Investing with Free Software

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GNUser
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se unió: 07/17/2013

Hey all!

I have been wondering, does anyone here invest, while using Free Software?
By this I mean, how do you buy/sell stocks, or invest in Bitcoin, or do Forex Trading, while running only Free Software?

I see a lot of apps (proprietary) and some websites that requires loads of JS.

Thanks for any advice.

nadebula.1984
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/01/2018

Only bourgeoisie make investments, so I don't care much about their freedom. In fact, they have more power than freedom, compensating them for the unjustness imposed on them by non-free software.

calher

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/19/2015

On 1.6.2020 21:13, name at domain wrote:
> Only bourgeoisie make investments, so I don't care much about their
> freedom. In fact, they have more power than freedom, compensating them
> for the unjustness imposed on them by non-free software.

Excuse me? Everyone should aim to save SOME money, and invest SOME
money, and donate SOME money to charity.

Even the poor should give SOMETHING to charity.

--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

chaosmonk

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Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/07/2017

> Excuse me? Everyone should aim to save SOME money, and invest SOME
> money, and donate SOME money to charity.

Can you explain why you brought up charity? It seems off topic.

calher

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se unió: 06/19/2015

On 10.6.2020 2:56, name at domain wrote:
>> Excuse me? Everyone should aim to save SOME money, and invest SOME
>> money, and donate SOME money to charity.
>
> Can you explain why you brought up charity?  It seems off topic.

Saving money is to contribute to the betterment of your own wellbeing.
Giving, investing and charity, contribute to the betterment of society.

--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

> Saving money is to contribute to the betterment of your own wellbeing.

This seems off topic too. No one has mentioned saving money.

> Giving, investing and charity, contribute to the betterment of society.

No one here has questioned whether giving and charity contribute to the betterment of society.

This thread is about investing, specifically to "buy/sell stocks, or invest in Bitcoin, or do Forex Trading". These are ways to leverage the power of one's existing wealth in order to enrich oneself further without having to work. Forex trading does not better society. Investing in Bitcoin does not either, and Bitcoin is bad for the environment. It *might* be possible to buy/sell stocks in a way that avoids funding activities that harm society, but people who invest with the goal of maximizing gains will not invest in such a way.

"Charity" and "giving" are words with generally positive connotations, for reasons that don't apply to the types of "investment" we are discussing. As boba points out, there is another sense of the word "invest" in which the return that the investor expects is not wealth, but something like "local community building". This is more similar to charity, but it is explicitly not what GNUser asked about or what nadebula.1984 was responding to.

calher

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se unió: 06/19/2015

The only issue I had with this thread was the political guy asserting
that all contributions to the economy are bad.

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

Sorry. I've been in a bad place lately and today realized that I've been acting it out by picking fights with people over random things I don't really want to argue about. I'm trying to stop now. Never mind.

Masaru Suzuqi -under review-
Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/06/2018

> and Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

Why? How?

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

Bitcoins are created by using/wasting energy.

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017
Masaru Suzuqi -under review-
Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/06/2018

I see.

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

I am not sure that would be entirely true... By this I mean, yes Bitcoin consumes energy, but if we take in consideration all the energy required to run Banks, making coins and all the various physical money representations, etc... I don't believe Bitcoin is such a danger for the environment.

Masaru Suzuqi -under review-
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se unió: 06/06/2018

I see. That might sound a reasonable opinion. Though that seems off-topic.

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

Bitcoin doesn't just consume some energy like ordinary computing. It inherently wastes massive amounts of energy by design. If it did not take much energy to mine Bitcoin, anyone with a computer could easily mine their own Bitcoin, so no one would need to buy Bitcoin from anyone else, so it would be worth nothing. The amount of energy Bitcoin wastes makes it very expensive to mine, which is what gives it scarcity and therefore value. Banks and minting machines are not subject to this dynamic.

Masaru Suzuqi -under review-
Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/06/2018

I see. Sounds reasonable.

Beko
Desconectado/a
se unió: 08/31/2019

Whilst I also agree that wasting energy is inherently bad, you might also want to consider electricity sources like natural gas which are hard to store. Natural gas needs to be used at the same rate at which it's produced, a lot is just burned because there is literally too much gas. A country with (more +/ cheaper) energy can produce more bitcoin at lower cost.

Again, not advocating for bitcoins massive use of energy, but increased energy usage in the world is not ALWAYS bad..
Electricity is crazy cheap in the U.S because of natural gas, everywhere except NY and CA. The thing is.. the companies going for shale, end up with the natural gas as a byproduct, its burned and released to open air where no energy is harvested sometimes.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/report/electricity.php

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

I just came across this page[1] with some calculations and comparisons. One interesting comparison: The amount of electrical energy used by a single Bitcoin transaction is "equivalent to the power consumption of an average U.S. household over 17.76 days."

[1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

Investing makes a person "bourgeoisie"? And the fact that a person invest, denies his right for freedom when using software?

