am talking to people who believe people like Alex Jones and people who are like them...

I hope I am wrong about both of those assumptions but it looks grim.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

I think you are being overly pessimistic. If this is just how you are, no offense. I also tend not to be overly optimistic, in general, and pandemics do not help. Somehow, I can understand why some would rather believe there is no virus (or that the Earth is flat), than face reality. Also, the Trisquel forum might not be the most adequate place to discuss controversial topics. This should never have been a controversial topic in the first place, though, when you think about it. So yes, you are wrong about being trolled (even though this could be expected in the Troll Lounge, but "not all the time") and you are most probably not talking to conspiracy nuts either, but should you really take my word about that? I think you are in fact the one who brought conspiracy in, although not in support of it. It was a bit like you came in with a turd under your sole while telling everyone to keep the new carpet clean.

Until recently, I did not pay attention to anyone mentioning cures, because antiviral medicines have historically been painfully difficult to come by, for various reasons. There was a litany of hoaxes, as expected, but there was also a complete failure of public authorities to deal appropriately with the situation, which imho was the main problem, and the source of all the other ones. Why were borders kept open so long? With little control, if any? Why were decision makers so hesitant? Why were there even questions about profits vs. health and life? Why were we totally unprepared to something that had been predicted to happen at least a couple of decades ago? Where did all the precautionary stocks of masks and protective equipment go? We were totally failed.

Vaccines were developed faster than expected, and while no one should take any drug without proper information, the information about risks and efficiency was publicly available. At least the raw data were available, although it usually took some extra steps to get the whole picture. The public discourse about it was miserably daft and irresponsible. Of course, that opened the door wide to conspiracy narratives, which usually have as main effect to discredit anything they touch (think ivermectin).

Cures are beginning to be authorized, so yes, there is also hope on that side. Ivermectin is not currently authorized as a treatment or prophylaxis against covid-19. Who said it was? You jumped (sorry, no pun intended) in, referred to a long-deceased thread about the Mark of the Beast and immediately conflated that with ivermectin, calling it "literal horse dewormer". Ivermectin is clearly a candidate drug for covid-19. Please do not try to dissolve your rosacea paste in your vodka, but do not equate it to bleach either. Or motor oil. That's all. Don't despair. andyprough is right: "Sufficient for the day is its own trouble". I wonder where he stole that one from...

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Well, there were warnings about an incoming pandemic prior to 2019, but hmm, it seems someone tried to pass it off as a non threat, I wonder if it could be mister agent orange himself... hmm... yes it was... :P

I should also add, the vaccine is 95% effective at least, ivermectin has no proof whatsoever, unless you trust propaganda from right wing sources.

I should also add, I heard about mark of the beast at one point, but had no idea what was in it.

I don't think it is a candidate for anything, judging by the links I have below, but either way, I do not think it matters to either the OP, or you, etc...

Thus there is nothing much else to say except to say, you are being brainwashed I believe.

The last part of sufficient for the day is its own trouble is a biblical reference, yes I am aware.

Keep in mind the right wing had a golden statue at a republican event and its of trump. That is why the right wing cannot be trusted, ever... Also, that is a huge sin to worship anyone but God, but that's what cults do. They are a cult, nothing more, nothing less.

I hope Andy doesn't buy into that crap, I would prefer him not die because he doesn't heed wisdom of actual scientists and listen to rogues like some here have.

I wish I could help you and the OP, but it seems you have made up your minds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_calf

Scroll down to where it says popular culture

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Bigger Edit: I see you did in fact detect my sarcasm and that makes me sad, I hoped people on this forum would get the folly of trusting antivax nonsense...

My bad regarding thinking you were taking me out of context, but please read my response below...

Don't kill yourself to own the libs, ivermectin is not a cure for covid-19.

Do you want to join the more than 500K people who have literally become part of the acronym MAGA interpeted this way:

Make Americas Graves Abundant!

My point being, that's what trump's maga slogan should have meant...

Either way, just save yourself from this madness of being willing to die for him.

I am not sure how much of this is accurate for you personally, but most people who think that ivermectin is a cure for covid-19, believe these insane conspiracy nut job theories about the vaccine being unsafe, it is safe, in fact its safer than every other cure.

Please be safe, don't be reckless...

Hope you understand before its too late.

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

Please stop editing your own posts. It does not help keeping track of the discussion and it feels like you are deliberately moving the goalposts, then trying to hide it.

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Wasn't trying to hide it, I just didn't wish to keep the anger in full view, I don't see a purpose in that.

Besides, it has no meaning at this point.

I thought you thought I was seriously saying that those cures worked...

Yeah...

I don't have a clue what you are doing either.

I probably might give up, if you plan to keep spewing this FUD regarding saying, that what I am saying is "FUD"

Just trust the majority of reasonable doctors out there, pretty sure europe is more sensible than the west...

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

I do not think anyone thought you were seriously advising drinking bleach. Some might have thought that you were conflating bleach and ivermectin. That's indeed what I thought, although I was not aware of the motor oil metaphor. I have no problem with sarcasm or irony.

