Ethical dillema about Trisquel GNU'LINUX. In need of the community response.

33 respuestas [Último envío]
Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Recently, I had a visit from a very close and old friend of mines. During the long Parle, of many new subjects and issues. The subject of his old laptop came up; “the famous WIN XP PRO” was acting up. He wanted to format the whole drive and install something different and not spend anything. And just be worry free from copyrights.

The productivity package that he desires is a office package, AutoCAD/architecture, scanning, browser, photo editing with rendering tools.
He reminds me of my old laptop previous issues.

I open up my old laptop and debuted in front of his eyes, “Trisquel 5.5” and right away, he dived into the screen of the world of GNU’LINUX. I did my best,in lame terms, explaining: what is “GNU/LINUX, the difference between proprietary software and hardware drivers and “Libre software and drivers.” etc, etc. I did explain him of my Wi=Fi drivers conflicts and Trisquel.

My friend reminded he uses his laptop at work, connected through a Wi-Fi to keep track of all his reports, projects and inventory.

Anyhow, to make the story short, I kept his laptop with the mission to format the drive and install Trisquel 5.5.

BUT!
During the process of familiarization of thE laptop hardware, I discover, the WIFI card is not listed according to I-node.

My friend’s laptop info is:
Acer travelmate 4500 series, model number ZL1. The Wi-Fi card is a Intel pro, wireless 2200g.
512 DDR 1 RAM
120 gb drive.

I’m asking the community, in case the Wi-Fi does not work; what should I do?, What would you recommend?

Honestly, as much I hate and love “Trisquel” it has become an ethical dilemma, in keeping it simple, and honest. I will not lie to my friend; specially for a newbie, about to be introduced to world of Linux. To be introduced to Linux, the wrong way, it is a hard pill to be swallow and then suffer the negative side effects.

I personally don’t want to start with a bad impression. Just start a good one, to motivate him, in learning and be educated about GNU/LINUX.

My friend and I know each other, for over 10 years and what kept our relationship alive is our honesty and loyalty to each other and families.

Right know, I’m still holding his laptop un-touch.

Thank You all

PS
I could easily upload other Linux, but I would like to keep him around with Trisquel.

rakubx

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 09/22/2010

To solve the Wifi problem maybe buy it :
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-g-usb-adapter
or find something else and try.

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

> I’m asking the community, in case the Wi-Fi does not work;
> what should I do?, What would you recommend?

Well, the optimal solution would be to get a USB WiFi adapter, such as the one sold at http://libre.thinkpenguin.com. Just be straight with your friend: tell him that the manufacturer of the WiFi card decided not to properly support free systems with it. Just make sure he understands it's the fault of the WiFi card and its manufacturer, not GNU/Linux. You might also do well to suggest buying his next computer (when it comes time for a new one) at Think Penguin, since those are always designed to work well with free software.

lammi87

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Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/27/2012

Yeah, you should just buy a new wifi card or a USB wifi adapter supported by free software. Also, please report your friends laptop and its parts to h-node by booting it up from a Trisquel GNU/Linux live-CD (or any other fully free distro of your choise) if you can. It would help.

ThinkPenguin sells USB wifi adapters. They also sell mini PCI cards which might be more convenient to use that USB adapters.

Chris

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/23/2011

Make sure you blame the culprit responsible here: Intel & Acer.

Trisquel and the free software community are not getting the cooperation needed to support this intel wifi card. If you buy hardware less hostile to free software there isn't likely to be a problem.

The good news is you can replace the wifi card in this laptop with one that is freedom friendly. Acer is a better choice for hardware than a lot of other names out there. They have not implemented a restriction on the mini PCI slot (* at least not as far as I've come across as of this date).

Besides the USB G adapter option there is also a mini pci card option most likely. You can replace the card inside the laptop. It looks like it should be an easy thing to do. There appears to be one screw holding on a cover on the bottom of this laptop which contains the mini pci card.

