blasphemous question here
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My dad needs Flashplayer at home, for work. Help?
I am a member!
Flash is non-free software, meaning it does not respect your freedom or community. It also uses spy features that track the user and their behavior.
If you need to use non-free software, perhaps another GNU/Linux distribution will fit your needs.
Unfortunately you won't find any help here for installing user subjugating software on Trisquel GNU/Linux.
Best regards
"Unfortunately you won't find any help here for installing subjugating software"
Oh, really? Speak only for yourself. If this person really need to install non-free software on Trisquel, then I gladly help him/her.
No. I just understand principle of "choice between two evils". If this person REALLY need Adobe Flash plugin, and if FLOSS alternatives(Gnash, etc) will not work, then s/he will switch to another no_such_free Linux distro. But others Linux distros usually not care about non-free soft. And instead of using only ONE non-free program(when all others are FLOSS), s/he will use much more, most probably. If I will help to install Adobe Flash plugin, then this will be lesser evil.
+1
El 17/05/13 08:03, name at domain escribió:
> No. I just understand principle of "choice between two evils". If this
> person REALLY need Adobe Flash plugin, and if FLOSS
> alternatives(Gnash, etc) will not work, then s/he will switch to
> another no_such_free Linux distro. But others Linux distros usually
> not care about non-free soft. And instead of using only ONE non-free
> program(when all others are FLOSS), s/he will use much more, most
> probably. If I will help to install Adobe Flash plugin, then this will
> be lesser evil.
>
I agree that installing one nonfree software on an otherwize free distro
is better than sending them to another distro. But please do not use
this list to do that. The distro guidelines clearly say it does not
provide, endorse or support nonfree software.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
Okay. I will use personal e-mail.
El 17/05/13 09:30, name at domain escribió:
> Okay. I will use personal e-mail.
>
>
Why don't you help him find a libre solution?
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
Why? There are so many persons, who want to help him with libre solution. If they fail, then I will help him to install Adobe Flash plugin.
May I respectfully suggest that when someone asks for help in using a non-free software package, perhaps he doesn't realize it's non-free, or perhaps he doesn't know of any free (as in freedom) alternatives. As a relative newcomer to Trisquel (and free software), I fell into both categories on this one. One might counter that the question could have been phrased better, but we newbies don't always think of those things because we're still getting our heads around this fabulous new (to us) concept.
Your first two paragraphs were pretty good in these respects, but instead of bashing him for wanting to install user-subjugating software, why not warn him of the hazards and suggest a few possible alternatives? That would be helpful, instructive, and supportive of our cause. Had I asked this question, that would have been the kind of answer I was really looking for, even if I hadn't realized it up front.
I think this is a great point. I'd really like to see this distribution succeed, and I think any hostility is counteractive. I understand that directions for installing nonfree software can't be given here, and I'm guessing that comes up often enough that the regulars are really sick of it, but a polite "no" while proposing alternatives (as some here are doing!) will be much more welcoming.
I am a translator!
Maybe you can post the site that he needs so we can test whether it works with Gnash or Lightspark?
On 17/05/13 21:58, name at domain wrote:
> My dad needs Flashplayer at home, for work. Help?
Does Gnash work? Lightspark?
How about SWFdec or Shumway?
Muhammed, did you need instructions for installing Adobe Flash plugin in Trisquel?
The only instructions for installing any nonfree program including Flash is:
1. Do whatever the developers tell you to do.
2. Hope what you did works and doesn't break your system.
3. Be subjugated by the nonfree software. Hope that the software doesn't do more subjugation than you expected.
Nobody on this forum is going to help with this process of subjugation. The most any of us are going to do is help the person who made the mistake of going through this process remove the nonfree software.
If nonfree software is absolutely needed (you should check first, try some solutions), then a distro that includes nonfree software is probably going to be better for your needs than a free system like Trisquel anyway.
Onpon4, you are really need to read this:
http://trisquel.info/en/forum/blasphemous-question-here#comment-34974
El 17/05/13 06:58, name at domain escribió:
> My dad needs Flashplayer at home, for work. Help?