So I may ask: do you have any idea what ivermectin is? If not, could you please check that first? The links I provided could help you, but of course you might want to get your own sources on the matter.

Or would you rather trust unverified sources on such a serious topic? If not, I really think you should read the NIH documents about these studies, even though they do not mention any horse, nor any worm. If you think the NIH is spreading misinformation about "stupid covid cures", well, I guess this conversation will have to end here.

I do not deem it wise to call for misusing prescription drugs, no more than I deem it wise to spread FUD about existing prescription drugs under clinical trials for new indications, especially when these could provide affordable treatments in times of pandemic.

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Okay, but why not just use the vaccine to prevent it from happening in the first place?

Ivermectin is for getting rid of parasitic infestations...

Dr Fauci has said it will not help against covid-19, the CDC has said that as well...

I really don't get why you want to use that instead of a vaccine.

I very much hope you don't believe antivaxxer nonsense...

The vaccine is the best way to prevent it, if you get covid and haven't taken the vaccine, I have a bad feeling you will die...

I apologize for getting pissed yesterday, I thought you really took me as if I meant that I was serious and that made me annoyed.

I very much hope you don't have to learn what over 500K in USA, had to learn the hard way about not taking the vaccine...

Let's put it this way, they aren't alive to tell the tale...

:(

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

For a moment I thought you were deliberately trolling. You seem to be editing your own posts extensively.

I now realize that you might simply be so deeply caught in the heated, divisive and nefarious climate of internal US politics that the rest of the world barely exists. Do you realize that a large majority of people in the world simply do not have access to any vaccine? How do you intend to help them? By spreading FUD about promising avenues for affordable cures and telling them to..."just use the vaccine" instead? Closer to you maybe, some people have contraindications for vaccines, for various reasons, should we simply let them suffer or die, or should we strive to find effective ways to protect them too and cure them, should they get infected?

How exactly do you intend to help the unlucky minority of vaccinated people (the current stats say about 1% to 5%) who will still develop a severe form of the disease, and possibly die of it? By wishing them better luck next time, or by treating them? It is as criminal to present vaccines as magical shields as it is to deny their overall efficiency and safety, you are doing as much harm as the people you loathe so loudly, except that you seem not to be aware of it.

I may as well let you talk to yourself through your own daemons, I would not want to disturb further. I do understand this is a boiling topic for you, I don't doubt your good faith. Take care. Wear a mask, keep distances and keep your hands clean. Getting vaccinated is not necessarily a bad idea, if you have access to that, but please don't forget the barrier gestures. And the booster jabs when needed. And just stop the FUD about ivermectin in the Trisquel Forum. In fact, do as you wish, but please do understand that this has the potential to harm people. Make sure you've got all relevant information before going sarcastic.

I totally agree with you about this: "people have lost their damn minds, when they just jump to judgment..."

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Oh, I thought you lived in usa and was a trump supporter or something akin to that...

I don't think you will gain anything by using ivermectin, but just a small warning in case you have some reasonability...

If you plan to take ivermectin, I really recommend you not take the horse variant of it, otherwise, you will overdose and likely die.

It is somewhat of a boiling point for me though, because there are actual conspiracy theory nutcases trying to say the vaccine is unsafe and will cause death, infertility, etc...

As for me spreading FUD, I really doubt it. I honestly don't know what country you are from, but ivermectin has a specific purpose and covid-19 is NOT part of it, well... unless you want to go to the grave sooner.

On an unrelated note, I think USA has long since been just downright evil about patents, copyrights, etc...

I think that electronic patents should be disabled due to the abuses they cause, but that's not what we are talking about here.

However, I do believe the ivermectin cure in USA, should be forced into public domain and let the corporate assholes cry all they want, they are full of crap and need to be put in their place and thrown back to earth rather than being on their own mountain like they deserve to have absolute power or w/e. I say this figuratively,

By the way, this seems to be a boiling point for you as well, given that you claim I am spreading FUD...

I came to this conclusion mostly because a conspiracy theorist came up with the idea of using ivermectin instead of the vaccine.

I just don't want anyone to die to covid-19 because they refused the vaccine and/or using ivermectin instead of the vaccine.

I actually hope if you think what you say is true, that you are trolling me, this is just madness... smh...

:(

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

> I came to this conclusion mostly because a conspiracy theorist came up with the idea of using ivermectin instead of the vaccine.

That's what some would call jumping to conclusions. Do not let con(spiracy) artists alter your judgement in a way or another. It seems that one has already succeeded.

As a farewell gift to this discussion:

"Conclusions: Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34375047

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Perhaps it is best, I don't think either of us will ever convince the other of anything....

Also, despite what anyone might say, this is a no win situation.

I just hope people stop dying doing insane stuff regarding cures with little or no evidence...

Either way, I very much hope if you do use it, you don't use the horse version.

