EU: All your internet are belong to us
- Login o registrati per inviare commenti
pragmatist said:
"Before I bother, tell me how long a list do you want of Holocaust survivors that do NOT think that Israel acts like Nazis??"
This is what I really said:
danieru98 said:
"It has gotten so bad that even jews are being labeled as antisemitic if they critic Israel in any way."
I put Dr Hajo Meyer as an example. Period.
> "The fact that you can find a Jew that hates Israel or a Jew that hates Jews means nothing at all"
Prove that Dr Hajo Meyer hated jews. If you can't then that nonsense has no relation to who I quote.
Also, Bobby Fischer has no relation to what I quote. So stop forcing a relation between the two that doesn't exist.
That's just rude and dishonest.
I am a member!
"On 2010 Meyer said:
"Israel acts like Nazis"'
Hajo Meyer wrote a book called "The End of Judaism"
Hajo Meyer belonged to IJAN
His actions demonstrate his beliefs--the man does not like Jews and does not like Israel. Period.
"Bobby Fischer has no relation to what I quote."
You said, "I think it was a jew who said some Israel actions where comparable to the nazis."
You think the fact that he is Jewish somehow strengthens your argument. I was pointing out that this is not true at all. There are self-hating Jews, for example Bobby Fischer.
"Hajo Meyer wrote a book called "The End of Judaism"
Hajo Meyer belonged to IJAN"
Not the book nor IJAN say "we hate jews like ourselves". They both say "we are jews who oppose and condemn Israel crimes".
To know what the book is about you obviously need to read it. You are just an idiot saying "Hajo Meyer wrote a book called "The End of Judaism" that title is so self-hating!"
And neither IJAN is about hating jews, I quote from his website:
"IJAN is an international network of Jews who are uncompromisingly committed to struggles for human survival and emancipation, of which the liberation of the Palestinian people and land is an indispensable part."
"The State of Israel betrays the long histories of Jewish struggles for liberation and traditions of participation in collective struggles for liberation more broadly."
http://www.ijan.org/who-we-are/
"His actions demonstrate his beliefs--the man does not like Jews and does not like Israel. Period."
"here are self-hating Jews"
What you're saying is no different from saying "This German is a self-hating German because he oppose and condemn Nazi crimes".
Is a fallacy to think that a jew hates himself and every other jew because he oppose and condemn Israel crimes.
You don't have to hate yourself to recognize that some people of your kind are doing wrong.
I bet a lot of people here oppose and condemn Nazi and KKK crimes, but you don't call them "self-hating whites". Why is that? Oh I know.
It's more of your hypocrisy.
I am a member!
You are saying that killing 6 million Jews in gas chambers is the same as something Israel is doing? You are deranged and so are the people you are quoting. At the heart of this is your opinion regarding Israel's "crimes". There is an opposing view to that. You are taking as truth that a comparison of Israel to the Nazis is reasonable when nothing could be further from the truth.
As I said earlier, for every jackass you call in to support your deranged position I can bring in 1,000 WIDELY respected opponents who say otherwise.
So take your anti-zionist agenda somewhere appropriate--this is not an appropriate place. These are the Trisquel forums and they are committed to free software--this whole thread is this an invitation to chaos that you are trying to hard to keep alive. Then, within the chaos, you come out with your true agenda--anti-zionism. Why not just make a separate thread about anti-zionism--see how well it goes over.
Stop trying to point out hypocrisy--this whole thread is a hypocrisy--you are a hypocrisy. I have TWICE worked at getting this thread closed. TWICE the ONLY person to try and stop that was YOU. So you are fighting to keep the chaos going. It is the only place you have to peddle your anti-zionist crap. Take it somewhere else cretin.
"You are saying that killing 6 million Jews in gas chambers is the same as something Israel is doing?"
You're just playing dumb with me now.
"As I said earlier, for every jackass you call in to support your deranged position I can bring in 1,000 WIDELY respected opponents who say otherwise."
It doesn't matter if you can bring one million idiots saying the same.
Truth is not democratic
I am a member!
If the number does not matter, if you do not need others to make your point, stop quoting other people!!
The only reason I search for his name and who was he, was because you accuse me of "perverting the truth".
It has gotten so bad that even Jews are being labeled as antisemitic if they critic Israel in any way.