That said it appears either of the following two cards we sell should be compatible:

Penguin Wireless G Mini PCI for GNU / Linux

And this would probably also work (it would be an upgrade on what is in the system now):

Penguin Wireless N Mini PCI for GNU / Linux

GustavoCM

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 11/20/2012

No links appeared, Chris.

Jodiendo, I would boot the system with a Trisquel LiveCD and test the wireless; if it doesn't work, which is most probable, then I would teach my (your) friend about what many companies do in order to have control of the market: restrict the consumer/user's freedom of movement so he depends only on some entity (company) to get support for the product. Sometimes he is even forced to buy new "restricted" equipments to use some proprietary/restrictive software he got from people/companies who has agreements with the producers of such equipment... search for "planned obsolescence".

If my (your) friend really wanted that wi-fi card working, discarding the hypothesis of buying friendly hardware which doesn't restrict his decisions, then I would show him some GNU/Linux distribution which includes proprietary/restrictive software -- after all, it's better to be restricted only in what regards to wireless, BIOS and CPU microcode than to be restricted in that and in everything else. I would do that keeping very clear that, simultaneously, he is acquiring freedom in many ways but not in other ways; and, if you do not have freedom in 100% of your machine, then you are not free with it: there is no human percentage of freedom, you keep being restricted, bounded to third parties' decisions.

Also, let's remember that, if he needs specialized applications like AutoCAD, he may not be able to use it in GNU/Linux; perhaps in Wine ( http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=86 ), but this is not guaranteed. Also, I bet there is unfortunately no comparable CAD application for GNU/Linux.

If in last instance he can't use GNU/Linux only, you could manage to dual boot it with Windows so he could use the one of his preference, or even virtualize Windows within Trisquel or other distro, using e.g. VirtualBox, available in Trisquel repositories.

If that would not happen, take a look at this list of Free Software programs for Windows and, with his consentment, begin replacing the current installed stuff for it: https://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html (there is many compilations of Free Software for Windows; search for "OpenDisc", "Qumble", "Valo-CD").

MagicFab
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/13/2010

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Le 13-02-08 10:24 PM, name at domain a écrit :
> Besides the USB G adapter option there is also a mini pci card option most likely. You can
replace the card inside the laptop. It looks like it should be an easy
thing to do. There appears to be one screw holding on a cover on the
bottom of this laptop which contains the mini pci card. I don't believe
acer has digital restrictions on any of its laptops in regards to the
mini pci slot.
>
> That said it appears either of the following two cards we sell should
be compatible:

I'd highly recommend the above, make sure they would fit in that laptop
by double-checking the maintenance manual (normally available online on
the website).

The links for the hardware Chris mentioned are:
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-g-mini-pci
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-mini-pci

F.

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ronbravo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/01/2010

Most here may not agree with my response but I would suggest, for someone who is new to the GNU Linux environment, to get them a distro that will give them the least problems when it comes to compatibility with hardware. I did this with my friends and family as I gave them Ubuntu distributions first so that they could get used to using a different OS period. As time has gone on I have slowly weaned them off of Ubuntu to Trisquel.

The Ubuntu community and resources is huge, and I wanted them to have a positive experience as they transition from Windows to GNU Linux. I am not always available for support so this would allow them to get answers to problems on their own. While WiFi may be the only problem currently, there is the potential your friend could have existing or new hard he may try to use with his laptop that might be incompatible later. This can be a headache for new users who are not as patient as myself or many of the users here.

As your friend begins to get comfortable with the new OS environment, you can also educate him on the software ideals of Free Software. Which is the most important part. Education of what Free Software is. If the overall experience is positive, then he may be more willing to move to a completely free system like Trisquel.

You DO NOT have to cut your friend off of non-free software cold turkey. Help him to make a graceful and smoother transition into a more ethical software environment.

