Hardware Issues in Trisquel? Buy a Pre-Installed Trisquel Computer.
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The best and easiest way to switch to Trisquel is to buy a computer with Trisquel pre-installed.
Users new to Trisquel have enough to adjust to without dealing with hardware issues. The user experience is different, the programs names are different, and non-GNU Public License(GPL)'ed things won't work: e.g. Adobe Flash browser plugin (.f4p)--good riddens, even Steve Jobs disliked Flash. The ideals of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and the premissiveness of GPL'ed software could even be new concepts to the new Trisquel user.
Converting computers that came with something other than Trisquel not only can create hardware support headaches, but it also fails to fund the computer vendors that are dedicated to building computers with components with GPL'ed software drivers. These vendors then can fund the OEM's that are dedicated to selling components with GPL'ed software drivers.
This is also a donation to the GPL'ed software cause. For a given donation amount, one gets a computer with Trisquel installed and fully functional hardware.
Your WiFi card, graphics card, etc. doesn't work in Trisquel? Spare the headache and the frustration: Buy a computer from a vendor that has already gone to H-Node.org and suffered though the GPL driver support issues when building the computer.
Think Penguin and ZaReason are the computer vendors that sell computers with Trisquel preinstalled.
Please post other computer vendors that sell computers with Trisquel installed.
I looked at Zareason and none of the computers list Trisquel as an OS choice. I also see at least one computer they sell that comes with a Radeon GPU. I don't know about the WiFi cards, but that does not look like a good place to get a new computer from to me (seems more akin to System76 than Think Penguin).
True.
ZaReason doesn't list Trsiquel as a seletable operating system. One must select "other" and ask for Trisquel by name and ask that all the hardware still works. ZaReason will reply back if they can deliver.
Think Penguin does list Trisquel specifically as an OS. AND through this URL, will 25% of the profits of the sale to Trisquel:
http://trisquel.info/sites/countclick.php?url=http://libre.thinkpenguin.com
Think Penguin really is my prefered computer vendor in that they will pay suppliers who provide GPL compatible hardware and help fund Trisquel.
Well, that isn't saying much. Just because they might give you a computer with Trisquel doesn't mean their hardware will work well with Trisquel. I would be willing to bet that a lot of their computers' WiFi wouldn't work, and I know for a fact that 3D won't work for some of them (the ones with AMD graphics).
All of the software included in Trisquel is free software, but not all of it is licensed under the GNU GPL. As long as the terms of the license respect the users' freedom, the software can be included in Trisquel.
GPL compatible
Or acceptable to the Free Software Foundation, Software in the Public Interest, and/or Debian Foundation
A GNU Project distro + Linux + X: another topic.
It doesn't all need to be GPL-compatible, either. GPL-compatibility is a good thing, but because it makes development of free software easier. All free software is ethical, whether compatible with the GPL or not.
Here are some suggestions https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw
And if you have physical access to a new machine, you can easily try the hardware on a live CD or live USB to see if various things work. Usually 3D and wireless are the most problematic regular parts. Here's how to make said live media https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/installation-guide
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Your probably going to end up contributing to development/promotion/etc of non-free software if you use Trisquel to test random hardware for various reasons. One obvious one being the OS tied to the hardware your buying although less obvious ones are the hardware which comes with it (wifi card dependent on non-free code, etc). Most of the hardware out there is already got enough issues that this method isn't really that desirable/feasible.
As an example: Dell, HP, Lenovo/IBM, and Toshiba have implemented digital restrictions on all or at least some of there systems in recent years.
You can also avoid contributing to the population which supports “trusted computing” by not buying into it. Trying to avoid DRM, trusted computing, funding non-free software development, etc. is a near impossible task.
At best you can get a more-free software friendly system (from ThinkPenguin, and probably nobody else at the moment) but nothing is going to be 100%.
There are insurmountable issues right now and contributing to companies that don't really care isn't helping. You can find hardware elsewhere that will work mind you. Most hardware is available from many companies. It's just there not doing anything to support free software and identifying the hardware is much harder than most people realize for various reasons. It's not clearly labeled, it may not be what was reported by others, etc.
@m971668:
I don't share your opinion on the "best" way !
It might be the easiest approach for a technically non-skilled user to buy a pre-configured system with Trisquel already installed but it also comes at a pretty steep price-tag. Not everyone can afford to buy a new system from thinkpenguin for example. Also the more open Intel system come at a higher price tag than the average AMD-based systems.
