Most people hate free software
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I am a member!
How does one live free in a nonfree world?
Most people hate free software-only, and it is very difficult to make
friends once they find out you don't do things because of some
philosophical reason.
I don't have any friends to see face to face. I constantly feel like
an outcast because everyone is on Facebook Messenger and I am not, and
people always treat me like a gnuisance because of it.
My job doesn't pay enough for me to support myself, so I'm dependent
on others to live. I thought if I had a job and could support myself,
maybe I'd feel less depressed about having no friends.
I try so hard to not judge others, and to compartmentalize all my
practices so they don't affect others, but it never works. They
always find out, and they always reject me because I won't watch
Netflix or play a game or use a chat app.
I feel completely powerless and worthless. The digital divide between
the free world and the proprietary world is too great. Technology is
too interwoven into meatspace to be avoided.
I need to belong somewhere. My loneliness and depression are too great.
No income. No friends. No place to belong. No life. No happiness.
I desperately want to give up on everything, and use Discord, but
doing that to myself would make me feel completely void.
I don't know what to do. I don't know how to have a life. I'm scared.
Any association you could join? Maybe a free software user group?
Are you trying to make friends over the Internet? That never works.
I make friends in two ways:
* Talking with my coworkers.
* Going to activity groups, where people do something that I am interested in. Like a board game playing group I go to every month.
If you're saying that you're such an insufferably annoying person that no one wants to be around you in real life, you need to change that. No one wants to be told over and over again that their phone is evil, that Windows is bad, and that iOS is a jail. You don't need to keep your politics a secret, but politics usually should not be discussed with people who disagree with them if they are people you want to befriend. This applies to all political positions, not just libre software. If you go on about how capitalism is evil and Trump is the worst thing since Smallpox on and on, your conservative friends will get annoyed and eventually stop talking to you. It's just life.
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> * Talking with my coworkers.
When I'm having a bad time because there's no food around, or I'm
struggling to avoid using the computers, nobody understands me.
> * Going to activity groups, where people do something that I am
interested
> in. Like a board game playing group I go to every month.
I want to do this, but it's hard to do because we live far away and
don't have much gas money to spare.
> If you're saying that you're such an insufferably annoying person
that no one
> wants to be around you in real life, you need to change that.
> No one wants to
> be told over and over again that their phone is evil, that Windows
is bad,
> and that iOS is a jail.
I do not do this. I only bring it up when it's necessary, like
someone asks to do something with me that involves technology. I say,
"I don't do that. Could we please do X instead?"
> When I'm having a bad time because there's no food around, or I'm
> struggling to avoid using the computers, nobody understands me.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
> I want to do this, but it's hard to do because we live far away and
> don't have much gas money to spare.
I don't even own a car. I ride a bike everywhere. Perhaps you should consider investing in a bike as well, even if you don't use it for every excursion. It can save you quite a lot of money. :)
> I only bring it up when it's necessary, like
> someone asks to do something with me that involves technology. I say,
> "I don't do that. Could we please do X instead?"
This sounds like you pushing your personal preferences. It's inflexible and uncooperative. You need to learn to give in to what others want, not insist on only what you want. Moreover, don't concern yourself with what others are doing with their computers. That's their own choice. If they want to watch a movie on Netflix, join them! When going to the gaming group I mentioned, one of the games a friend likes to play is a proprietary, DRM-encumbered game on his tablet. I've pointed out how absurd the DRM system is (it limits the number of players to a smaller number unless you connect to the Internet), but I don't tell them that I refuse to play. I play with them and have a good time. You have to choose your battles.
If the only things they like to do would require you to run proprietary software on your computer, then obviously that won't work. But most people engage in activities that aren't proprietary online multiplayer games.
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name at domain wrote ..
> > When I'm having a bad time because there's no food around, or I'm
> > struggling to avoid using the computers, nobody understands me.
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
Often times, avoiding proprietary software comes to a point of
avoiding computers altogether for that task.
When I bring this up, people don't understand, and they get irritated
because I'm inconveniencing them.
When I said "because there's no food," I mean that there are a few
restaurants that just have zero vegan options, not even a plain potato
with a salad. Not even French fries an a salad.
> > I want to do this, but it's hard to do because we live far away and
> > don't have much gas money to spare.
>
> I don't even own a car. I ride a bike everywhere. Perhaps you should
consider
> investing in a bike as well, even if you don't use it for every
excursion. It
> can save you quite a lot of money. :)
You don't know how far away everything is. Biking it would be very
difficult. There isn't even a gas station or grocery store in my
town. All East Lynne, MO has is a bar, a post office, a city hall, a
school, and a church.
A huge amount of farm land separates me from basic services like a
hospital, the grocery store, or a gas station.
> > I only bring it up when it's necessary, like
> > someone asks to do something with me that involves technology. I say,
> > "I don't do that. Could we please do X instead?"
>
> This sounds like you pushing your personal preferences. It's
inflexible and
> uncooperative. You need to learn to give in to what others want, not
insist
> on only what you want.
I do make compromises! If someone wants to do something I don't want
to do, but I can make it work without using computers or proprietary
software, then I'll do it.
When someone asks me to use Netflix, I tell them I'd be glad to watch
the thing they want to watch, no matter how uninterested I am. I
insist on finding a torrent for them and downloading it first, though.
I've also done lots of research to figure out how to stream anime
without DRM or proprietary software.
And I torrent several things in advance so they don't have to wait on
a torrent download. It's just right there, ready to watch.
Moreover, don't concern yourself with what others are
> doing with their computers. That's their own choice.
Yes, I know. I do not concern myself with which OS or browser they
use, or which games they play, or which chat programs they use.
That's their business, and I don't tell them what to do.
However, if they want to do something with me using computers, their
programs will have to support standard protocols that I can
interoperate with. Google's instant messenger used to do this.
> If they want to watch a movie on Netflix, join them!
If someone wants to watch a movie with me and play it using their
proprietary video player, I will gladly do so without any hesitation.
However, DRM streaming is way more serious than that. When you watch
Netflix, you are not just forfeiting your own rights. You're directly
contributing to the market pressure that will make Fair Use a thing of
the past.