While my solution is not ideal, I use it as a compromise. As I watch the Trisquel project mature and gain support through the donation and hardware support through thinkpenguin, I feel it is close to getting to the point where I can have friends and family make the transition cold turkey.

For now I chose to compromise in favour of delivering an overall positive experience for their first time using GNU Linux.

MagicFab
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/13/2010

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Le 13-02-09 12:37 PM, name at domain a écrit :
> Most here may not agree with my response but I would suggest, for someone who is new to the GNU Linux
environment, to get them a distro that will give them the least problems
when it comes to compatibility with hardware. I did this with my friends
and family as I gave them Ubuntu distributions first so that they could
get used to using a different OS period. As time has gone on I have
slowly weaned them off of Ubuntu to Trisquel.

I don't agree with this.

I was a huge Ubuntu advocate until recently.

I stopped doing what you suggest as it would backfire to me frequently,
and people would ask many questions about Canonical's recent decisions.
It didn't matter if I agreed or not, this introduced a far more negative
impression, and implied I should explain the rationale (and incoherence)
of such decisions.

I have now switched to using primarily Trisquel (version 6) and Debian.
It makes more sense to make a bit more effort to have properly supported
hardware, contribute to Gnome, get friendly help here (including not
being blasted when I make a choice based on my ethics), etc.

F.

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onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

I second this.

Including nonfree drivers and firmware does not result in the least amount of problems; it results in the most amount of problems being hidden. Eventually the nonfree software will fail, and when it does, the person you introduced GNU/Linux to will be frustrated and assume it's a problem with the OS, and that Windows is just better, which isn't true.

On the other hand, if you use a distro like Trisquel, that problem shows itself immediately. This allows you to be up-front with it; rather than your friend thinking everything is good and getting frustrated later, he/she will know about the problem *now*, and he/she will have the option to use the crappy temporary fix, but with the knowledge that it is not a solution and that he/she should buy new, better hardware ASAP. Or preferably, he/she will just buy new hardware in the first place.

It might be tempting to try to sugar-coat the situation, because it does help in the short term, but in the long term, the frustration of things no longer working will only drive people away.

ronbravo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/01/2010

I understand what you are saying, unfortunately most of my friends and family do not. As I have given them partially working installations of Trisquel due to lack of free drivers, only to have them ask me to re-install Windows. Which having them switch back to Windows does not solve the problem either.

Many of the people I know are not in a position to purchase new or more compatible hardware due to economic reasons. So while this is a solution, it is not something that works for everyone. As they are able to discover the problem *now* they are also stuck with it.

My suggestion was just based on the feedback and experience I have had with people as I tried to educate about Free Software and other available Operating Systems. In the end, they wanted a completely functional computer regardless of the ethical issues, and unfortunately were not willing to wait while the Free Software community builds support for what is lacking.

I have been able to be patient and adjust my software and computing needs to accommodate some of the challenges that free distros like Trisquel face, however others are not always so willing. At least the people I have dealt.

Others may have had different experiences that are more successful in transferring people to a Free OS. I still stand by my recommendation.

Good luck to you as try and help your friend make the transition to a more free environment.

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

My brother quit Linux Mint despite having huge slowdown problems with Windows probably because of a combination of a few small issues (some driver issue with the video that caused bad 3D graphics, trouble with his wireless, and lack of nonfree game support). His conclusion in the end was that "Linux" sucks. (For the record, his laptop has Intel graphics, so I doubt it was a bad hardware issue; he probably just needed a kernel update.)

The thing is, some people are going to be impatient with new things, so if just a couple things go wrong, they will decide they want what they are used to back.

I think completely replacing a working Windows system that someone is used to with a half-working GNU/Linux system that they are not used to is an unwise idea. If Trisquel can work without missing any important features (in particular, WiFi on laptops), then introducing it to that person is a good idea, but it should be installed alongside Windows, not in place of it. Dual-booting allows the person to transition as his/her own pace and retreat back to the familiar system if a seemingly terrifying problem arises.