>
It took me a lot of time to find a libre (free as in freedom) solution
to my hardware problem (months). But when I finally found a way to solve
it, I was glad I didn't give up. Perhaps you will feel the same thing
when you can help your father use his computer in freedom when you have
tried the alternatives that the people in this list have suggested
(Lightspark, Gnash, Flashdownloader). You could even ask to donate for
the development of the tools to use Flash with freedom.
The first thing to do is tell us on what he needs to use Flash on so we
can test it.
B'Free!
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
Traditions aside, being eager to help someone install non-free software is mainly hurting the community and the person himself (in the long run). It's not helping.
- A real help start with trying to clearly understand the issue: For what exactly is the non-free software used.
- Then try to find and propose free software solutions.
"mainly hurting the community and the person"
Yes. But sometimes the life not give good options. And then we must choice between two(or more) evils.
However, in this concrete case, we are still have hope for more optimistic scenario. I will help him to install Adobe Flash plugin ONLY if libre solutions will fail.
"It's not helping"
Analogy:
You are surgeon. You are have to amputate somebody leg, because otherwise the person will die. Yes, you are harm the person. But otherwise, without amputation will be much more harm.
I wouldn't compare amputation to using nonfree software. Amputation is bad because you lose some functionality of your body and necessary in some cases because it prevents serious problems from spreading. Using nonfree software is bad because you lose your freedom and maybe necessary because you need a certain function. It's rather more like needing to live in a certain freedom-hostile country for economic reasons; a less freedom-hostile country would be less bad than a more freedom-hostile country, but it would be better to not live at a freedom-hostile country at all. Hastily helping such a person move to the less freedom-hostile, but still freedom-hostile, country is not as good as attempting to help the person find a solution that doesn't involve moving to freedom-hostile countries at all.
The lesser of two evils should always be a last resort. Make sure there isn't a good choice first.
"The lesser of two evils should always be a last resort"
I know!
By the way, am I only one person, who reading all posts of this thread? If you read my previous posts, then you wouldn't say this.
I am a member!
muhammed, please answer the questions:
1. Have you tried to use Adobe Flash replacements like Gnash or Lightspark (newer versions than Trisquel's available at launchpad.net/~sparkers )?
2. Have you tried methods to get around Flash so you get, e.g., some media streamed through it? You could try, let's say, "youtube-dl" (CLI, downloads media from YouTube and many other websites), "ViewTube" (userscript for Firefox extension GreaseMonkey), "Linterna Magica"... go searching, I have not the links here :-)
Also, letting us now which is the nature of the task Flash will do for you father would help us help you.
Okay, people -- Let's be sure to keep the Trisquel Community Guidelines in mind here.
Specifically guideline 5:
Non-Free software is never a solution so please do not rationalize, justify, or minimize the consequences of proposing non-free software as a solution.
I think that is a pretty clear statement. It's not that we don't want to help but that in the long-term, aiding in the installation of non-free software isn't helping.
Is he using Abrowser, Firefox, or Chromium? If he is using Chromium and it is a life or death situation so he can pay the bills and needs to have the latest Flash, there is always http://www.webupd8.org/2013/04/install-pepper-flash-player-for.html which includes the latest version (currently 11.7) of Flash for Chromium.
P.S. Chromium is FLOSS but the Trisquel devs purge it from the repos. Get it back here: https://launchpad.net/~cmiller/+archive/ppa
Ooops, posted wrong link. This one is correct: https://launchpad.net/~cmiller/+archive/chromium-browser-stable-daily
Please do not recommend proprietary software here.
I don't recommend non-free soft.
akirashinigami was addressing t3g
I understand that the Flash player is, but the jury is still out on Chromium. The license is free software but the programs they include with it have questionable licenses.
On 18/05/13 08:47, t3g wrote:
> P.S. Chromium is FLOSS but the Trisquel devs purge it from the
> repos.
Hopefully one day it will be put into Trisquel. There is a relevant bug
report here: https://trisquel.info/en/issues/4353
"Chromium is FLOSS"
No. Chromium only semi-FLOSS. Some parts of the code not even have OSI-approved licenses.