If everything starts to become a Netflix Original, sound bites and
movie clips will cease to exist.
> When going to the gaming group I mentioned, one
> of the games a friend likes to play is a proprietary, DRM-encumbered
game on
> his tablet. I've pointed out how absurd the DRM system is (it limits
the
> number of players to a smaller number unless you connect to the
Internet),
> but I don't tell them that I refuse to play. I play with them and
have a good
> time. You have to choose your battles.
I do not bother people with a large, complicated philosophy that takes
lots of study to understand. I do my best to nonchalently avoid the
issue without saying a thing. The most I say on the issue is that I
don't do things "for very important personal reasons."
If they already know I use GNU/Linux and free software, though, they
sort of catch on and start saying "ohh, you won't use it because it's
not OPEN SOURCE, waaaa".
> If the only things they like to do would require you to run
proprietary
> software on your computer, then obviously that won't work. But most
people
> engage in activities that aren't proprietary online multiplayer games.
Yeah.
With those people, I'm able to casually make computers irrelevant to
the activity by choosing whichever activity presented to me (by them!)
that involves computers the least.
Often times, avoiding proprietary software comes to a point of avoiding computers altogether for that task.
Are you talking about avoiding proprietary software on your own computers or on computers you do not administrate? The latter case does not make you more/less free. Only the owner of the computer is harmed by the proprietary programs she runs. It is sad for her but not your business (well, if you care about that person, you can explain how proprietary software harms her). Even RMS accepts to use Windows on computers he does not administrate, as long as that does not involve using proprietary protocols that would force the interlocutor to use proprietary software (typically Skype).
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name at domain wrote ..
> Often times, avoiding proprietary software comes to a point of
avoiding
> computers altogether for that task.
>
> Are you talking about avoiding proprietary software on your own
computers or
> on computers you do not administrate?
I'm mostly concerned only about what's running on my own computer.
For other people's computers, I'm only concerned about things that
would affect me, like using one of their game programs to do an
activity with people over the internet. I also avoid Netflix because
I don't want the whole world to be forced to watch movies only thru DRM.
"well, if you care about that person, you can explain how proprietary software harms her"
This seems like a perfectly reasonably thing to do, right? Even a caring thing to do. But as with pointing to consumers of liquor and tobacco that the substance they are dependent on is harming them and is best avoided, people who are dependent on proprietary software will often get angry when someone points out that it is harming them and is best avoided. This is often the case even when communicated in a respectful and non-pushy way. It's difficult to be a conscientious person in a world where most people blindly follow the herd at their own expense, and get incredibly defensive when examples of this are pointed out to them in any way (even by other people's choices not to follow the herd).
Calher, you are obviously a really conscientious person, and it sucks that you feel that this makes your life more difficult. I encourage you to focus on the many ways it also makes you life better.
> When I said "because there's no food," I mean that there are a few
> restaurants that just have zero vegan options, not even a plain potato
> with a salad. Not even French fries an a salad.
Why are you a vegan? Veganism can cause all kinds of problems, including depression, if you don't do it right. Especially make sure you're getting enough fat in your diet.
Veganism is also very expensive to get right. If you're short on cash, that's going to make it especially difficult.
> When I bring this up, people don't understand, and they get irritated
> because I'm inconveniencing them.
So, you tell them that you refuse to use a computer? In what context?
> You don't know how far away everything is.
The furthest I bike is around 16 miles (estimation based on 2 hours * 8 mph, the speed I usually go at). Maybe you can't get to your job that way, but you should be able to find group activities in that sort of radius. You can't just allow yourself to be isolated because you don't have the gas money for it. Social interaction is very important.
> I insist on finding a torrent for them and downloading it first, though.
NO. Wrong.
What they have on their computer is their business. If someone offers to watch a movie with you, unless they're asking you to provide the movie, shut up about how you're going about doing it. This is not an appropriate context to inject your politics. Just watch the movie with them. You can't refuse to have a good time with people because of mistakes they are making on their own computers.
> However, if they want to do something with me using computers, their
> programs will have to support standard protocols that I can
> interoperate with. Google's instant messenger used to do this.
This is valid ONLY if it involves YOUR computer. By all means, tell them you can't use WhatsApp and suggest Kontalk instead. Don't tell them why; just tell them you can't use WhatsApp. But if your computer is not involved in any way, it's none of your business and it's inappropriate to inject your politics into it.
> However, DRM streaming is way more serious than that.
It doesn't matter. It's their computer, so it's none of your business.
> When you watch Netflix, you are not just forfeiting your own rights. You're directly
> contributing to the market pressure that will make Fair Use a thing of
> the past.
Watching a movie that happens to be streaming through Netflix does nothing. The activity that contributes to market pressure is your friend sending money to Netflix. That's unfortunate, but it's still none of your business and inappropriate to inject your politics into it.
> If everything starts to become a Netflix Original, sound bites and
> movie clips will cease to exist.
Let me give an analogy: climate change. The issue of climate change has some people believing that driving cars is destroying the planet, and some people believing that it's all a hoax. Both of these groups are wrong, but consider the former group. How many friends do you think they would make if every time someone offered them a ride, they refused to do so and insisted on instead using their own electric car powered by solar panels? People who don't think that cars are such a massive deal would get annoyed pretty fast and eventually just stop inviting them to events.
> I do not bother people with a large, complicated philosophy that takes
> lots of study to understand.
That's not what I'm talking about. Politics don't have to be complicated to be inappropriate for the situation.
> The most I say on the issue is that I
> don't do things "for very important personal reasons."
Can you give an example, with context?
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> Why are you a vegan? Veganism can cause all kinds of problems,
including
> depression, if you don't do it right. Especially make sure you're
getting
> enough fat in your diet.
(1) This state/cycle of depression has existed long before I have been
vegan
(2) I'm definitely getting generous amounts of fat in my diet
> Veganism is also very expensive to get right.
No.
http://www.bitesizevegan.org/bite-size-vegan-nuggets/qa/vegan-on-a-budget-my-top-10-tips/
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-5/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cQq7nrCkqY
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/dieteticorgs
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/The-Plant-Based-Diet-booklet.pdf
https://nutritionstudies.org/plant-based-on-a-budget/
> > When I bring this up, people don't understand, and they get irritated
> > because I'm inconveniencing them.