For the more skilled users for a standard desktop IMO it boils down to this:
- Avoid AMD-based GPUs
- Stick to NVidia-based GPUs which are not newer than GeForce 9X00 generation
- WLAN is critical and you should consider buying a WLAN solution from Thinkpenguin to save you headache. A typical LAN-to-WLAN bridge will work as well and make you indepedent from a PC-based WLAN device
- LAN cards will often work out-off-the-box with Trisquel while some motherboard-integrated NICs may fail. Cheap USB NICs or Realtec-based cards will most likely always work.
Intel-based CPU / GPU combinations might work better but come at a much steeper price tag plus they are not perfect either.
Example: I just recently set up an old AMD Sempron with 2GB DDR RAM, 80GB HD and a GeForce 5700 card. Works perfectly with Trisquel 6.0 out off the box. Obboard soundcard works as well as the NIC.
Just my two cents,
Holger
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On 2013-03-27 05:46, name at domain wrote:
> @m971668: [...] Not everyone can afford to buy a new system from
> thinkpenguin for example. [...]
> Example: I just recently set up an old AMD Sempron with 2GB DDR
> RAM, 80GB HD and a GeForce 5700 card. Works perfectly with Trisquel
> 6.0 out off the box. Obboard soundcard works as well as the NIC.
Considering 90% of your reply was information you never need if you
buy pre-installed from ThinkPenguin, you're actually making the point
about why it's worth paying that premium.
You, sir, got lucky with that "old AMD ...". Some people are happy to
pay more to get there faster.
F.
- --
Fabián Rodríguez
http://fsf.magicfab.ca
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Fabian,
seems you did not get my point as much as I do not get your point !
As I indicated there is no "best" way as much as there is no "best" car for everyone. A millionaire happily pays 1 mio$ for his Ferrari while the "cheap guys" who live on a budget buy this 20 year old VW golf.
I did not get lucky with that old AMD but wanted to point out that older, slower systems are a perfect solution for people on a budget. Chris from Thinkpenguin sells pre-configured systems which (hopefully) run Trisquel for the most average user but this comes at a steep price point. I do not devalue his systems but wanted to point out that there are cheaper alternatives for those who live on a budget (if you consider the points I have mentioned).
If you are wealthy and have enough money to spent, then feel free to go that route.
As usual knowledge / skill can be replaced by money.
YMMV....
Take care,
H.
Maybe "best" wasn't a good word choice for fixing one's hardware issues and supporting Trisquel.
If one doesn't want to deal with hardware issues, which include finding and installing the drivers for their system to run Trisquel, or selecting the proper hardware on which to run Trisquel, one should donate to the cause and buy a computer from a vendor that supports the cause too. The chances are quite high that if hardware doesn't "just work" in Trisquel, then it requires a driver not FSF accepted, and that that "old box from 2005" which one desires to use Trisquel on has components that don't have GPL compatible drivers.
Also, by buying computers from Think Penguin, also donates to Trisquel.
Thanks for replying ! May be comfortable would be a better word than best.
I agree with most of the point highlighted here in the thread / mailings. I have quite some knowledge on selecting hardware for Linux and have used Trisquel on a wide variety of systems. As a result of this I have quite some good idea what will most likely work and what will not.
Chris / Think Penguin gratefully provides system which run Trisquel right out off the box. This careful selection of course comes at higher costs for the customers. One need also to understand that GNU Linux is often the OS of choice for peoples in countries with a general low income or a low income for the one aiming to run a PC. Even in Europe we have countries with severe economical crysis.
What do you think what people will buy there to run GNU Linux (if Trisquel at all) ? A PC from a specific company for a steep price point, a cheap PC from a local electronic reseller or an older used PC from ebay / gifted by some friend ?
You can take my words: If you are not limited to a notebook and consider the points I mentioned above, you will be able to run Trisquel on such a system without issues in at least 95%.
I also do not believe in the stuff that Fabian wrote, that people never need to know such things I mentioned if they buy a pre-installed Trisquel system. Folks, learning about how operating system, hardware and programs work is most likely the driving force behind the whole GNU movement beside the general freedom of users.
I feel sad for those who never try to learn about a system works but simply use it.
Take care,
H.
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1. Random hardware isn't cheaper; it just seems cheaper or is cheaper but of lower quality. Even used hardware isn't cheaper because then you run into issues with defects. It'll cost more in labor to test a 1000 random parts (with no guarantee they will continue working or work properly) than testing 1 part thoroughly and manufacturer it 1000 times. The solution to the problem is to get as many people to purchase free software friendly hardware as possible. Preferably from a single source even if there are multiple entities selling.
2. Pricing will come down although you can't do that until you can scale operations. This is a merely a matter of a few thousand people purchasing any given part or configuration in many cases. But we need to do that across ThinkPenguin's entire product line up.