I don't follow... But anyway. Thank you.

zigote
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/04/2019

The original meaning of bourgeoisie is one who lives in a town. Also every time you put your money in a bank you are contributing to investments - because the bank uses your money for investing into various things (BTW banks use non-free software, so with your money they pay proprietors too).

Based on your comment:

Even if I am a retired villager and the government pays my monthly retirement by transferring money to my bank account - I don't deserve freedom because I should not be compensated for "the unjustness" I am part of.

:)

chaosmonk

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se unió: 07/07/2017

> The original meaning of bourgeoisie is one who lives in a town

But that's not how the word has been used in this discussion, so this is irrelevant trivia.

> Also every time you put your money in a bank you are contributing to investments

This is also not what we are discussing. GNUser specified from the beginning: "By this I mean, how do you buy/sell stocks, or invest in Bitcoin, or do Forex Trading, while running only Free Software?", and nadebula.1984 responded in those terms, with a comment not about people who passively "contribute to investments" but who actively "make investments".

> Based on your comment

Your facetious conclusion was not based on nadebula.1984's comment. It was based on an imaginary comment that they did not make, one which uses "bourgeoisie" in a different sense and replaces "make investments" with "contribute to investments". I don't really want to debate whether nadebula.1984's comment was right or wrong, but using wordplay to create an strawman, and then from that strawman drawing an absurd conclusion, does not show that nadebula.1984's original comment was absurd.

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

Does anyone has any useful reply to the original post?
I would love to get some feedback. Thank you very much.

FindEssential
Desconectado/a
se unió: 08/23/2017

Hi there,

Firstly, sorry your responses have been less than helpful. This is pretty normative in the "general" section, its sort of a troll lounge lite. Since you are asking about specific apps, while using free systems, I see no reason why such questions couldn't be in the main users sub.

The issue with a lot of stock trading software is that most casual investment platforms are now web based and heavily dependent on problematic javascript. That said, the FSF maintains an expansive list of freedom respecting applications of all types and there is a section for stocks : https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Category/Business/stock-market

Like most folks here in the States my primary source of investment is through my retirement account, which unfortunately requires using one of the aforementioned websites with no option to use a freedom respecting front-end. Most of the apps available allow you to track the trades you wish to make, the bottleneck happens with actually making tradings. I don't know of any brokers that use free software to receive trade requests and to then process those requests. The only possible platform I know that has been at least "open sourced" is actually many of the tools Goldman Sachs uses, but I haven't taken a deep dive into the specifics. Their Github is here: https://github.com/goldmansachs

With Bitcoin are you looking to speculate or simply have an avenue to obtain them? I strongly discourage people from speculating because the payout at this point isn't the kind of return that would warrant the risk, unless you have the capital to be a significant player. Bitcoin is great as an alternative currency though. To obtain it I generally encourage low fee and in person options such as a Bitcoin party or an atm.

calher

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/19/2015

On 10.6.2020 9:02, name at domain wrote:
> The issue with a lot of stock trading software is that most casual
> investment platforms are now web based and heavily dependent on
> problematic javascript.

Would WeB Outside Of Brousers have a stocks trading program? It has a
program for so many other web-based things.

V The only possible platform
> I know that has been at least "open sourced" is actually many of the
> tools Goldman Sachs uses, but I haven't taken a deep dive into the
> specifics. Their Github is here: https://github.com/goldmansachs

Interesting. I'm saving this email for reference.

--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

Masaru Suzuqi -under review-
Desconectado/a
se unió: 06/06/2018

Is there an investor entrusting asset management to investment banks such as Goldman Sachs or an actual field trader who have policy or philosophy and deep knowledge of e.g. green energy that they never invest in e.g. oil futures, but only in e.g. green energy business related in developing countries? or such as a very low cost household use wind power generator? Just wondered.

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

Thanks for the helpful reply (maybe the only one pertaining to the post itself).
I have been on-and-off interested in investing, but it's not something I am still sure about. Even so, if I went for Bitcoin it would be for speculation yes. But I understand the risks, which is why I am still unsure what I will do.

Thank you so much for sharing your valuable input.

Malsasa
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/01/2016

Hello GNUser, I do not have experience in browsing the internet for money investments or stocks or tradings, I am sorry. However, as far as I remember, web page of a bank I know will not work with LibreJS enabled so user cannot check their money savings unless they use JavaScript-enabled browser or disable LibreJS.

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

Yes, that's true, doing banking through the Internet seems to always require proprietary code. I think they truly believe that "security by obscurity" is the only way.

Beko
Desconectado/a
se unió: 08/31/2019

https://sourceforge.net/projects/ast/

http://user42.tuxfamily.org/chart/index.html

Found these by searching "stocks" on FSF main page, hope it is of some help.

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

Thanks! Those look promising and while I cannot test them at the moment, I hope others will benefit from your post. Thanks.