Funny. That was my main part of my comment and you just avoid any response to what my comment was really about.
You know that it's truth.
Further more you do exactly the same thing. You label others who have opinions which you don't like to try to silence them.
Next time you try to silence me or someone else you should try with facts, not names.
I am a member!
For those just tuning in, here is danieru's logic so far:
danieru: "some guy said blah blah blah is true"
pragmatist: "some guys say blah blah blah is not true"
danieru: "The truth stands on its own--no sources needed to prove the truth."
pragmatist: "if no sources are needed, why did you say, "some guy said blah blah blah is true".
danieru: "You said I pervert the truth, and to prove the truth I need sources."
You could have responded to an accusation that you pervert the truth by actually speaking the truth yourself and not relying on a quote from some guy you dug up.
Make up your mind. Do you want a discussion where both sides bring support for their views? Or, do you want to demonstrate the Truth without sources--making you THE source for the truth?
You like to think of yourself as some kind of expert on hypocrisy. Now I know what you think that--you have a lot of practice with it. But you need to know that calling people hypocrites when you are a hypocrite is less than compelling.
"Do you want a discussion"
says the one who don't what any discussion at all
Could someone tell me if "someone who's hated by" translate to spanish as "alguien que es odiado por"?
Or should it be "someone who is hated by"?
I am a member!
"BTW. didn't you said you wouldn't comment on this thread?"
That was before it was moved to the Troll Lounge. Besides, I knew how much you would miss me, so I came back just for you ;)
I love you too
I am a member!
Call for a vote to end this thread:
This is very simple. I want to see 'the faces' of those who want this thread to go on.
All you do is respond to this thread with +1 if you want to end the thread and -1 if you want it to stay. Don't respond to the responses please. Just respond to this post.
I will start with my vote which is for the thread to end, by responding to this post:
member doesn't mean mod. If you can't deal my freedom of speech, then go to your safe-place.
> "I want to see 'the faces' of those who want this thread to go on."
I see, so you're doing this just to put people into your own personal watch-list.
I am a member!
"I see, so you're doing this just to put people into your own personal watch-list."
What are you talking about? What is a 'personal watch list'?
I want to give people a chance to show that they want this thread to end. If you just use the +/- buttons, the results are subject to abuse. By people individually posting their vote, it is unambiguous. Don't hide if you want to keep the thread. Please vote "-1" if you want to keep this thread going. Please vote "+1" if you want this thread to end. It is very simple danieru, I don't see why you are so confused about this. It is called "voting" and it is used throughout the free world.
danieru98 said:
"I don't remember who once said that antisemitic nowadays doesn't mean someone who hates jews, but rather someone who's hated by some jews."
pragmatist said:
"what you are doing is giving the opposite definition to something. It is nothing more than a perversion of the truth (oh yeah, I forgot, he also said: true is false and right is wrong and bad is good..."
Found him.
"An anti-Semite used to be a person who disliked Jews. Now it is a person who Jews dislike"
Hajo Meyer (12 August 1924 – 23 August 2014) was a Jewish German-Dutch physicist and an anti-Zionist political activist.
On 2010 Meyer said:
"Israel acts like Nazis"
http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/the-nazi-genocide/auschwitz-survivor-israel-acts-like-nazis
And because of that he was labeled an anti-Semite.
Wanna know something else about Dr Meyer? Something that I didn't remember and that it shocked me now as I read.
He was an Auschwitz survivor. He was arrested and spent ten months in Auschwitz! So if someone knows how Nazis used to act. Who better than someone who had to deal with the Nazi regime? I wouldn't take with a grain of salt "Israel acts like Nazis" now that I know from who's coming.
I am a member!
Just for fun, I spent a few minutes tallying up the frequency of posters in this thread for the first 212 posts. It is not to prove anything. Because if it were to prove anything, it would be that I have a big mouth :p
danieru: 52
Pragmatist: 43
root_vegetable: 23
hack and hack: 17
loldier: 16
catfishes: 12
CentaurX00: 11
CalmStorm: 8
onpon4: 7
JadedCtrl: 5
Mangy Dog: 4
healinghawk: 3
david: 2
doolio: 2
Magic Banana: 2
Garsmith: 1
Jodiendo: 1
Miguel: 1
SuperTramp83: 1
I am a member!