>
> So, you tell them that you refuse to use a computer? In what context?
"Hey, let's all play a game. Cal, here's you're controller."
"No thanks, I'm good just watching."
"OK..."
* * *
"Hey, everybody else is gone. Wanna play now?"
"No, thanks. Find anything cool in the game?"
"Yeah, I got a star!"
"Oh, that's good."
"And look at what I can do!" [Demo.]
"Oh, wow. Those are some really nice effects, and I like how you can
do everything much quicker than in the old version."
"Wanna play now?"
"No, but I like watching."
"Then I don't wanna play either..."
"You didn't have to do that."
"No, it's not worth it if I don't have anybody to play with."
"Sorry..." ........ "Well, would you like to watch that series you
like?" [holds up flash drive with videos on it]
"OK, I guess..."
> > I insist on finding a torrent for them and downloading it first,
though.
>
> NO. Wrong.
>
> What they have on their computer is their business. If someone
offers to
> watch a movie with you, unless they're asking you to provide the
movie, shut
> up about how you're going about doing it. This is not an appropriate
context
> to inject your politics. Just watch the movie with them. You can't
refuse to
> have a good time with people because of mistakes they are making on
their own
> computers.
Yes. Very much so. I don't care which program they play the videos
with. That is their business and I do not comment on it at all.
But Netflix is an entirely different matter. There are huge network
effects, with even bigger consequences than Discord or Facebook Messenger.
But all this is a moot point, because the videos were being played on
MY computer. Even loading Netflix is MY responsibility.
> > However, if they want to do something with me using computers, their
> > programs will have to support standard protocols that I can
> > interoperate with. Google's instant messenger used to do this.
>
> This is valid ONLY if it involves YOUR computer.
Correct. At work, I use Outlook to send internal emails.
> But if your computer is not involved in any
> way, it's none of your business and it's inappropriate to inject your
> politics into it.
I've never been in a situation where I've used a communication program
on someone else's computer for my own communication. That's just weird.
> > However, DRM streaming is way more serious than that.
>
> It doesn't matter. It's their computer, so it's none of your business.
> Watching a movie that happens to be streaming through Netflix does
nothing.
> The activity that contributes to market pressure is your friend
sending money
> to Netflix. That's unfortunate, but it's still none of your business
and
> inappropriate to inject your politics into it.
By placating the demand for a movie with Netflix, you are not
practicing the demand for DRM-free movies, and the market will stop
bothering to provide them with that lack of demand. Watching Netflix
destroys the market supply of DRM-free movies.
> > If everything starts to become a Netflix Original, sound bites and
> > movie clips will cease to exist.
>
> Let me give an analogy: climate change. The issue of climate change
has some
> people believing that driving cars is destroying the planet, and
some people
> believing that it's all a hoax. Both of these groups are wrong, but
consider
> the former group. How many friends do you think they would make if
every time
> someone offered them a ride, they refused to do so and insisted on
instead
> using their own electric car powered by solar panels? People who
don't think
> that cars are such a massive deal would get annoyed pretty fast and
> eventually just stop inviting them to events.
This doesn't follow.
> > The most I say on the issue is that I
> > don't do things "for very important personal reasons."
>
> Can you give an example, with context?
Work sends a link to a web app to my personal email.
"Hey, I know you sent that link to my personal email, but could I do
it here?"
"Maybe, why?"
"Uh, my computer is really old and crashed when I tried visiting the
page."
"Oh, OK. I'll see what we can do."
> "Hey, let's all play a game. Cal, here's you're controller."
>
> "No thanks, I'm good just watching."
>
> "OK..."
This is anti-social and unreasonable. Take the controller and play with them. It's not your computer, i.e. not your responsibility.
> "Sorry..." ........ "Well, would you like to watch that series you
> like?" [holds up flash drive with videos on it]
>
> "OK, I guess..."
This is forcing your own preferences in. The message you're giving out is, "I refuse to do the things you like to do, but I want you to do the things I like to do." It's anti-social and uncooperative.
> But Netflix is an entirely different matter.
No, it isn't. It's still their computer, their money.
> But all this is a moot point, because the videos were being played on
> MY computer. Even loading Netflix is MY responsibility.
If it's your computer, by all means, don't use Netflix. It shouldn't work, anyway, because you don't have a browser with EME support, presumably. And you should have JavaScript disabled anyway.
> I've never been in a situation where I've used a communication program
> on someone else's computer for my own communication. That's just weird.
I couldn't tell from context if you were talking about messaging or Netflix. You seemed to be talking about Netflix.
As far as messaging goes, yes, by all means, tell your friends that you don't have Skype or WhatsApp. But if a proprietary communication tool is so essential to staying in touch with them, and I know RMS would disagree with me strongly on this, but I think you should just give in and use the program. Do so on a dedicated computer for these proprietary programs. You can explain to them that you do this because proprietary software is a threat to security, privacy, etc, and so you are keeping it away from your regular computing. They might think you're paranoid, but they won't get mad about this.
> By placating the demand for a movie with Netflix, you are not
> practicing the demand for DRM-free movies, and the market will stop
> bothering to provide them with that lack of demand. Watching Netflix
> destroys the market supply of DRM-free movies.
DRM-free movies are already long dead. They have been DRM-encumbered for decades; DVDs have DRM that is easily crackable, but it's still there.
Anyway, you're sacrificing your well-being for activism. Don't do that. We will be just fine if you duck out when it's time for social interaction. Put your own well-being first.
> Work sends a link to a web app to my personal email.
>
> "Hey, I know you sent that link to my personal email, but could I do
> it here?"
>
> "Maybe, why?"
>
> "Uh, my computer is really old and crashed when I tried visiting the
> page."
>
> "Oh, OK. I'll see what we can do."
I was hoping for an example from your social life, not from work.
If your employer is requiring you to run proprietary software, you should certainly try to do so on company computers (you should do so anyway, since you shouldn't work off-the-clock), but if you need to use proprietary software on your own computer to keep your job you should do so and promptly look for a different job. Employers are very different from friends.