Hope you don't die because of this though.

jahoti
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Joined: 07/31/2021

Would you accept treatment in certain circumstances with Ivermectin if the FDA and CDC approved it? I'm not being contrarian here; it just seems to me that lanun (and possibly nori) are only arguing there is promising evidence, and that we should be prepared to defer to those who are qualified to assess the evidence for the purposes of passing judgment.

I do agree self-medicating based on an untrained and biased reading of the available literature is a horrific idea- especially in place of adopting public health measures the evidence actually does support!

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Yes, if FDA and CDC approved it, sure why not, absolutely if its as safe as the vaccine. but they have said just the opposite, so sadly it doesn't matter at this juncture...

By the way, about the latest message Nori put out, I just find it ironic that Nori thinks I am the crackpot...

...

Unless you meant someone else, in which case you can clarify, but I honestly don't know why you keep replying, its just pointless. Perhaps we both should let this topic die.

I will start if possible, though I have to admit, it is tempting to troll when people believe insane cures without any evidence or worse, when the opposite is proven.

meh...

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

The reason why I have taken this topic seriously, and created this thread, is not to troll you. The only reason is that you seemed to take it quite seriously, and in my opinion for good reasons. If you did not, why bother?

I was never trying to convince you of anything, I was trying to point to what I think are reliable information sources so people can make their own mind about the crucial difference between bleach (or whatever snake oil) and ivermectin. I think it should be clear enough by now. It should also be clear that clinical trials are still on-going, which means that nobody should take any of this now outside of its current indications, especially not knowing the safe and efficient dosage. People should also stop calling it "horse dewormer" to discredit it even before the studies have completed.

If one day ivermectin, or any other drug, gets approval for use as a cure against covid-19 in your country (which I hope will keep happening), and you get infected (which of course I hope will not happen), please do not refuse it just because some crackpot said it should replace the vaccine. If you take a look at my original post, you will see there is no mention of vaccines. You brought it in because of Mr Crackpot. You are letting Mr Crackpot into your mind. I think you should not, but it is your mind and I think we should focus on our own mind, which is already not so easy.

This pandemic is a hell of a stress test for all of us. We might get out of it stronger if we manage to learn enough from it. As the Community Guidelines of this forum say, and as a parting wish: "Use common sense at all times".

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

There has been a letter to the editors concerning this paper, following apparent retractation of one of the studies included in the meta-analysis:
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/10000/Ivermectin,_A_Reanalysis_of_the_Data.9.aspx

Another paper seems to have been similarly affected by the retracted paper:
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/10000/Ivermectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.7.aspx

I am getting a 404 error when trying to access the Guardian article mentioned in the second letter to the editors. Maybe someone is not proud after their underbelly job has been called for what it was. It is available there, though: https://web.archive.org/web/20211216122204/https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-Ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns.

I would rather trust evidence-based science than speculative, imprecise and propagandist sub-journalism. I did not notice the Guardian had fallen straight to gutter level. This is no honest mistake, this is blatant and deliberate smear and FUD.

jahoti
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Joined: 07/31/2021

What do you mean by "barrier gestures"?

nori
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Joined: 11/14/2021

By "barrier gestures", I mean this:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/barrier-gesture

Maybe non-BE speakers use other turns of phrase. How would you call them?

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021
andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

>"Yeah, I really hope you are trolling me..."

We are all trolling 24/7 in the Troll Lounge, including you, that's the beauty of this little corner of the internet.

Peace out, my brother. And remember:
Matthew 6:31-34 - “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

> ‘What shall we eat?’

Amphibious trolls!

> ‘What shall we drink?’

Amphibious trolls!!

> ‘What shall we wear?’

...!!!

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

I like the ancient Greek version better:
Μὴ οὖν μεριμνήσητε εἰς τὴν αὔριον, ἡ γὰρ αὔριον μεριμνήσει ἑαυτῆς.
"Not therefore ["don't"] be anxious about things tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious about itself."

I think that's the perfect translation. Don't really need all our modern translations of the New Testament - the ancient Greek text is still clear.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

> the ancient Greek text is still clear.

Agreed. We still clearly get to eat amphibian trolls today, and some tomorrow, no worry. Although there is an on-going debate among experts about 'amphibious' vs. 'amphibian'. I suggest we eat the experts too, in order to settle the question before getting too anxious about it.

I have heard ancient Greek is going to make a long overdue comeback into highschool curricula in France, to which I applaud with all tentacles.

lanun
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Joined: 04/01/2021

> Don't really need all our modern translations of the New Testament

True. Only trust the original Aramaic podcasts.

SkedarKing
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Joined: 11/01/2021

Fair point, lol I was just being serious for a brief moment regarding using unproven treatments to cure covid-19.

Sometimes I troll, but when I do...

I try to amuse myself and others!

Please keep it up my friends!

Also I have one more joke for you, see if you catch the reference:

I don't always commit treason, but when I do... I do it to get my own way!

Stay MAGA my friends! ;)

See if you get the joke now, who am I talking about?

:P