My dad uses LogMeIn for work. The service lets my dad check his work computer from home. LogMeIn uses Flash. My dad accesses the service at logmein.com
I was really into 2pac in highschool. I remember hearing him say this:
“I know what good morals are, but you're supposed to disregard good morals when you're living in a crazy, bad world. If you're in hell, how can you live like an angel? You're surrounded by devils, trying to be an angel? That's like suicide.”
I guess that's a judgement call. I agree with the sentiment. It's not always worth it --or strategic-- to be absolutely principled. 2pac may have been paraphrasing Machiavelli ... I'll check when I re-read The Prince this summer.
I think that roboq6 shares this view. I appreciate roboq6's support.
The world is full of anchors at the convenience end of the spectrum. This community needs anchors at the principle end of the spectrum. If every user-group compromises when facing a challenge, we would undermine the principles that brought us together.
Asking the Trisquel community for help to install proprietary software is expensive, because Trisquel is the free software community's main anchor.
I am asking for help here, only to the extent that a free solution is possible. If a free solution is not possible, I will respect the Community Guidelines and go elsewhere for a solution.
"This community needs anchors at the principle end of the spectrum"
+1
"go elsewhere for a solution"
You can contact me via my e-mail. I don't think this will be violation of Guidelines.
"check his work computer from home"
I think the solution quite simple.
http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-remote-desktop-for-controlling-windows-xp-desktop.html
http://www.7tutorials.com/connecting-windows-remote-desktop-ubuntu
Remmina is default in Trisquel. Try this with RDP.
Or install VNC on Windows and choose this in Remmina.
Access Trisquel from Windows with xrdp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbJ2tbXcHus
And access Windows from Trisquel with RDP in Remmina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCyRBoZ_eGM
--
One tip: You can do the most or all with only free software if you want. You need to search and try the better solution for you.
I believe it is not beneficial for people to say "if you want to use non-free software, you're not welcome in Trisquel", by way of immediately recommending to try another distro.
The best approach here would be to suggest help to the user to solve their problem using free software (and it became clear that's what they were asking for after all, in this case.) If that doesn't satisfy them, then it's time to point out that the community isn't in the businuess of helping people install proprietary, potentially defective software on Trisquel. People can figure out for themselves if they want to try another distro.
Big arguments between members of the community can drive away users with honest questions.
I for one am interested in these flash alternatives I've never heard of. Where could someone find more info about Lightspark and FlashDownloader
I am a translator!
Lightspark can be obtained via PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~sparkers/+archive/ppa
Note that there is in fact a newer version available (0.7.2) which one can compile from source.
You can also try "Linterna Magica", it's a greasemonkey script which can play flash videos when lightspark or gnash fails.
There's also an addon for Abrowser called "Viewtube" you can try.
Looking at the whole discussion, I can summarize my considerations like this:
1. I think I can accept the community guidelines as they are, so I will stay.
2. I will disagree with everyone who makes the community guidelines to his personal guidelines in this special point, but I think there are many members in this forum who don't do this. Whenever I disagree with most people in a community, I should better leave it, but this seems not to be the case here, but I'm not really sure at all.
I completely agree, well said. I'm interested too, just tried installing Lightspark via but I can't tell if it worked.
I am a member!
I find this whole post interesting, jxself asks everybody to follow the Community guidelines and yet this is a quote from them "We will always remain gentle and persistent in our efforts for a fair treatment of software users"
I said in another post that one mans freedom is another mans prison - As far as Im aware aware there is only one developer for Trisquel so someone like me with no programming ability is in fact a 'prisioner'of the developer (in the kindest way possible) It seems to me that many problems with Trisquel will persist untill there are more than one 'official' developers.
> jxself asks everybody to follow the Community guidelines
I was referring to the part that "non-free software is never a solution so please do not rationalize, justify, or minimize the consequences of proposing non-free software as a solution."
By the way, if Gnash/Lightspark will work, then this is not the best possible libre solution. Because swf-file, most probably, contain proprietary program. And the site have, most probably,have proprietary JavaScripts.