I am a member!
> I was hoping for an example from your social life, not from work.
In my room, with only my computer and a cable set top box which I
never use that has Netflix.
"Can we watch X?"
"Sure! Lemme find a torrent! Crap, I can't find it. But I think I
see some other shows on here that you like. How about this one?"
"OK, that'll work."
I Wait for it to download. I press play.
"Aw man, it's a sub!"
"Crap. OK, let's look for a dub..."
25 minutes later.
"Shit, there's no dubs to be found. Are you alright watching the sub?"
"I guess... but the dub is right there on Netflix."
Several weeks later. Netflix pulls the show from rotation.
"I'm glad you downloaded it. It's not on Netflix anymore."
That actually sounds like a fine interaction to me. The comment about Netflix can be deflected because Netflix won't work on your browser. Or, you can ask them if they brought your computer, because you don't have Netflix.
One more thing:
"Veganism can cause all kinds of problems, including depression"
No, it can't. Despite the FUD recently circulated in the mass media, there's no evidence of a link between a vegan diet and depression, see:
http://www.theveganrd.com/2017/11/vegetarian-diets-and-depression/
Veganism does not cause depression, and it's not expensive. Yes, the various fake meats are expensive, but those are unnecessary. Stop spreading FUD.
>> When I said "because there's no food," I mean that there are a few
>> restaurants that just have zero vegan options, not even a plain potato
>> with a salad. Not even French fries an a salad.
> Why are you a vegan? Veganism can cause all kinds of problems, including depression, if you don't do it right. Especially make sure you're getting enough fat in your diet.
That question was rude in my opinion. Why are you a meat eater? Don't you find it rude? Yes, carnism can cause all kinds of problems too, I'm looking at you fast food industry.
> Veganism is also very expensive to get right. If you're short on cash, that's going to make it especially difficult.
Carnism is more expensive than veganism. Remember that animals feed on plants before being killed and served to you. Vegetables are inherently cheaper than animal products. I'm vegan and I eat very well without spending lots of money.
"Vegetables are inherently cheaper than animal products."
This should be true, but in many cases it's not, and that is because the meat industry is artificially propped up by the government. It really needs to end.
"Nobody understands me"
That's me 100%. I can relate to this in a lot of ways. You know what really grinds my gears? Having to use a Librebooted computer from 10 years ago to be free.
It isn't something for the masses, but we have to build a future in which the "newest thing" is something that is 100% free. I am alienated from most people for my political and philosophical beliefs. I cannot in good conscience accept the prevailing technological, political, and socioeconomic order of society without questioning it on a fundamental level. It's just who I am. If you come to unconventional conclusions about society, use those conclusions to change society for the better. Never submit.
As far as friends go, I'm the kind of person who prefers to be alone 90% of the time. I don't have any friends really, not good (as in close) friends anyways. Even those who know the most about me really don't know me. The Internet is a wonderful thing in this regard, I can communicate instantly with anyone on anything. We in the free software community are one of the biggest hurdles governments and private corporations face in their profit-motivated pursuit of eroding people's freedoms. Without us and our frustrating and annoying principles, what is there to stand in the way of 100% proprietary software?
One of the things I do to manage depression (besides medication) is going outside at least 15 minutes a day. It's not a lot, but I think it helps to clear my mind.
I am a member!
Thanks.
> If you come to unconventional conclusions about society, use those
> conclusions to change society for the better. Never submit.
I tried. I looked at what money I had after trying very hard to chip
away every luxury until I'm left with the bare costs of my existence
plus reserves for future medical bills, and I had none to spare. I
would have given all of it to fund development to make nice
smartphones, TVs and laptops that have good software in them that Just
Works.
> As far as friends go, I'm the kind of person who prefers to be alone
90% of
> the time.
I absolutely do not. If I could reprogram my feelings to feel the way
you do, I would do it immediately, but I cannot.
> The
> Internet is a wonderful thing in this regard, I can communicate
instantly
> with anyone on anything.
But "the prana is missing."
https://w2.eff.org/Misc/Publications/John_Perry_Barlow/HTML/utne_community.html
And that's what I've always wanted.
> One of the things I do to manage depression (besides medication) is
going
> outside at least 15 minutes a day. It's not a lot, but I think it
helps to
> clear my mind.
Going outside helps, but sometimes it just reminds me of how far away
I am from anyone who might understand me and deal with my annoying
lifestyle obstacles.
My family told me to take some Xanax to calm my nerves, and the
effects of it scared me. I still felt just as sad and achy as before.
The only thing that changed was my feelings toward other people. It
completely removed my empathy for all living things.
On top of this, I was still angry and wanting to do anything to get
what I wanted. I now understand how these drugs can push some people
over the edge so that they feel completely OK with shooting up a
place. I'm glad I was able to get myself to sleep before I convinced
myself that it's a good idea to go around the house destroying all the
furniture.
Software Freedom is an important thing, but to some extent, you have to think about yourself and your happiness.
For me, making a decent living and not being isolated from society are more important than 100% software freedom.
That's why i don't refuse to use whatsapp on my cellphone, though I hate the fact.
I have suffered from very serious depression and mental breakdown two times in a life-threatening way and in a softer way over years and years. You cannot compare mental problems, they are different from person to person, but I can tell you that
you should take every step possible as soon as possible against it.
Once it becomes really serious, you will go through hell and maybe never return. Don't underestimate it, and don't think "it can't get worse, I reached the bottom". I thought that too often in my life, and I wish I didn't.
For a first step, forget everything else and think about your health.
Once you're doing fine again, you can gradually introduce free software into your life to a level you feel still comfortable with and not like an outcast.
That said, it's true: you have to make friends in real life. "internet only" friends will always stay an illusion in my experience.
And I had a lot of experience with it...
I have to more advice for you: Never stop looking for a good therapist. There are horrible ones out there, it will not be easy, but you can find a good one in the end. Never refuse to take medicals for the time being. If things are serious, it's the only thing that helps (if I had to choose one fact that I know for sure in my life, it's this one).
Besides: never give up.
I wish you the best of luck.
I am a member!
name at domain wrote ..
> Software Freedom is an important thing, but to some extent, you have
to think
> about yourself and your happiness.