Call for a vote to end this thread:
respond to this post with +1 so we can end this thread
I will start by responding with my vote
I am a member!
Now you're being really daft. No one responded to your call to vote last time so why will they now. You accused me of having an agenda so I'm calling you out right now. You have an agenda to stop anyone criticizing Israel.
Criticizing Israel is not the same as being anti-Semitic. Just like criticizing the Vatican would not be anti-Christian.
It seems you think any Jew who criticizes Israel is a self-hating Jew. That is simply not the case. Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing.
I for one don't think this thread should be closed if only in the interests of free speech :)
Now back to trying to compile IceCat ;)
I am a member!
'You have an agenda to stop anyone criticizing Israel."
I have an agenda to stop this thread. If those two are the same thing, then this thread has truly gone astray and does not belong here. As it is, it was moved from the main forum to the Troll Lounge. It just needs one more push to get it out the door.
If you want to make a thread in the Troll Lounge about criticizing Israel, and you label it as such, I won't interfere. Be upfront, don't hide underneath this other topic. And don't tell me they are connected, because everything is connected in one way or another and you end up with a reductio ad absurdum.
I am a member!
Mate. No one is hiding and there's no need to make another thread. If you want a discussion why not have it here? Pull up a settee and enjoy the lounge :)
I am a member!
"there's no need to make another thread. If you want a discussion why not have it here?"
Why not have one big thread for the entire troll lounge?
Is that what you are asking?
Because if you don't want one big thread, but instead you want several smaller threads, how do you decide what goes in what thread?
Pragmatist i like facts and in the matter Roger Waters address at The United Nations 29th November 2012 on behalf of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine to the UN (available in video or in text)is a remarkable plea for the Palestinian cause of which i have been a supporter all my life.
http://www.russelltribunalonpalestine.com/en/3140/roger-waters-specch-at-the-un
Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
One cannot defend Freedom of speech and run away the moment people have to express their views & opinions.
I am a member!
If it is going to be a discussion about free speech utilizing the subject of the middle east arab-israeli conflict, then it has to have a discussion of BOTH sides. That does not mean that both sides are chosen by palestinian supporters. You have to be willing to hear the free speech of the opponents to your view.
However, I have been trying to close this thread for a very simple reason: These forums are about Trisquel. Yes there can be a lot of deviation, and therefore there is the Troll Lounge. A lot of deviation does not mean limitless deviation. Just because as a society we believe there should be SOME places where people can talk about a particular subject, that does not mean EVERY place should be a platform for any subject. Further, it does not stipulate that your house should be the place we have these discussions at any time we like whether or not you approve of it--even though it is your private property.
In other words, some venues are more appropriate than others for discussing a particular topic. For example, Richard Stallman, on his personal website stallman.org, dissociates his views from that of fsf.org or gnu.org Why should he do that? He is very interested in promoting his political views--of which he has many. Yet he decided that fsf.org and gnu.org are inappropriate places to discuss hose topics. He has a right to do that. We have a right to do the same. We all agree that trisquel.info is a place devoted to:
foster the development and use of Trisquel. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome."
We have all been guilty in this thread of violating the principles of this website. I have been trying to end this thread. I have been responding to posts in the thread because I don't want those views to go unopposed. At the same time, however, I have also been trying to end this thread. Enough is enough. There are countless places on the internet to discuss these contentious, inflammatory, and most controversial of all topics.
If you persist with this topic, one of two things will happen to trisquel.info:
1.) It will be place associated with an endless debate on an incredibly divisive issue unrelated to Trisquel
2.) It will be a place associate with a particular political side on an incredibly divisive issue unrelated to Trisquel.
This second scenario is the worst of all. It is one thing to take sides on an issue directly related to free software--free speech. It is another to take sides on every issue in the World in the name of free speech and to do it right here on trisquel.info
What you will end up with is a long list of specific political topics and agendas that welcomes those who agree with them and repels those that do not. Do you want Trisquel to be associated with Israeli sympathizers in the arab-israeli conflict? What about people who take the 'palestinian' side? They will feel uncomfortable here. It is wrong for us to make some people more welcome than others based on any consensus on a political position unrelated to Trisquel.