If Trisquel can't work without missing important features, I think it's better to introduce free programs that can run on top of the system they are using, such as LibreOffice, Firefox, and GIMP. Then, the next time they are out to buy a new computer, help them pick one out that will work well with a free system like Trisquel, i.e. Intel graphics, HP printer, a wireless card that works, and a sound card that works. Then install GNU/Linux alongside Windows so they can get used to it.

MagicFab
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/13/2010

On 13-02-12 09:02 PM, name at domain wrote:
> My suggestion was just based on the feedback and experience I have had
> with people as I tried to educate about Free Software and other
> available Operating Systems. In the end, they wanted a completely
> functional computer regardless of the ethical issues, and
> unfortunately were not willing to wait while the Free Software
> community builds support for what is lacking.

Please realize this is the actual problem: as long as you keep thinking
you can "wait while the Free Software community builds support for what
is lacking" you don't stand a chance of effectively introducing anyone
to IT freedom. The problem is not the community. The problem are the
manufacturers and software publishers. It's easy to forget that, but
it's even easier to let someone go with that lasting (wrong) idea.

If they "wanted a completely functional computer regardless of the
ethical issues", Trisquel is not for them. Given the option, I wouldn't
install Ubuntu, I would install alternatives applications (GIMP fro
Windows, Thundebird for Windows, etc.) as the other message in this
thread suggests. *That* in my opinion is a better path of migration.

F.

--
Fabián Rodríguez
http://fsf.magicfab.ca

Chris

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/23/2011

The problem with randomly installing GNU/Linux is the hardware in general isn't well supported. It'll work today although not tomorrow. There really isn't a problem with Ubuntu on hardware which is better supported from an ease of use perspective.

Getting people to move away from a non-free OS to a mostly free OS /w non-free pieces can also create its own problems. By attracting such users who are willing to accept non-free pieces you introduce disincentive to those supporting free software.

If Ubuntu has 90% of the GNU/Linux market it is harder to make the argument that free software is a necessity for companies to support GNU/Linux. If they don't need to provide free drivers/firmware they won't. The users are accepting missing features, stagnation, and that the hardware won't work for long.

jxself
Desconectado/a
se unió: 09/13/2010

I've heard others advocate a similar strategy involving a multi-step
strategy of moving people to free software. The problem I find with
this is that everyone then spends all of their time on step one (being
more free than they were in step zero) and no one moves on to step two
(fully free.) We need more people to work on step two -- There are
already plenty working on step one.

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Sorry guys, been working extra long hours on the field.

Here is the latest news, as of today.

After explaining, the lack of full cooperation, That certain companies consider those drivers and firmware to be theirs, and sometimes there is no support TO THE GNU/linux COMMUNITY: hes reply was: "DO WHAT IS BEST FOR ME".

My friend told me, since his laptop is old , he wishes not to spend any money.

Honestly, I sence, he is getting a bit hesitant about it. I got to finish the project, no deadline yet, but the body gestures and eyes, do speak a million words.

Dammit, I just order a card for myself, I wish I could bought him one...I got no more money to spare, until the end of the month.

I have an idea:

I will try to persuade him to purchase a new WiFi card with the idea that we will share the cost of purchase.

Looking. at the worst case scenario, If he say's NO! What other Linux distro will you recommend?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Trisquel Live CD testing.

The live CD boot=s up well and it works on the nick card, but the WiFi is totally screw. It registers the WiFi mac address, but the functionality is zero to nothing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo

Gracias for the hints, I was lost for a moment in finding the replacement free software.

======================================================================
Christ
"I wish you could send me my WiFi PCI card, that I order" ASAP so I could show him!

Just kidding Christ.
===================================================================

Everyone's suggestions are great, remember, it is my friends property, and he has the final word.

Respectfully

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

Not wanting to spend money because the computer is old. Sounds like my mom. If you're feeling charitable, you could offer to buy something for him, but that might not be something you can do.