> For me, making a decent living and not being isolated from society
are more restrictions.
I did give in and use some sort of proprietary web app from Adobe, in
order to get a job that pays more than the rest but still won't cover
all my gas, food, and rent.
I would have room mates, but I wouldn't want to burden them with
living with me. Their cooking will smell worse than pot smoke, and I
will constantly be frustrated trying not to say anything about it or
make them feel uncomfortable. Also, looking in the fridge will flash
gruesome images through my head, and I can't have that happen in my
own home anymore.
> important than 100% software freedom.
> That's why i don't refuse to use whatsapp on my cellphone, though I
hate the
> fact.
I once caved and used Facebook to talk to people on Messenger.
Nobody really liked to talk, and nobody wanted to hang out. "Too
busy." So it was no better than IRC.
> For a first step, forget everything else and think about your health.
I'm thinking about skipping work and sitting on the patio of a coffee
shop that faces lots of people. If I don't hear them speak, I can
usually convince myself that there's someone in that crowd who would
have a shred of understanding and empathy for me, and appreciate me.
> Once you're doing fine again, you can gradually introduce free
software into
> your life to a level you feel still comfortable with and not like an
outcast.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried that with Facebook. It
ultimately left me with no arrangements for in-person visits, and
whatever community there is online will have the same problem.
> I have to more advice for you: Never stop looking for a good
therapist. There
> are horrible ones out there, it will not be easy, but you can find a
good one
> in the end.
We can't afford that, and the therapists don't understand how I'd feel
if I took their advice and got a smartphone/Facebook. I've tried it
before, and I felt like I wasn't myself.
> Never refuse to take medicals for the time being. If things are
> serious, it's the only thing that helps (if I had to choose one fact
that I
> know for sure in my life, it's this one).
Yes, I know. Although because I don't have a psych, this wasn't
prescribed to me. My family just said "take this." At times, the
medication worked. But I don't think I should have taken it last
night. Something scary happened in my mind.
It makes me lose any sense of empathy. It doesn't curb my anger, and
because I have no empathy, I want to destroy things. Last night, when
I took it, I wanted to take all my dollar bills and burn them, because
they were all worthless. Sure, they could buy me a few toys, but they
could never pay for my life so I'm not a parasite on my family.
> My family just said "take this."
That's terrible.
You don't have to take *some meds* but one prescribed by a good doctor.
You have to find a psych with good reputation, describe your problem and then you will get medicals that can help you.
During the period of my first time of serious sickness (i was seventeen), i got a pretty stupid doctor who gave me the wrong medicals.
It helped a little bit but not much and had a lot of side effects.
Years and years later, after life threatening second period of disease, i was lucky and got a clever doctor who gave me very good medicals. it helped me so much, without it i would definitely not be alive anymore today. *then* i was able to get a job (when i was really sick, i couldn't even be without extreme pain any second nor see anybody nor take a walk... a job was out of the question).
*then* i got friends and made positive social experiences for the first time in my life. *then* i could afford a therapist - not some therapist but for the first time a good one, I had a lot of shitty ones. And now I can gradually start to reduce the medicals.
So this is my advice: don't just swallow some meds, try to get the right ones.
If they are suitable for you, you will feel just normal but the negative feelings will be on a level that is possible to stand.
I am afraid giving you this advice is all that I can do for you. It will not be easy, but it can be done, i am the prime example for that. The most important thing is that you take action now.
"... don't just swallow some meds, try to get the right ones."
Indeed. Nothing sold by pharmaceutical companies has been shown to be as effective in curing depression (not just managing but actually curing) as psychedelics. See these talks by scientists on the use of Psilocybin from magic mushrooms to treat depression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kfGaVAXeMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81-v8ePXPd4
If depression is part of a response to severe trauma (eg Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), MDMA may also be effective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UygZnBTWW0M
Commercial psych drugs are a path to dependence (and in the US, expensive medical bills), not a path out of depression. I've seen friends prescribed anti-anxiety drugs, resulting in them sleeping for up to 20 hours a day, and feeling numb and fuzzy in their few waking hours. Prozac, one of the most commonly prescribed "anti-depressants" for years, has been found to increase the likelihood of suicide in some people (especially young people):
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/may/22/drugs.uknews
To be fair, I've also seen people get short term benefits from psych drugs; if they're working for you, keep taking them, and if you're going to come off them, definitely involve your doctor. But treat the pharma company PR about the benefits of their products with the same scepticism you'd apply to proprietary software company PR about the benefits of theirs.
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> If depression is part of a response to severe trauma (eg Post
Traumatic
> Stress Disorder), MDMA may also be effective:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UygZnBTWW0M
MDMA started out as a legitimate psych med and people stopped using it
for good reason.
And yeah: So far, the Xanax is having scary effects. I wanted it to
work by forcing me to fall asleep, but now they just give me an
uncomfortable disregard for human life.
> If I don't hear them speak, I can
> usually convince myself that there's someone in that crowd who would
> have a shred of understanding and empathy for me, and appreciate me.
This is a mindset you have to escape from. I had this mindset, too. It cost me my sanity, and it could easily have cost me my life.
The reality is that people will like and appreciate you, and they do have empathy for you. But the most important person who needs to like and appreciate you is you. If you don't like and appreciate yourself, you'll never notice when others do.
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I think you've got some good advise already, but here's my 2 cents anyway.
1) Are you suffering from clinical depression or are the external factors depressing you? If it's clinical depression, look for professional help at once, you'll be very happy you did. If the problems are external, I would make the following suggestions:
2) Find a job. Not having enough food is going to make anyone feel depressed. You're well educated and proficient in computers. I would say find a computer related job and be willing to be flexible on the job so you can get out of this bad place you're in right now. If you can't be flexible, don't get an IT related job. Since I don't know your full skillset though, it seems IT would be easiest. If you do get the job, don't mention free software. Learn what is expected of you first, do your job well, and then slowly and tactfully and when you've gained people's trust and respect, try to steer things in the direction you want. Obviously, look for a GNU/linux related job as opposed to a Microsoft one.