3. h-node doesn't work. Not the way it is being used. In 2005 I realized that and while I wasn't in a position to do anything about it I did in 2008. h-node is useful to a very small set of the population. Recommending it to others is not a smart move. It just creates barriers to entry for new and less technically minded users.
4. That said Trisquel doesn't work either for most people right now. While I'd encourage people to use it with that in mind you need to be very careful not to throw it on someones computer who is in need of certain applications that won't work. The reason for this caution is because those who have trouble with it today will NEVER buy into it tomorrow. If your going to sell it (I mean this figuratively)- make sure your they will not fail. You do not want to turn them off of GNU/Linux or free software at a future date.
5. I'm less concerned about people using non-free software than at least being aware of the issues. You can help someone reduce there dependency on non-free software without putting them on Trisquel and they won't disappear. Hopefully we can push things forward and get them to a point where they won't use non-free software even if they are not on a totally free distribution (yet).
6. Just build up the demand and ensure people are not buying new hardware or used hardware that is not free software friendly.
a. Stick to hp printers; not all hp printers are free although a large number of them are. if you are in the united states we have some models which are free: libre.thinkpenguin.com
b. Stick to atheros mini pcie / pci for laptops; stick to realtek rtl8187, rtl8187l, rtl8187b, atheros ar9170, and atheros ar9271 chipsets for the USB wifi adapters.
c. Stick to intel for the graphics. Avoid AMD and nvidia. This is not a clear cut answer though because intel doesn't support coreboot (free BIOS project) but then AMD doesn't support ATI graphics. NVIDIA doesn't support the nouveau free driver project. However you'll have a free OS friendly system with Intel graphics which is why I'd probably lean that way for the moment.
d. There are some other components on laptops like bluetooth which you want to avoid. The only mini pcie solutions that exist have free software wifi have non-free software dependent bluetooth chipsets. Atheros/atheros combo cards might work somebody although I can't recommend them yet. I'd like to get Atheros to release the firmware source code for ar3011/ar3012 chipset as this would fix the problem and Atheros has been doing good in this department.
e. Avoid HP, Lenovo/IBM, Toshiba, and Dell laptops. There are restrictions in the BIOS for the mini pcie card slots. These prevent you from installing a free software friendly wifi card.
There is also http://gainframe.com that sells OpenBSD Thinkpads.
OpenBSD supports my Radeon 6470M & 6520G dual graphics but Trisquel doesn't. In fact no pure open source Linux fully supports my graphics hardware, only OpenBSD does in terms of a pure open source OS that has no binary blobs. I think we agree that vanilla Linux is not pure open source.
blobs in Linux = non-free firmware
blobs in *BSD = non-free driver
The problem with Randeon is non-free firmware. The driver is free but require the proprietary firmware.
BSD is not free. http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html#BSD
Which lines in the OpenBSD source code is not fully open source? Where in CVS or make files does OpenBSD point to something that is not fully open sourced?
Have you installed and compiled OpenBSD to verify your own statement? Or you going off another website that has an agenda and automatically assuming it is 100% accurate without investigating it yourself about the source code to test if what the site says is really true or if it is pure propaganda?
What I am saying is provide some first hand direct knowledge to back up what you say and don't simply quote what someone else said and naively assume there is no deceptive statements made by said quoted source.
> Which lines in the OpenBSD source code is not fully open source? Where
> in CVS or make files does OpenBSD point to something that is not fully
> open sourced?
See
e.g. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/atmel/atmel_at76c503_i3863_fw.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text/plain
and other files in subdirectories of microcode. (There were some with
funny licenses or files with no known license, I don't remember which
ones.)
The ports tree also recommends nonfree software, it's very easy to find
such.
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Nobody is questioning this who knows anything. The BSD side argues a different definition of what free is. The same applies to "open source" advocates.
You will see the word used in different ways. So what people mean here is that it doesn't equate to what this community considers free software. It has nothing to do with propaganda. The BSD folks, "open source" folks, and the free software folks all agree that they each have a different definition of the word.
So the free software folks would agree that based on BSD code is free based on the BSD definition of the word. But they would not agree it is free based on the free software definition of the word.
m971668
Why buy a computer?
Why don't you build one?
The Intel motherboards are the best and friendly for any kind of Linux distribution including, any of the free GNU/LINUX sponsor by FSF in my opinion. Buy a good processor with 3gb or 6 gB for the High definition GRAPHICS. For example I3-I5 intel processor are great for home use.
Start small, Build your own!
branded PC is just an over price object.
At least when you build one, you will know what is inside and what is capable of..