Because I can tell you this: There are people who would leave Trisquel and never come back if they felt it was rife with Israel supporters that could not resist talking about their views about arabs all the time. Vice-versa as well.
I am a member!
You know if no one posts in a thread it gets closed automatically right? That's kind of how the moderation here works. Self moderation, I like it.
So with your near 25% of the posts in this thread you are the one keeping it open.
I am a member!
"So with your near 25% of the posts in this thread you are the one keeping it open."
I am the ONLY one who is trying to close this thread. If the thread stays open, I will make sure somebody speaks for the opposing side.
Tell you what, you start making posts to close this thread, and don't add to this debate, and I will stop too. If you continue the thread, you force me to do the same. It is on YOU now.
I am a member!
Name calling? So sophisticated you are. It is ridiculously easy for me to insult you--so much material I would hardly know where to begin--still I will take the high road and choose not to stoop to your sophmoric level.
Even thought I don't approve catfishes use of the word "weirdo". I can't help but to point out how you say thing when it's convenient.
> "Name calling? So sophisticated you are"
pragmatist said:
> "You are not listening troll. Maybe louder will help??
GO AWAY!!!"
root_vegetable said:
> "You are a fucking reactionary troll."
pragmatist said:
> "@root_vegetable: Perfectly said."
For you, name calling, insults, profanity, and attacks are "perfectly said" when they are address to people you disagree with.
But when someone do so much as call you "weirdo". It's then and only then when you suddenly remember that's wrong.
Hypocrite as usual.
And just by the way. root_vegetable apologize because he is not arrogant like you pragmatist.
I am a member!
Well I hope pragmatist you can accept my apologies for calling you a weirdo.
My point was that these kind of threads come and go. The way it works is really very good.
When people become disinterested and stop posting, the thread gets locked automatically after a certain time.
So the best way to get it closed is just to leave it alone. Not call for votes to close it which could potentially take another three pages.
I think one of the main problems is that this was originally posted in the main forum. The main forum is only for discussion of Trisquel and free software. It's like a help manual for new users.
The Troll Lounge is everything else.
I would like to add my two cents with a little of my own experience with ""free"" health care now that pragmatist decided to bring that to discussion (I quote free because at leaast in my country it's not free at all)
onpon4 said:
> "1. Private insurance doesn't work all that well. It is inefficient and results in many people being uninsured, meaning they have to pay for health care out of pocket. Additionally, of those that are insured, many have absurdly high deductibles, which makes having the insurance not much better than being completely uninsured."
I can't truthfully add much to this because my experience has been mostly with "La caja del seguro social" (CCSS) aka ""free"" health care.
Just want to say that the inefficiency of this institution (CCSS) has lead my father to keep saved money for a private hospital if needed in the future. So he's paying to the CCSS even though he don't use their services AND he is saving money to NOT use the CCSS at all.
onpon4 said:
> "2. The poor simply cannot pay for the costs of health care by themselves."
That's truth. And I would like that everyone could get the treatment they deserve.
onpon4 said:
> "3. Those who cannot afford to pay for health care will not, because they can't. Therefore, someone else will have to pick up the cost; that's everyone else, through even higher health care costs and insurance premiums."
It's especially in this point where I would like that everyone in a country had the consciousness to help each other. No matter if you are poor or rich. To help others because there's always someone less fortunate than me.
onpon4 said:
> "4. Tying health care to employment is completely stupid, because it discourages empoloyers from hiring more people full-time."
This! Thanks to "Caja Costarricense del Seguro Social" (CCSS) "Instituto Nacional de Seguros" (INS)
That's right! You are obligated to get insurance from two institutions from the government if you want to work.
Plus having one of the highest minimum wages of all Latin America!
Just look at this shit: http://salariominimo.com.mx/comparativa-salario-minimo-latinoamerica/
Panamá: $ 744
Costa Rica: $ 512
Now add one more thing: Massive immigration. The government just don't care about our borders AT ALL. People go in and out all day like if Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama was a single country.
What has that derived to? We are less competitive day after day. We had Intel and not USA because we where more competitive. But we lost them. And with that 20% of our exports. We lost them to China. But I can't blame China. They are just doing what they have to give jobs to their people. While my country has a retarder policy that might as well say "don't work".
