***POSSIBLE SPAM*** Is webmail a service as a software substitute (SaaSS)?

30 respuestas [Último envío]
ADFENO
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/31/2012

Hi everybody,

I'm in the process of creating a student group to study and
promote free software usage - although I'm a bit late, and
won't see it in it's best days, but I'll try my best to keep it
running -, and, when declaring the group's opposition to
services as software substitutes, I was thinking: is webmail
deployed in a mail server's website a service as a software
substitute?

Just for clarity: I'm considering only the perspective of the
users of the service, not the service's/server's.

I think this question is important because many mail service
providers also provide POP3 or IMAP access, and so
allowing mail clients to send/receive e-mails.

Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.

--
Assinatura automática – português brasileiro:
– Site pessoal: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– Em favor da aprovação da Lei ODF em Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
e para garantir os direitos humanos de igual tratamento pelo
governo ou lei, de circulação dentro das fronteiras de cada
nação, de participação no governo, e de igualdade no
acesso aos serviços públicos, não estou aceitando arquivos
do Microsoft Office ou do Apple iWork. Por favor, use o
LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) e seus formatos
do padrão ODF (.odt, .odp, etc.).

Automatic signature – North American English:
– Personal website: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– In favor of the approval of the ODF law in Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
and to ensure the human rights of equal treatment by the
government or law, of circulation inside the boundaries of
each nation, of participation on the government, and of
equality on the access to the public services, I'm not
accepting Microsoft Office's files or Apple iWork's files.
Please use LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) and its
formats from the ODF standard (.odt, .odp, etc).

Legimet
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/10/2013

No it's not, because you're not doing your own computing on the server. On the other hand, the web interface might require nonfree JS, so you should use an email client in that case.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 10/31/2014

I have yet to find a web mail interfaxe that works without non-free JS! Do you know of any?

onpon4
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/30/2012

I'm pretty sure the one Riseup.net uses doesn't require JavaScript to work. Also, I remember that Gmail at least used to have a "basic HTML" Webmail mode which didn't require JavaScript.

Infieles
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/19/2014

Unfortunately the default mail.riseup.net site requires JavaScript; the
old Squirrelmail Riseup Webmail site (
https://mail.riseup.net/sm/src/login.php ) doesn't.

On Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 04:26 AM, name at domain wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the one Riseup.net uses doesn't require JavaScript to
> work. Also, I remember that Gmail at least used to have a "basic HTML"
> Webmail mode which didn't require JavaScript.
>

ssdclickofdeath
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/19/2013

The "Basic HTML" Gmail is still available.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 10/31/2014

You are right Onpon! I was able to sign in riseup mail without allowing javascript at all. I just assumed it wouldn't work for I've seen the red letters warning "this site requires javascript..."

Legimet
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/10/2013

I don't know, maybe some of these: https://www.fsf.org/resources/webmail-systems

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 10/31/2014

thx for the link legimet! After reading that page I signed up for a mailoo account and then opened up icedove to set it up with mailoo. This is where the process ended for when I've seen this I just clicked on cancel and quit icedove..
will attach the screenshot.. Why is so? Do they use some particular kind of certificate or what?

Screenshot - 03312015 - 03:01:39 AM.png
pizzaiolo
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/12/2015

There is a suggestion for Tutanota to comply with LibreJS, please upvote this link to give support to the proposition: https://tutanota.uservoice.com/forums/237921-general/suggestions/7502086-librejs-compliance

Tirifto
Desconectado/a
se unió: 02/19/2015

Technically, yes. Service becomes a substitute for Software in whatever you use it for instead of software that you control. You can use a client to fetch, write and manage your e-mails and contacts, but the messages are still being stored on someone else's server. Therefore, using your own client does give you control over some things, but most of the process still goes through the server.