Because of this, I recommend to use something like this:
http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-remote-desktop-for-controlling-windows-xp-desktop.html
http://www.7tutorials.com/connecting-windows-remote-desktop-ubuntu
Muhammed might make the choice to use non-free software, but it's still his choice. He is still FREE to choose that. That is what I thought this was about, freedom. He is installing a program like Adobe Flash, because while Gnash/Lightspark are available, they may not fit his needs. I know because I had to make this decision for work as well where my students are required by the school to learn Adobe Flash because the professionals in the industry they are going into use Adobe Flash. So I do my best to accommodate their needs while also addressing alternative possibilities. NO, I will NOT just give up my job because I can't force the school to use free software. If you know of any schools teaching Gnash/Lightspark, please point them out to me. We all have different circumstances and angles that we are coming at this problem from.
In Richard Stallman's biography "Free as In Freedom", it mentions how the initial build up of the GNU Operating System sometimes happened on non-free systems, until they could create an adequate alternative. Also consider that many people here are running non-free BIOS. While the core-boot project exists, there are still problems and limitations with it. Should I suggest people not use BIOS because it non-free? How then will they boot up Trisquel if coreboot does not work on their system? Or tell them that I will not deal with them unless they are using coreboot or a free alternative to BIOS? When many of us are claiming that we take a hard stance on only using non-free software or no software at all, does that mean you are using a free BIOS? Same thing for any of us here using smartphones, Google, non-free javascripts in a browser, and a whole host of other software.
Thank you roboq6 for offering a helping hand OFF SITE. You are HELPING the person, even if they choose to use non-free software. Because in the end you are respecting their choice even if you do not agree with it, and you understand their situation is not yours. Not everyone poses the technical knowledge, ability, skill, or circumstance to be able to make the switch to free software cold turkey. Treating people as if they have to make this choice or they will be shunned, is wrong. Help them the best way you can.
muhammed if you need the help with solving your flash issue please contact me off site as well, ron "at" ronbravo dot com is my email.
I want to help you because you are here posting and asking for help. At bear minimum I know you are concerned with Free software principals and are looking for ways to stay in that "pure" free software only realm, which is NOT always a possibility. I want you to stay and have a positive experience. So I will help you however I can.
+1
+3
El 19/05/13 05:44, name at domain escribió:
> +3
-6
Richard Stallman's objective was not to work with the non-free software
but to use it to develop a free alternative. Of course anyone is free to
use non-free software. But it is no way a benefit for them. Anyone is
free to cut themselves with a razor. But if you help them, that will do
them no good even if that helps them keep their job. The only way to do
good onto them if you helped them would be if they would not be able to
survive if they would not use non-free software.
By the way of BIOS issue, it is not good to use a BIOS that is modified
by another person without your ability to audit it. The next step is to
have a BIOS that is completely modifiable. And the last step is to have
free available schematics for hardware. We are on the first step now. We
should not go back and loose the advance we have achieved.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
When Richard created GNU doesn't had one free operating system. The only way was do GNU with non-free software but today you can do animation or another with only free software.
You compare different things. Non-free BIOS is hard to change and if you really want you can try buy one compatible mother board and install yourself.
I use only free software for graphics, office, internet, audio and more but the most uses softwares from Adobe, Corel, Autodesk, Microsoft, Apple, etc.
So everybody here needs to use non-free software because the market uses it? I said in another comment: "you can do all or the most with only free software, you need to search the better solution for you."
--
One tip: try Synfig, Blender or another for animation.
guideline 5:
"Non-Free software is never [(!!)] a solution"
This statement is very bad and not intelligent. You really should re-formulate it.
I mentioned somewhere the three groups of victims of proprietary software.
People who can't avoid proprietary software are one of this groups.
There are thousands of scenarios (some might be very theoretical, but they can happen) in which proprietary software IS a solution; consider the gun on your head, to exaggerate a little bit.
I saw the whole world using proprietary software; then I switched on my brain, and that's why I'm here, that's why I'm using only free software. I would make many, many victims for using free software, but if I have the choice between dying and using prop. software, I surely will use proprietary software, and that's sensible.
Just repeating such sentences like the above over and over again is like switching my brain off again; just like I did before.
Why not taking a new formulation like:
"Non free software is never a solution this forum will recommend".
That's just ok.
I could accept that. With this, you won't make this very questionable statement from above.
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