And when we are not losing jobs to other countries, we lose jobs to illegals who work without insurance. Further more this same illigals can then go to "La Caja del Seguro Social" and receive medical treatment without paying while all the other hard-working honest people who pay to "La Caja del Seguro Social" pay for the illegals medicine and treatment. It's so unjust. Further more! If you say something they just label you as xenophobic and racist. Fuck this government. All they want from foreigners are votes. Votes and nothing else. To keep power even if they have to half-destroy the country.
onpon4 said:
> "5. Diseases can spread. Therefore, it is beneficial to everyone for fewer people to have diseases. When you have to pay to get treated for anything, you are less likely to do so, meaning you are more likely to put others at risk in this way."
I can't agree more with you. Just agree. You don't do much if you can afford a vaccine for a wide spreed virus if most of the population can't. In those cases the government could buy and distribute free vaccines for people to avoid further infection and death.
onpon4 said:
> "and because private insurance and uninsurance are a terrible burden on the economy."
I don't have reasons to think that's necessarily true in all cases, feel free to post more info if you feel like convincing me.
But something that I've learned the hard way is that ""free"" public health care can be a burden to the economy if it's applied the most retarded way you can imagine, like in my country.
For everyone: Feel free to respond to this post if you want to learn more about the status of my country, and why I feel the way I feel.
You said:
What has that derived to? We are less competitive day after day. We had Intel and not USA because we where more competitive. But we lost them. And with that 20% of our exports. We lost them to China. But I can't blame China. They are just doing what they have to give jobs to their people. While my country has a retarder policy that might as well say "don't work".
And when we are not losing jobs to other countries, we lose jobs to illegals who work without insurance. Further more this same illigals can then go to "La Caja del Seguro Social" and receive medical treatment without paying while all the other hard-working honest people who pay to "La Caja del Seguro Social" pay for the illegals medicine and treatment. It's so unjust. Further more! If you say something they just label you as xenophobic and racist. Fuck this government. All they want from foreigners are votes. Votes and nothing else. To keep power even if they have to half-destroy the country.
Translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNho8g0lsU
There's no translation. My comment is as it is.
I don't know French so sorry but I can't translate to your native language if you don't understand English.
Though I can translate "La Caja del Seguro Social" and "Instituto Nacional de Seguros" for you.
"La Caja del Seguro Social" could be "The Social Security Fund"
"Instituto Nacional de Seguros" could be "National Insurance Institute"
Hope that helps to understand what I really meant.
And when we are not losing jobs to other countries, we lose jobs to illegals who work without insurance. Further more this same illigals can then go to "La Caja del Seguro Social" and receive medical treatment without paying while all the other hard-working honest people who pay to "La Caja del Seguro Social" pay for the illegals medicine and treatment. It's so unjust. Further more! If you say something they just label you as xenophobic and racist. Fuck this government. All they want from foreigners are votes. Votes and nothing else. To keep power even if they have to half-destroy the country.
So, instead of blaming those who deprived the people of work, you choose to put the blame on disadvantaged immigrants?
Nice. It's always easier to blame somebody who has no say in anything than the real perpetrators.
It can't be two-ways. It's either commodities, capital assets and people move freely -- or nothing moves. The system is totally in favour of the big players at the expense of working people who struggle to make a living.
How exactly did I blame the illegals?
I blame the government. I thought I made that perfectly clear here:
Fuck this government. All they want from foreigners are votes. Votes and nothing else. To keep power even if they have to half-destroy the country.
I can explain even further what has been going on in Costa Rica, I've lived here my entire live, so I have a pretty good idea. But I will ask you to have an open mind, and to try to truthfully try to understand what I try to say and not just twist my words or put them out of context to make it sound like I said something I didn't.
You're playing with words, you blame the government for letting all the illegals in.
Those same foreigners that take your jobs and don't pay insurance, which is unfair because you, the "hardworking and honest" Costa Rican, have to pay insurance.
> "You're playing with words"
How?
> " you blame the government for letting all the illegals in."
Exactly
> "Those same foreigners that take your jobs and don't pay insurance"
yes
> "which is unfair because you, the "hardworking and honest" Costa Rican"
Not only me, but also every single one who's hardworking and honest. Also, I want to clarify that a lot of those illegals are hardworking. But not honest with their taxes or the law.