Try mentioning this: if a new component is bought, it can be used on future laptops and other computers in addition to his current laptop, so it isn't a waste. That can be said about a lot of components, actually, and it's kind of odd that people don't seem to notice this. Perhaps to make this argument work (since some laptops are difficult to open up), a USB adapter would make more sense, but that depends on how easy it is to put a new wireless card into your friend's laptop.

MagicFab
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/13/2010

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Le 13-02-09 01:48 PM, name at domain a écrit :
> Dammit, I just order a card for myself, I wish I could bought him one...I got no more money to spare,
until the end of the month.
> I have an idea:
> I will try to persuade him to purchase a new WiFi card with the idea
that we will share the cost of purchase.

Instead, wait to get your card. Test yours in his system (be careful
when disassembling/reassembling :).

If it works, it msakes your point, including zero risk for him to order
another one.

F.

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Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Ronbravo and MAGIC FAB

Thanks for your suggestion, all are valid.

I'm going to stick to my game plan on persuade him to purchase and sharing the cost for a card or an adapter, that will ease the pain. I think he is getting a sweet deal from me, sort of speak.

While typing, on my previous post. This plan an idea came from reading everyone's view.

I just want to keep him around Trisquel GNU/LINUX and the concept of "Libre" software.

In the future, As he becomes Linux savvy, If he chooses to "drift" to other Linuxes That would be his decision, not mines.

I could said: I did my best from the start.

I will go the extra mile, to keep him around, not taking any short cuts yet.

When I was introduced to Linux. no one help me, I learn by reading and experimenting with other distributions. I discover GNU/LINUX specially Trisquel by accident. I'm not a developer or a software writer, but a person, who had problems of a particular proprietary software that I paid for, suddenly stop working. Specially when the old laptop was still working.

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Christ

If I'm successful in persuading him, once I purchase what ever adapter we choose. Don't forget to toss a mouse pad in the package just for "libre" purposes. LOL

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Onpong

Excellent suggestions.

You just gave me more ammunition to reinforce my comments.....Are you sure you are a Lawyer? lol

Thank You

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

JXself

Exactly, If I'm successful I believe I graduated from Step one.

So, in your own interpretation, what is Step 2?

Be my Polaris star on this one, just guide me.

Hey, I could pin point with accuracy the Polaris star at night, If you need help.

During my Army days, One of the advance land navigation techniques, was only to use and manufacture a field improvise sextant, without a magnetic compass or map in a triple canopy swamp jungle in Panama for three weeks of living hell.

My team was able to locate all 30 markers, in 12 hours. In an area of 60 miles. Infested with exotic animals that were hungrier than you and deadlier,

Our only motivation to survive was:

1- The desire and dream that all of us would survived collectively,

2- Be at the bar on Friday Night drinking piña colada with our love ones and friends.

3- Not to include the "next day Off, much need it "rest"

4- We were the first team to established a mew installation training record and standard.

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Bad news

Trisquel is not able to install on his laptop, the minimum requirements is 512k of memory, His laptop only has 486k.

I had to switch to something else light that will use lesser amount of memory.

In the mean time, while I was doing this, I did lend him my old laptop which has trisquel already.

The only distro that I could fiT was Slitaz which is a GNU=LINUX distribution not supported by the foundation.

I did downloaded a few of the distro that are supported by the foundation, and It was the same issue. We are still friends and he is happy with the light weight, until he finds that DRD1 memory, NO TRISQUEL.

This matter is consider close.

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

486 kilobytes of RAM? That was extremely small years ago. Surely you must mean 486 megabytes of RAM?

Assuming you actually meant MB and not KB, all you need to do to fix the problem is install a lightweight DE, like LXDE or Xfce. Xfce is what the OpenPandora uses, with only 256 MB of RAM. Trisquel Mini comes with LXDE.