I personally do use a mail service. I don't consider SaaSS by itself to be as bad as proprietary software. Taking someone's freedom away is never good and doing so can and does have severe far-stretched consequences. However, not everyone can afford or knows how to set up and manage their own mail server. Then some people offer them services of mail hosting. Some of those are bad (most of them are), while some of those can be nice, respect the users and follow noble ideals (Riseup, OpenMailBox?). That still doesn't make them good, yes, but I wouldn't call them evil. We should try to regain control over all our services, but these are an acceptable temporary solution for me.

TL;DR: Yes, mail services are SaaSS. If you use a good one, it's acceptable when better options are not accessible. In my opinion, that is.

lloydsmart

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/22/2012

In my opinion, yes.

The exception is when you run your own email server with webmail. That's the best solution all-round, actually. Check out Mailpile.is for an up-and-coming project that's tackling this problem.

tdlnx

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/09/2014

Technically since your personal email will be stored on an external server you could say that, however I don't believe it is the same as say.. using "cloud" apps. I personally have an email server set up that my family uses though I do use an external service for an alternate email address I check less frequently.

Also the FSF has a list of approved webmail systems (I personally use openmailbox.org for my alternate address) so that may be worth looking in to. Ideally, yes, it is best to host your own server but that isn't always a realistic option.

tomlukeywood
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/05/2014

you can run your own email server btw

Legimet
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/10/2013

That, in my opinion, is the ideal thing to do, and I hope to do it in the future.

tomlukeywood
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/05/2014

same

Trisk Spellian
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/20/2015

I have a website and email server through namecheap. I'm very happy with
their service. Recently, though, I switched over to Trisquel and along
with that Icecat. Now the Namecheap website won't function completely
unless I approve a bunch of nonfree js, which I don't want to do.

I once built a VPS and managed my own website and email server, but my
email was constantly being abused by spam accounts. I don't fully
understand how it happened. But when I chatted with people on IRC I got
scolded for running my own email server if I didn't know what I was
doing, because I was contributing to the spam problem.

I would love to run all of that stuff on my home computer, but there's
two main things stopping me.

#1 Is I simply haven't got the bandwidth to pull it off.

#2 I'm afraid of exposing the rest of my computer which is relatively
secure because I'm running a webserver, etc. that I really haven't got
the skills to keep secure, especially when you allow third parties to
contribute content and comments on my blog, etc.

I hope that someday in the future there will be new and easy ways to put
up websites, ways that are decentralized and secure and as easy enough
for grandma to do.

I'm already very hopeful about Bitmessage. I can't wait for the day that
it's in the Trisquel repo. That, to me, seems like an amazing way for
individuals to easily engage in safe and ethical email. Now we just need
something for blogs.

JadedCtrl
Desconectado/a
se unió: 08/11/2014

I mean, SaaSS is when you do your computing on someone else's computer (Like Google Docs), while something that has to do with communicating with people (Like this forum, IMing, webmail) is not you doing your computing on someone else's computer.
Webmail is not SaaSS.
However, I do recommend hosting your own email server, as webmail does bring up some privacy issues and such. Or you could use webmail, if that doesn't concern you too much.

t3g
t3g
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/15/2011

Does anyone still use Roundcube on their own servers? http://roundcube.net/download

muhammed
Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/13/2013

Hi Adonay,

Congratulations on your student club!

A year or two ago, we talked about making a guide for beginners, but then we both got busy with school. I typed up some rough material ... it's gfdl so you can use/adopt it for your new club if you like.

liberationserif.com

Good luck,

M

ADFENO
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/31/2012

15-04-2015 19:11:31 name at domain:
> Hi Adonay,
>
> Congratulations on your student club!
>
> A year or two ago, we talked about making a guide for
beginners, but then we
> both got busy with school. I typed up some rough
material ... it's gfdl so
> you can use/adopt it for your new club if you like.
>
> liberationserif.com
>
> Good luck,
>
> M

Thank you very much Muhammed,

I'm really sorry for not being able to continue that project.
Lots of obstacles are setting me back, mainly the need to
spread the word about free software here in the city where I
live (which I believe, really needs to know about free
software).