> "have to pay insurance"
Yes, and not only to one but to two institutions.
So? What's your point?
By the way. Why do you say "disadvantaged immigrants".
First off I said "illegals" not "immigrants".
Second. How do you know that?
Do you have any REAL info that can tell you that immigrants in Costa Rica are disadvantaged?
Because it's the opposite with illegals.
Illegals can say "I will work without giving me insurance".
And employers are more likely to believe him just because he's illegals.
But a native can't say that because employers will think it's a trap. I'm not kidding. They will think it's bait from "La Caja del Seguro Social".
The truth is "La Caja del Seguro Social" is in bankrupt. They won't tell, but it's true. They have been doing everything they can to insure as much people they can to try to pay the debts. So now you can imagine why employers will think that "will work without insurance" could be trap.
That's an advantage for illegals.
Another advantage is that after they get a job without paying to "La Caja del Seguro Social" they can still go to public hospitals and receive treatment paid by the people. Then go and never pay.
Hell. Right now why would anyone want to have a legal status, be honest and pay taxes in my country when illegals get all those benefits the state has to offer anyway and without paying?
As I said before. The state does this because they want votes. It's very easy for an illegal to gain legal status and then vote.
Wow, they truly must live the lifestyle of the rich and the famous, all those not "hardworking and honest" illegals.
Add up all the fraud made by illegals in the whole freaking galaxy, I'm pretty sure it's easily overshadowed by a fraction of those in the Panama Papers.
Advantage, give me a break.
Another disadvantage is having fingers being pointed at them whenever convenient.
Plus, what all this has to do with the original subject? Is it supposed to be an illustration of free speech?
> "Wow, they truly must live the lifestyle of the rich and the famous, all those not "hardworking and honest" illegals."
Are you implying that because they are not rich we have to victimize them? They are only victims of their country being a piece of shit and having to move. But you have to respect the law of the country you're moving to.
And these illegals don't.
> "Add up all the fraud made by illegals in the whole freaking galaxy, I'm pretty sure it's easily overshadowed by a fraction of those in the Panama Papers."
What are you talking about?
You are basically saying. "oh no! Poor illegals, they are so poor. danieru98 is evil for wanting to enforce the law of his country"
Btw, you didn't answer me: what all this has to do with the original subject, besides being an illustration? It's a rhetorical question at this stage.
All I'm saying is that, unlike what you answered to loldier,
you DO blame illegals/foreigners for your problems, suggesting that most of them are lazy and dishonest (since you're the "hard-working & honest" Costa Rican) like we're talking about a uniform mass of people, and not individuals.
I'm also saying that focusing so much on illegals as the source of your problems like a cowardly bully, and specially assigning to most of them negative attitudes and behaviors is what you did here.
No wonder you used that classic softener about you being labeled xenophobic and racist. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy...
But you're most likely just troll. Either way, who cares.
> "I'm also saying that focusing so much on illegals as the source of your problems"
I meant to say that they where part of the problem, not the source of the problem.
"Fuck this government. All they want from foreigners are votes. Votes and nothing else. To keep power even if they have to half-destroy the country."
Edit: And they are certainly not the source of my problems. I've never implied that. So stop acting like if I did. God, my only problem right now is finding some good anime, music, or movie to get a little entertainment.
Edit 2: But let's suppose that I have problems and illegals are indeed the source of my problems. Then what's so wrong about pointing out the source of my problems? Is this more of your "Let's victimize illegals because they do no wrong ever"?
This thread has been home to some interesting discussion, some trolling and some really inappropriate language, but I didn't want to close it (after moving it from the trisquel-users forum) in the hope that the good points would end up compensating for the bad (it frequently happens with such a diverse and vocal community).
That hasn't really happened (yet) and I've been losing hope while reading the new posts and several of your opinions about what we should do with the thread. I hope you understand that I don't want to silence anybody but this thread _is_ really impractical (in part because of the site layout, I know) and off-topic, so I will close its comments now.
I would recommend that you start new threads here if you want to follow-up discussion on some of the reasonably-free-software-related topics touched and take the chance to keep the heat on your words to a minimum --even the Troll Lounge gets pretty hot this time of year--
- Login o registrati per inviare commenti