3) Spend most of your free time looking for this job. There are some good books to help you get into the right mindset, by Hillary Rettig. Look her up on your search engine. You can buy them on her website free of DRM for a dollar or two and it/they will help you.
4) Find activities you like and do them with others. Hopefully some are outdoors. Not sure where you live, but you can find a club or a gathering (reading club, chess club, sport club, hiking club, etc.). That's the first step to meeting new people with similar interests. Focus on the interest that brings you together and leave free software/unfree world stuff out for now. The world will usually not come knocking on your door. You must go out there with an open attitude first. Opportunities will start coming up the more you go out and connect with the world.
5) Don't over share. I remember at some point visiting your website and unexpectedly finding a nude photo of you (if I remember correctly). I understand wanting to break taboos as much as wanting everyone to use free software, etc. I can see that your intentions are good. However, over sharing and pushing things unto others may turn them away.
6) As hard as it sounds, try not to overwhelm people you know/meet with your negative feelings/thoughts. You will have a much better response from others if you focus on the positive. It sounds a bit sad to say, but most people feel they have their own problems. If you wish to have friends/get a job/etc. try to focus on how you can improve the life of those you meet. This will have a crazy positive effect, people will come to you, you will feel happier. We all want our problems solved. Become a problem solver for others. It will come back to you one way or another. Though don't expect it to come back necessarily from the person/people that you helped.
7) A woman once went to Buddha asking for help bringing her dead husband back to life. Buddha agreed to help and told her he needed some ingredients first. Among the ingredients, he asked the woman to bring back a single grain of pepper from a household where nobody had ever died. The woman went away and spent a long time looking for this grain of pepper. Eventually, she returned to Buddha and told him: "I understand." You see, there is no household that has not seen death. It is natural. It is a part of life. Likewise, there is no human being that does not suffer. Suffering is a part of life, as is pain. Once you accept this, it is easier to focus on finding your inner peace and making your life richer and more meaningful by connecting with others.
I hope this helps. I cannot stress this enough though: If your depression is clinical, seek professional help. Don't try to be tough. It is like trying to brave a serious illness with no medicine. If it is a physiological condition, you can get medicine for it and feel better.
You can also look for a psychologist (or a career councelor) to help even if it is not clinical (though I'm not sure if there is a free service in your area). Look it up, there may well be.
As cheesy as it sounds, rough seas make skillful sailors. Take this opportunity to learn about yourself and become stronger.
Put free software on the back burner while you fix the things that are making your life unbearable. Rettig has another book called "The Lifelong Activist," which is very helpful for activists who don't want to burn themselves out (she's friends with RMS btw). You are no use to yourself, to your loved ones or to the Free Software Movement if you are burned out.
Don't obsess with one thing or another that can make you feel like there is no way out. A couple of quotes related to this:
"What consumes your mind, controls your life."
"Your focus determines your reality."
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Two more things I forgot to mention:
8) Excercise is wonderful. Do you excercise enough? Most of us grew up in a culture that tries to separate the mind and the body. This is not so from my experience. The mind and body are one. Excercise will make you feel better: I guarantee it (money back and all). Do something you enjoy, otherwise you will not persevere. I like to play badminton, so I look forward to it. If you ask me to go to the gym and run on a treadmill or lift weights I will not be consistent (though it may be your calling).
9) Do you suffer from anxiety? Anxiety is many times coupled with depression and can be paralizing. There are many things you can do about this, including meditation. The best I have seen is a method called "The Linden Method." Check it out if you have anxiety. It can be downloaded through bittorrent without paying, which I would obviously not advise you to do as it is against the law and the guy has produced something of high quality and deserves support. You can send money to him once you get better and have a job. Grab a pot of chamomile tea while you're waiting for your download!
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Exercise is no fun alone.
I don't believe in trying to go through mental gymnastics to relieve
the actual problem of not having a place to belong in the world.
> I don't believe in trying to go through mental gymnastics to relieve
> the actual problem of not having a place to belong in the world.
I didn't either. But if you make it to the other side, escape from the darkness, you will see why you were so wrong to think this.
There is an underlying cause to your depression. I don't know what it is. But when you solve that, you will be happy. That is all that matters. It is a therapist's job to help you find out what the problem is, and help you solve it. Keep looking for therapists until you have found someone who helps.
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name at domain wrote ..
> I think you've got some good advise already, but here's my 2 cents
anyway.
>
> 1) Are you suffering from clinical depression or are the external
factors
> depressing you? If it's clinical depression, look for professional
help at
> once, you'll be very happy you did.
The problem is that whenever I try to get diagnosed, they say I'm not
depressed enough. When I am reassured that I'm loved and belong where
I am, and I don't feel like I have to hide myself, I don't get
symptoms of depression. It's always triggered by something, some
inkling of uncertainty.
There are long stretches of time where I am sure about everything, and
I am happy, and the psych caught me on one of those periods when he
was doing his evaluation.
> If the problems are external, I would
> make the following suggestions:
>
> 2) Find a job. Not having enough food is going to make anyone feel
depressed.
I spent six months looking for a job, and I finally have one. It pays
a wage I should be thankful for, but I cannot make it fit my expenses
no matter how many things I try to live without.
> You're well educated and proficient in computers. I would say find a
computer
> related job and be willing to be flexible on the job so you can get
out of
> this bad place you're in right now. If you can't be flexible, don't
get an IT
> related job.
I have long decided to not get an IT-related job.
> 4) Find activities you like and do them with others. Hopefully some
are
> outdoors. Not sure where you live, but you can find a club or a
gathering
> (reading club, chess club, sport club, hiking club, etc.). That's
the first
> step to meeting new people with similar interests. Focus on the
interest that
> brings you together and leave free software/unfree world stuff out
for now.
I hope to do this soon, if I can convince my mom to drive all the way
there. I pay the gas, but she's just really tired. We live very far
away from any organized human activity like businesses and groups.
> 5) Don't over share. I remember at some point visiting your website
and
> unexpectedly finding a nude photo of you (if I remember correctly).
That link was labeled pretty well.
> try to focus on how you can improve the life of those you meet.
I wrote a script to automate the boring task we have to do at work
every morning. Nobody cared.
I made cookies, and nobody ate them.