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Onpo4

You are right is only 486 Meg, I did try Trisquel Mini, it DOES NOT WORK, it requires 512-Meg as a minimum. Trisquel Mini is not designed for systems with less than 512 Megs of ram.

Trisquel kick the bucket on this one, as much I liked, it does not work, neither will allow you to complete the installation, it shuts down.

Case closed. This IS A old laptop, made in 2005.

Lets move on. again close case.

Chris

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/23/2011

A 7 year old laptop is REALLY pushing it technologically. It might be time for a new system :)

With GNU/Linux in general though you can usually keep such systems on life support without going insane longer though. Just use the LTS releases. But even that has its limits.

I do have one system at my disposal with 512MB or so of ram. Maybe a little more from 2005 and it works pretty well all things considered. I don't think it works with the latest releases though. At least not without more ram. It doesn't have 3d accelerated graphics or anything like that.

Technically the board has 3d although there weren't any people with a firm grasp of how to go about solving the hardware problem. Or at least not anybody doing anything to actually fix it at the time. To be more blunt when I asked at the time (and was working for the company) another employee I talked to said distributor in question was not looking to get into the hardware business (big mistake if you ask me). This was a system supported/sold through a partnership of a major distributor focused on the desktop and a hardware vendor. Like Dell + Canonical's partnership they failed to recognize all the little pieces that were needed to "get it right".

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

Chris said:

A 7 year old laptop is REALLY pushing it technologically. It might be time for a new system :)

With GNU/Linux in general though you can usually keep such systems on life support without going insane longer though. Just use the LTS releases. But even that has its limits.
===============================================================
Exactly,I was going insane with that laptop. It Surely, tested my patience. Rest assure, I'm more savvy with knowledge in the compatibility arena. The next time, If, I ever come across a laptop with anything less than 512 Meg ram is a "no go"!

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

I don't know if you tried Dragora, but that should work on such a system the next time you come across one. It's supposed to be lightweight and simple, and it lists 64 MB as its minimum RAM requirement.

GustavoCM

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 11/20/2012

I would suggest it too, but it is KISS; non-experienced (or, better, not-willing-to-experienciate) users may have troubles with it. It seems the case of this man and his friend.

Jodiendo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 01/09/2013

It was all libre volunteer service, I tested 6 different OSI, 3 from GNU'LINUX and SLItaz did the job. It felt like I was working under pressure and not getting paid for it. I had better luck with P3 and P4 desktop but laptops this old was extremely hard. Yet, my friend told me, that he will upgrade the Ram, and try out trisquel. Remenber I lend him my old laptop using trisquel and he like it,

Mampir
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/16/2009

I have used Trisquel 5.5 on a laptop with 256 RAM and a 700 MHz x86 processor. It was probably made around 1999-2000. It was my main computer for about 4 months. I used it mainly for communicating (email and Jabber), web browsing, notes and web development. It was adequate.

I installed a barebone system using the netinstall image. After that I installed the xorg package, a light window manager, GNU Emacs, Epiphany, Evince, Gajim and Mutt, mpop, msmtp and some other programs. For a window manager I used mainly ratpoison, but sometimes Openbox instead.

Chris

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/23/2011

:) What you can get away with after a heavy amount of custom configuration is a bit beyond most users. I think we all know GNU/Linux can be made to work on very little. Just look at the raspberry pi. It isn't something I'd want to use and it can't do half the things a typical desktop can. However it is running X and you can browse the web with one. Still this is beyond what most people would put up with (except for those on 7 year old MS Windows systems- for them it would be an upgrade still :) ).

jakel
Desconectado/a
se unió: 10/06/2009

Out of curiosity, did you try ConnochaetOS? (http://www.connochaetos.org/wiki/)

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

This GNU/Linux distribution runs for sure: :-)
Minimum hardware requirements are:

A i586 compatible processor (i. e. Pentium I)
At least 64 MB RAM
At least a 2 GB hard disk