The entire Brazilian government prioritizes free software
usage, however the State of Santa Catarina (and it's cities)
seems to be one of the exceptions/cases where free software
didn't reach the same level of importance.

Just to show how critical things are, most educational
institutions (be them middle schools, high schools, colleges
or universities) aren't really advocating for the use of formats
used by free software by default (that is, they don't care if
they receive a .doc or .docx document, nor an .mp4 video,
they just open/use it as it is, and even so, they sometimes
require or send files with this formats). Even knowing that
the Brazilian Association of Technical Standards voted
against the approval of OOXML as a "standard" for office
files, and that the very same organization recognizes formats
of the ODF standard as such here in Brazil.

Not even mentioning the obligation for their students or
teachers to run non-free JavaScript in order to access their
so-called "academic system" to manage/check grades,
upload/download learning materials. The only exception for
this being their distant learning system which uses Moodle,
which fortunately respects the user's freedom by working
without non-free JavaScript (although it does have some).

Also, you're doing a wonderful work by showing how the
free software philosophy is important for defense attorneys.
Keep it up. :D

Here in the college where I study, I'm having a hard time
making the college aware of the free software philosophy.
Even after showing them a scientific article published by the
Brazilian Ministry of Science and Technology (which links
organizational management, laws and ethics and, although
mixing free software with open source software in the main
subject of the article, does make it clear to the reader that the
two movements have differences)
(http://www.mct.gov.br/upd_blob/0008/8690.pdf), and even
knowing the existence of organizations which develop non-
free software like Windows, Office, iWork, MacOS, SAP
ERP, Linux (kernel), WPS Office, OpenOffice and so on.

Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.

--
Assinatura automática – português brasileiro:
– Site pessoal: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– Em favor da aprovação da Lei ODF em Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
e para garantir os direitos humanos de igual tratamento pelo
governo ou lei, de circulação dentro das fronteiras de cada
nação, de participação no governo, e de igualdade no
acesso aos serviços públicos, não estou aceitando arquivos
do Microsoft Office ou do Apple iWork. Por favor, use o
LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) e seus formatos
do padrão ODF (.odt, .odp, etc.).

Automatic signature – North American English:
– Personal website: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– In favor of the approval of the ODF law in Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
and to ensure the human rights of equal treatment by the
government or law, of circulation inside the boundaries of
each nation, of participation on the government, and of
equality on the access to the public services, I'm not
accepting Microsoft Office's files or Apple iWork's files.
Please use LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) and its
formats from the ODF standard (.odt, .odp, etc).

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

What about Bitmessage? Would that be a SaaSS? You store a part of the encrypted database, but not all of it so you can't say that someone else is not storing your encrypted email until you fetch it from the network (from what I understand, please someone with more knowledge on Bitmessage give us some insight).

jei
jei

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 02/18/2015

Bitmessage uses block chain technology afaik. As thus it isn't SaaSS because it doesn't make sense in this context to run a block chain only on your PC and not distributed. Of course it makes sense to make your PC to be a part of the block chains that you use.

quantumgravity
Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/22/2013

Hmm it's a difficult question.
I also wonder if actually using a normal mail provider is SaaSS (in contrast to running your own).
I mean, the job your mail provider is doing could be done on your own computer, you just have to install the right libre program, right?
On the other hand, though i don't know much about the technical structure of the internet, i believe your email has to pass a lot of servers anyway, even if you send it with your own mail server.
So it comes down to the question if you want to subdivide the process of sending an email into smaller parts or just take it as one single process.
You can't have email contact to another person just with your own computer, but you could do some parts of it.

ADFENO
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/31/2012

16-04-2015 12:45:24 name at domain:
> Hmm it's a difficult question.
> I also wonder if actually using a normal mail provider is
SaaSS (in contrast
> to running your own).
> I mean, the job your mail provider is doing could be done
on your own
> computer, you just have to install the right libre program,
right?
> On the other hand, though i don't know much about the
technical structure of
> the internet, i believe your email has to pass a lot of
servers anyway,
> even if you send it with your own mail server.
> Is that true?
> So it comes down to the question if you want to subdivide
the process of
> sending an email into smaller parts or just take it as one
single process.
> You can't have email contact to another person just with
your own computer,
> but you could do some parts of it.