Dude just learn to download and to burn those linux ISO.
Dude, I did not know anything about linux installation until I started to read and experiment heavily with 4 old pentium 4 pc that I own....
Once you domain the basics then you could start upgrading with pretty solid hardware that Christ(Penguin) sells on his web site....I upgraded 3 of my P4 with hardware from Penguin store. specially on the WiFi area and graphic cards areas.
"Why don't you build one?"
Exactly! It was far cheaper for me to order parts and pay someone else to build it, than it was to buy one outright. Additionally, I was able to research all of the hardware to insure it all worked with free drivers. If you research, then order your parts, you can have a computer built to your exact specifications.
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It's not that simple. Intel is not a perfect free software supporter either. Neither is AMD. NVIDIA is probably the entity that is clearly the most hostile at the moment.
NVIDIA: We won't support free software in any way.
AMD: We will support free software where it benefits us.
Intel: We wills support free software where it benefits.
AMD supports the coreboot project which is developing a free software replacement BIOS. AMD has a higher end graphics chipset and would not want to reveal "secrets" to Intel and/or possible for reasons of digital restrictions management. I hear this isn't quite the truth although what it points to (regardless of the exact reason) is that it is believed to be a business advantage to keep code secret.
Intel: Intel doesn't have anything to reveal. Its only going to benefit by the release of code for its graphics chipsets. In fact doing so is in Intel's business interests because it means more developers can optimize code for its lower performance chipsets. It might be catching up although it still doesn't have any secrets to reveal that its main competitors don't already know.
m971668
Dude I build 3 pc 64bit systems, already using 1-5 17 Intel processors and mother boards. Today I donate two of my old p4 to my wife’s cousins all are using Trisquel, What is wrong with you buying whole PC? Where I live people can't afford a new PC, they are poor and a dollar spend wrongly could be starvation! I choose to be free as a speech and I’m doing my fair share in teaching others about libre software in the best of my abilities.........dude I have seen the eyes of happiness when they received a pc as a gift, since they never had one, specially when is free software...and not that expensive crap of Broken windows made by micro-soft(dung),GNU/LINUX is top modern software and modern technology.
If you're poor, you really shouldn't be concerning yourself with getting the best performance except where necessary by your work. For most people, 3D acceleration is a luxury, not a necessity, for example, so you can live with a Radeon card. Similarly, WiFi being unavailable might be acceptable. These are things you should consider if you're poor; what you shouldn't do, though, is sacrifice freedom for extras.
So yes, if you're poor, you should probably build your own low-end PC, not buy from Think Penguin.
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I completely agree.
I would be careful though because it can easily become more expensive to deal in used/random/cheapest/lowest bid situations than to buy new parts that are sure to work. Particularly in Europe/United States even for the poorest. Asia/Africa/South America on the other hand tend to have much poorer populations where this isn't going to be true.
Most peoples time (at least in Europe/United States/Australia/Canada) is more valuable than they realize. For instance you could likely save $22 on a $44 part. Markups do differ although small parts may have a 50% markup at retail in many cases. However if you have to wait a month or more for delivery, spend time figuring out the right part, spend time returning it because there was an error in the description/you made a mistake/the database you used was in error/or you didn't understand that a model number is not a chipset, etc it isn't the financially sensible thing to do. You would be better off if you had just bought it at the more expensive place to begin with.
There is a reason I'm not very price conscious. Despite the seemingly huge savings it generally isn't worth my time. At the same time I seem to waste enough of it posting on forums :) but hopefully someones getting something out of it somewhere.
We frequently see people spending $100 to get a $40 part ASAP. There is a reason for this. Time is money.
Today all the computers has 3D acceleration (after 2007). If you bought one computer before is another thing. But today the "poor" people you spoke use Windows 7 Ultimate with Aero.
Remember, the poor people had their first computer recently. The most of them uses hardware better than mine. And buy one new each two years. Because the technicians say "your computer is old, buy one new for install Windows 8" ;-)
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That's great! Keep up the good work.
It isn't an all or nothing situation. If people's only choice is no PC or used hardware and the time you have can't be better spent this makes a lot of sense.
The problem is really when you start to look at doing things on a larger scale. The resources to support the hardware become insurmountable. You need to focus on a particular chipset/component in order to do it cost effectively/efficiently. Labor is worth more generally (in much of the world if not everywhere) than the money saved by refurbishing hardware. Refurbished hardware is extremely expensive labor wise.
If your time is worthless (not to offend anyone) then used hardware is probably always cheaper than new hardware. Generally speaking though on a mass scale this isn't going to be true.