I made dinner for everyone, and nobody ate it.
> I hope this helps. I cannot stress this enough though: If your
depression is
> clinical, seek professional help. Don't try to be tough. It is like
trying to
> brave a serious illness with no medicine. If it is a physiological
condition,
> you can get medicine for it and feel better.
I already have to pay college $1,000 and the hospital $1,000.
> You can also look for a psychologist (or a career councelor) to help
even if
> it is not clinical (though I'm not sure if there is a free service
in your
> area). Look it up, there may well be.
I have mental issues so bad that some therapists get so shocked that
they stop talking to me in the middle of a session and they just wait
for it to be over. Luckily, that issue hasn't caused me grief in
ages, so I could get away with not talking about it with the therapist.
Regarding depression:
I used to experience depression, it was constant, and after a while I didn't even recognize it as depression. I eventually solved it a couple years ago when I finally accepted a truth about myself I had really known for years, but always tried to deny out of fear.
Now, I'm no psychologist, so I don't know what is causing you depression. But the first thing I would suggest: DROP the activism. All of it. When you're depressed, activism can seem like the only way to convince yourself that there is any meaning to life. But it doesn't really help. You don't leave depression from the mild bursts of euphoria that activism gives you, and the stress, including the stress of everyone disliking you for it, really can weigh down on you.
In particular, drop the veganism. I've heard anecdotes of depression caused by a deficiency of fat in the diet. I don't know how true it is, but it can't hurt to try. Other than that, focus on your mental health. Find a good therapist to guide you. Sell your soul if you have to. Use proprietary software if you have to. Nothing is worth compromising your mental health. Nothing. I promise you that.
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Yes, a balanced diet is very important and an unbalanced diet could be the cause of many things, including depression. A balanced vegan diet requires much more effort and care.
All good advise.
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> In particular, drop the veganism. I've heard anecdotes of depression
caused
> by a deficiency of fat in the diet.
Like I said earlier: I do NOT have a fat deficiency. Fat is in
everything I eat. I even eat coconut, the SATURATED FAT kind, to keep
you pseudo-scientific carbophobic jerks off my toes. Half the
calories in my breakfast came from nuts. Lay off!
But to top it all off, I've tried giving up before. It did not work,
and I was even more miserable.
This is a disproportionate reaction to what I said. Note that the second message still came before you had responded to the first.
All I'm saying is, eat the food you want to eat. Don't make things harder on yourself by trying to stick strictly to a perfect vegan diet. I guarantee you you can get something you like no matter where you eat at. It just might involve removing some ingredients, or substitutions where that's possible.
I just want to ask those suggesting "drop the veganism" how you would react if you were feeling down and someone suggested you "drop the not eating human flesh"? It's very disrespectful, because it implies (without explicitly saying so) that the choice to be vegan is based on superficial, faddish decision-making, when it's more often based on a deeply-help ethical belief that it's wrong to kill and eat other creatures, for the same reason it's wrong to kill and eat other people.
I'm not saying anyone ought to feel bad for not being vegan. I'm just asking that you respect people's reasons for being vegan. Maybe a more constructive suggestion, regardless of whether someone is vegan or opportunivore, is something like "make sure your diet contains all the nutrients your body needs to maintain good health"?
Veganism is a lifestyle choice that tends to be really strict and implies activism, not just a description of what you eat. A lot of the time, it involves refusing to eat at certain places because there's a chance that a tiny bit of meat or egg or cheese might accidentally get into your custom order that's not supposed to have these things, and the complaint about not being able to eat anywhere suggests to me that this is the case for calher. This is the sort of thing I am advising against. It's unnecessary stress.
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This is not the case. Most vegans do not refuse to eat at restaurants
that serve meat. The strictest vegan I know of, Gary Yourofsky,
doesn't even refuse to eat at places that serve meat. And he's a
radical vegan that will be a huge jerk if you're traveling with him
and you're wearing fur. And if you're ordering with him and sitting
at his table and you order meat, he will walk out and leave.
I demand very simply to eat at a place that has items that can
comprise a filling meal devoid of animal products that has enough
calories and is composed primarily of real vegetables, grains, tubers,
and pulses. I will pay for all your ice cream and stuff if you at
least go here instead of the places that have absolutely nothing to eat.
Steakhouse:
4 sweet potatoes, no sugar, no butter
steamed broccoli
salad, no cheese, no dressing, no croutons
a bowl of beans, if available
Subway:
Footlong veggie Delite on rye, ALL vegetables, no cheese, extra
olives, a scoop of guac.
Taco Hell:
4 bean burritos, fresco-style
McDonald's:
3 oatmeals, no cream
mango smoothie
Wendy's:
3 baked potatoes, no sour cream, lots of mustard
Chipotle:
Veggie burrito
double tortilla
double brown rice
double black beans
fajita vegetables
mild, medium, hot salsa
corn salsa
guac
lettuce
Olive Garden:
whole wheat pasta with children's marinara, lots of vegetables, extra
olives, extra mushrooms
minestrone soup
fazoli's:
white pasta
plain marinara
dry bread sticks
Pizza:
the dryest, thickest crust you can find
lots of marinara
all the vegetables you can find
extra olives
ground cashews
Chinese:
steamed tofu and vegetables
extra rice
garlic/white sauce, extra spicy
Thai:
jungle curry with extra rice
fresh spring rolls with peanut sauce
Japanese:
miso ramen, no egg, no dashi
vegetable sushi
"Veganism is a lifestyle choice ..."
Sure, just like not being a cannibal is a lifestyle choice. Again, there is a lack of respect in this comment that choosing to eat a vegan diet only is based on ethical beliefs, not aesthetic preferences.
"... implies activism ..."
When someone is involved in vegan advocacy or animal rights campaign, that is activism. Simply eating a vegan diet is activism only in the sense that not owning slaves is activism against slavery, or not pouring toxic waste into waterways is activism against pollution.
"A lot of the time, it involves refusing to eat at certain places because there's a chance that a tiny bit of meat or egg or cheese might accidentally get into your custom order ..."