For one thing I'm sure:

Using a mail provider's service isn't SaaSS (instead, it's a
matter of risk, not computing freedom)
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/google-engineering-talk.html#dangers-of-webmail-loss-of-freedom)
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html)
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/judge-internet-usage.html)
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html).

It isn't SaaSS because the average user can't practically do
this kind of computing since it requires specific knowledge
to set it up.

Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.

--
Assinatura automática – português brasileiro:
– Site pessoal: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– Em favor da aprovação da Lei ODF em Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
e para garantir os direitos humanos de igual tratamento pelo
governo ou lei, de circulação dentro das fronteiras de cada
nação, de participação no governo, e de igualdade no
acesso aos serviços públicos, não estou aceitando arquivos
do Microsoft Office ou do Apple iWork. Por favor, use o
LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) e seus formatos
do padrão ODF (.odt, .odp, etc.).

Automatic signature – North American English:
– Personal website: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– In favor of the approval of the ODF law in Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
and to ensure the human rights of equal treatment by the
government or law, of circulation inside the boundaries of
each nation, of participation on the government, and of
equality on the access to the public services, I'm not
accepting Microsoft Office's files or Apple iWork's files.
Please use LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) and its
formats from the ODF standard (.odt, .odp, etc).

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

I would have to disagree with the principle: freedom is not an issue of "easy" or "difficult". By that principle, Skype would be free because it is (maybe) easier to use.
Now, I understand agree that if something is terribly hard to do on your own, you should be free to use a service that provides you with that. Of course, using only free software to access the service, choosing a service that respects your freedom/privacy, etc, is important.
I don't necessarily see SaaSS as a bad thing, depends on the task and the way it works. As for email, I think we should target more at promoting and using GPG or maybe bitmessage. I wouldn't mind using Google Account if ALL my email was encrypted... Well, yes I would, I currently use openmailbox and I love it :P but you got my point :P

quantumgravity
Desconectado/a
se unió: 04/22/2013

"It isn't SaaSS because the average user can't practically do
this kind of computing"

That's very vague;
a lot of people would argue that Gnu/linux is practically too difficult for the average user...
or, imagine if a libre dictionary is very complicated and an online dictionary is very easy to use; would it be "less SaaSS"?

I think it makes more sense to ask: Would i be able to avoid giving away control over my data if i use a program on my own computer instead of using this service?
Because that's what it's all about, right? Control, and therefore freedom;
When it comes to email, the answer is no, both for webmail and mail server.

Otherwise you would reach the conclusion that posting on this forum is SaaSS because you could use the mailing list instead, hence edit and send the messages with your own mail client;
Actually, it's almost the same exact question like webmail vs own mail client.

ADFENO
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/31/2012

16-04-2015 21:55:05 name at domain:
> That's very vague;
> a lot of people would argue that Gnu/linux is practically
too difficult for
> the average user...
> or, imagine if a libre dictionary is very complicated and an
online
> dictionary is very easy to use; would it be "less SaaSS"?
>
> I think it makes more sense to ask: Would i be able to
avoid giving away
> control over my data if i use a program on my own
computer instead of using
> this service?
> Because that's what it's all about, right? Control, and
therefore freedom;
> When it comes to email, the answer is no, both for
webmail and mail server.
>
> Otherwise you would reach the conclusion that posting on
this forum is SaaSS
> because you could use the mailing list instead, hence edit
and send the
> messages with your own mail client;
> Actually, it's almost the same exact question like webmail
vs own mail
> client.

I do agree that my arguments were vague in that case (I don't
know why I have said such thing). Although I have gathered
enough references to prove my point, I accidentally failed to
make an argument using the references. Well... They're still
there, if you want to check it out. :D

However, using a forum isn't SaaSS because the user can't
have the very same forum (with the very same topics,
replies, and such things, in the very same timing)
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html).

Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.

--
Assinatura automática – português brasileiro:
– Site pessoal: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– Em favor da aprovação da Lei ODF em Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
e para garantir os direitos humanos de igual tratamento pelo
governo ou lei, de circulação dentro das fronteiras de cada
nação, de participação no governo, e de igualdade no
acesso aos serviços públicos, não estou aceitando arquivos
do Microsoft Office ou do Apple iWork. Por favor, use o
LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) e seus formatos
do padrão ODF (.odt, .odp, etc.).

Automatic signature – North American English:
– Personal website: http://adfeno.mooo.com/
– In favor of the approval of the ODF law in Santa Catarina
(https://secure.avaaz.org/po/petition/Aprovacao_da_Lei_ODF_em_Santa_Catarina),
and to ensure the human rights of equal treatment by the
government or law, of circulation inside the boundaries of
each nation, of participation on the government, and of
equality on the access to the public services, I'm not
accepting Microsoft Office's files or Apple iWork's files.
Please use LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/) and its
formats from the ODF standard (.odt, .odp, etc).

GNUser
Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/17/2013

FSF.org and GNU.org have a lot of great information, and I totally support the use of free software only. However, I would suggest that you take their articles and opinions with a grain of salt. This isn't a religion you know, not everything they say is right. In this particular context, I don't think that SaaSS is bad by itself, as I explained earlier.

Mampir
Desconectado/a
se unió: 12/16/2009

There should be more effort on making home email servers easy to install and use. A home email server would barely require any bandwidth or processing power.

The same as most people have home WiFi routers running 24/7, we should instead have small, cheap and low-powered computers running GNU. Those kind of computers should be capable of functioning as a WiFi router (and much better!) and also have servers for email, web, XMPP, federated social networking and anything you want to install.

We seem to have the hardware needed for this (single board computers), but not the software. We need an OS that makes this easy to manage.

JadedCtrl:
> something that has to do with communicating with people (Like this forum, IMing, webmail) is not you doing your computing on someone else's computer.
Webmail is not SaaSS.

An email service and instant messaging aren't a web forum. The point of a forum is that your messages are made public one a specific website - you so everyone can read your posts.

With email and IM your messages typically aren't for everyone read, they are private. Also, you with email and IM you communicate with people who aren't part of a specific site, so being dependent on someone (like Google) becomes an issue.

quantumgravity:
> On the other hand, though i don't know much about the technical structure of the internet, i believe your email has to pass a lot of servers anyway, even if you send it with your own mail server.
> So it comes down to the question if you want to subdivide the process of sending an email into smaller parts or just take it as one single process.
You can't have email contact to another person just with your own computer, but you could do some parts of it.

That's not how it works. If you and I both have an email server, we can send exchange messages without them passing through any other servers. Well, the messages should still be encrypted between the servers, since all information on the Internet goes through third parties such as ISP companies. That's why we use TLS.

quantumgravity:
> I think it makes more sense to ask: Would i be able to avoid giving away control over my data if i use a program on my own computer instead of using this service?
> Because that's what it's all about, right? Control, and therefore freedom;
When it comes to email, the answer is no, both for webmail and mail server.

Can't agree with this conclusion. When people use their own email servers, they gain privacy and independence from email server providers. Hence, they gain control and freedom!

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

The same as most people have home WiFi routers running 24/7, we should instead have small, cheap and low-powered computers running GNU. Those kind of computers should be capable of functioning as a WiFi router (and much better!) and also have servers for email, web, XMPP, federated social networking and anything you want to install.

We seem to have the hardware needed for this (single board computers), but not the software. We need an OS that makes this easy to manage.

We have YunoHost: https://yunohost.org

And the FreedomBox (with very high ambitions in term of resilience and privacy) is slowly but surely reaching a usable state: https://freedomboxfoundation.org

Both projects are based on Debian. Be careful not to activate the "contrib" or the "non-free" sections of its repository if you value your freedoms.