The best way to donate your time is not to used hardware unless this is the only option. It's to new hardware. You can support much more variety of hardware and get it to many more people by focusing your efforts on a single component than trying to support a dozen components.
Chris,
your points are perfectly valid from the perspective of one who needs to bring a consistent platform to peoples which is easy to maintain / support.
I was solely speaking for individuals and not for companies. I just would like that people stop telling that setting up a standard system for Trisquel is overly complicated. Even if you are not poor, for you as an individual it is much cheaper (also in terms of money per time) to set up your own system if you are skilled enough. It's not really rocket sience to avoid the point I mentioned (no AMD GPU, NVidia GPU or Intel, etc). Even for WLAN there are options like using your onboard NIC plus a WLAN bridge. If you remember the benchmark values I posted some month ago, you could see that an old AMD dualcore (2x2.7GHz) plus a GeForce 9800GT could easily compete with an Intel system with the top notch I7 which was a lot more expensive at this time.
Even the crappy AMD Sempron I mentioned (1.7 GHz Single Core / 2GB DDR RAM / 80 GB HDD / S3 Unichrome Onboard graphic) is fast enough for the most daily things: Watching 720p videos downloade from Youtube with Viewtube, writing e-mail, etc.
I got this system as gift from a colleague. Installing Trisquel 6.0 took something like 45 minutes with a few mouse clicks.
So please, tell me....what would be the benefit to shell out something like 400-500€ to buy a new system instead of simply using an old box ?
Best regards,
Holger
The point Chris is trying to make is it's much better for most people to simply get a package deal. With freedom included. So better for the buyer.
Also, it makes a lot of sense to support a vendor who supports free software in general. And Trisquel in particular. So better for the all of us.
Having said that, nobody is saying it's the only way though.
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First of all I can tell you it is a lot harder than you seem to think even for a skilled user. The part numbers don't match the chipsets. You'd know this if you have worked with thousands of different parts. We run into this issue constantly. Many people don't run into this issue though right away. They have this idea everything "just works" because they haven't really played with everything.
But yea- it's not impossible to put together a system that works pretty well for a skilled user. It just takes a bit of work + a little know how. I would not disagree with that general assessment. Most skilled users though aren't going to want to mess around finding the right part. Skilled persons generally make good money. They want it to work the first time and even when you have all the known good parts things still fail frequently enough for it to be an annoyance for most people.
Recycling is great. Lets recycle freedom friendly systems though which we know work. Recycling used MS Windows systems that don't work though isn't working terribly well. There are also other issues with older systems/parts. Now you might be fine depending on the source of the parts. Old parts that have never been used and are still sealed might be fine. However the older parts in most cases tend to have issues. There "refurbished" parts or from systems people threw away because they had problems with them. They might work some of the time for instance-but that just wastes more time (of which I generally put a value on even for people making near minimum wage- in the USA anyway). These inconsistencies can cause huge amounts of time to be wasted. It's bad enough with the defect rates of new parts where 90% of people are at least satisfied with them.
Plus- the costs would drop if more people bought free software friendly hardware (where they can- this isn't easily the case for people in places like Africa, Asia, South America).
Honestly it probably won't matter. What is likely to reduce the costs are large corporate sales. But don't be mistaken that every sale doesn't move things one step closer.
Just to give people a general idea of why we should care more. Some projections of sales to the GNU/Linux community for USB wifi adapters: 500,000 / year. If even a small fraction of those sales were to one company that would be millions of dollars a year. That is money you can do something with. The Free Software Foundation is running off a mere $300,000. The problem is people are buying from companies who don't have any stake in it. The hardware works merely by chance. Not because companies are spending money to make it work. That might be good enough for tech savvy users although it is still in ones disadvantage to underfund development. What you get from that is people working only on 'interesting' projects. You get fewer bug fixes, etc.
While it's nice for Mark Shuttleworth to donate millions to GNU/Linux development he isn't going to do it forever. It'll probably fail if history has anything to tell us. The answer to the problem is creating new business models to fund it. Not regurgitating failed ones.
ThinkPenguin is already a success. It's not making a huge difference in the scheme of things even if it is an enormous improvement over what we had 5 years ago. I hope we can change that. It's not one person who can do that though. It takes a community. I give a lot of credit to those people within organizations/companies pushing things forward, volunteers, financial contributors, users, and others.
Now I need to stop repeating myself on a forum where there are people who are summarizing my statements constantly and /or start writing shorter posts. I do have actual work to do. Really. But I think you guys all know that given the number of suggestions I get on a daily basis.
Thank you Chris for all your words and also having the Think Penguin company. Your efforts are appreciated. I will make another donation this month.
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