No, it doesn't. This is about as common as free software geeks refusing to buy hardware of any kind from computer shops that sell any proprietary software. Again, there is an implied disrespect here, in the assumption that Calher's habits as a vegan are unreasonable. I suggest that you let the matter drop, and when you reply (as I expect you will), I refer you back to the initial comment and this one.
In that case, isn't choosing to use free software also a lifestyle choice that can cause a lot of stress? Except the difference is, using proprietary software reduces your own freedom a little bit, while consuming animal products harms others to the point of having no freedom whatsoever. Compared to animal rights, software freedom is an almost trivial issue, ethically speaking.
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I notice you are on the defensive. The idea of my post was not to make you feel that you were being attacked but rather giving you advise that has helped me and others I know.
People's responses and reactions are related to how they perceive you. From your answer here you come across as knowing better. It may well be the case, though I had the feeling you were asking for help.
If your job cannot fit your expenses no matter what, you should look for a different one while you are still employed, or even a secondary source of income to complement. Judging by what I read here I am quite sure you can get a job that allows you to make a decent living if you are willing to be flexible to accommodate the job and it's imperfections into your life.
In any case, I wish you all the best. Things always look dark through the fog of depression, but inertia can be built up after the first few proactive steps.
Calher, from reading this thread, it definitely seems to me that you are seriously depressed. I am not a psychologist, but like others who have commented here, I have also suffered from long periods of crippling depression and anxiety. So I feel you bro, it really sucks to feel like nobody cares and everything is pointless.
While some of the suggestions folks have made may or may not help, there is no silver bullet solution. But I want to reassure you that this too shall pass. I have no doubt that one day, you will look back on this period of your life, and marvel at the strength that allowed you to live through it. In the meantime, just focus on getting through this week, this day, or if it gets bad enough, this hour.
During my last serious depression crash, my father-in-law sent me his copy of a book called 'The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression' by Andrew Solomon. It's a combination of anecdotes about his own experiences with depression, interviews with other depressives and their families, and his research into different aspects of the illness. I found it strangely comforting to have many of the things I was experiencing described back to me, and to learn more about the history and science of the illness we call depression.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Noonday_Demon
Also, I find it helps to listen to music that connects me with how I'm feeling. Listening to a song like 'The Day I Tried to Live' by Soundgarden or 'Hope for a Generation' by Fat Freddy's Drop, and having a good cry, can be very therapeutic for me. Just a thought. Finally, feel free to keep talking about how you feel with people who are sympathetic (including us), that helps a lot, even if it doesn't feel like it at the time. I value your participation in this community, and I hope you feel better soon.
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>How does one live free in a nonfree world?
Rejecting non-free software, that is not installing any on a computer one has the control over (usually their own computer, the one they own, the one they bought with their own greens). That doesn't mean you must fry hamburgers instead of using say Mafiasoft Office if you can get a more decently payed and intellectually stimulating job only because 'muh freeeedom'... RMS will confirm this. On a computer you don't control using non-free sofware is not a sin in the Church of Emacs.
>Most people hate free software-only, and it is very difficult to make friends once they find out you don't do things because of some philosophical reason.
Nothing of value was lost. Do you prefer pseudofriends to loneliness? I don't think you do. If someone bases their friendship on facebook and netflix I don't want to be their friend nor would I ever consider them a friend. Maybe a way to momentarily escape loneliness, but that's not friendship.
>I don't have any friends to see face to face.
Well, if you ever come near where I'm currently positioned we can have a coffee together and see. You are an original and positively weird dude. I like that.
>I constantly feel like an outcast because everyone is on Facebook Messenger and I am not
You shouldn't. You should feel proud and just fine about it.
Why would you want to be a dumb sucker? Or at the best a human being that ignores or doesn't care?
>people always treat me like a gnuisance because of it.
Well, you can say: 'dude, I don't like Facecrap and I don't like phones, so I don't use the software you use. Here, have my mail address, you have that too on your phone, I have it on my computer. When you want to hang out with me just throw me a mail, my mail client alerts me immediately when I receive a new mail, so I will answer you immediately and we can hang out'. Something like that.
In any case, **don't talk about reasons, don't try to preach free software to random Joes, it counterproductive, ineffective and ultimately a waste of your time and energy.**
>I thought if I had a job and could support myself,
maybe I'd feel less depressed about having no friends.
Why?
>They always find out, and they always reject me because I won't watch Netflix or play a game or use a chat app.
Again, why do you care about it so much? Why would you want to have a friend that forces you to use or do something in order to be their friend? Is that friendship? If you want pseudofriendlystrangers just buy them beers and talk about pussy and football or soccer..
Dogs are amazing. Books are amazing. Friendship is overrated. Focus on getting a decent job (something that won't make you puke at the thought of it when you wake up in the morning) and a girlfriend/boyfriend.
You are welcome to write me a mail btw. I agree with Onpon - digital friendship doesn't make much sense, but it can help, so if you feel like it, we can exchange some text.
Feel good about yourself, as you should. cheers
"You are welcome to write me a mail btw."
Same goes for for me. I have been trying to put together a group of people to test free code voice and video chat software. Would this be something you might be keen to participate in?
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name at domain wrote ..
> "You are welcome to write me a mail btw."
>
> Same goes for for me. I have been trying to put together a group of
people to
> test free code voice and video chat software. Would this be
something you
> might be keen to participate in?
Sure! :D
>I feel completely powerless and worthless.
Look, we are at war in an abstract way or in the normal way of it. In your case, it's the former. The enemy (Microsoft, Netflix, Facebook, Monsanto and all that kind of things you know) want the ones who fights them to feel like that and they follow a simple war principle implemented in a complex mechanism: "Let your enemy make the useless actions and block the relevant ones".
You don't want to lose the war, but you can lose some battles. Take actions that are really relevant against them and avoid the ones that cost much but don't give that much. For example:
Relevants: Organize groups of serius study of the social problematics, join and help this kind of groups, spread useful information to the population, stop unjust laws, etc.
Irrelevant: All the actions that do not change significantly the society.
But before this, you have to be healthy in the social, mental and biological aspects. So, get that first with all the excellent advices that the people here have said.
And remember that you are not alone. You and the people like you (we) are spread in the world acting and waiting for the right moment ;)
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