suggestions for trisquel mini
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earlier today on the irc, i was encouraged to start a forum topic discussing possible suggestions for the mini version of trisquel.
so far i have come up with:
windows managers:
-fluxbox
-openbox
network managers:
-wicd
i will keep adding to this list as thoughts come along.
feel free to contribute
2010/2/26 <name at domain>:
> earlier today on the irc, i was encouraged to start a forum topic discussing
> possible suggestions for the mini version of trisquel.
I remember in red hat you could choose server, desktop or some other
options and even choose which groups of packages to install in that
installation. It would be great to make the same type of installer.
On the other hand it could be a base installation that once restarted
could download a package for installation of a basic
web/mail/forum/list server or complete gnome desktop or complete kde
desktop. A turnkey system that would have everything needed as the
idea is in Ututo.
--
Saludos/Greetings
Quiliro Ordóñez
Estas opiniones son las de un Consejero de FSFLA pero no representan
la posición oficial de FSFLA porque eso implica el consenso para ello
en el Consejo.
593(02)340 1517 / 593(09)821 8696
http://quiliro.wordpress.com
"¿Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado y
el último pez atrapado nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer
dinero?"
"Only when the last tree is dead, the last river is poisoned and the
last fish is caught will we realize that money is not edible?"
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Are you proposing something like a server install?
If that is the case, that could be included in the main live cd.
The "mini" version of trisquel should be oriented toward older computers and netbooks. That is the main focus of the project. The customization issue should be taken into account.
> I remember in red hat you could choose server, desktop or some other
> options and even choose which groups of packages to install in that
> installation. It would be great to make the same type of installer.
That cannot be done with Live CD's. You can use the network install
method to do that.
>
> On the other hand it could be a base installation that once restarted
> could download a package for installation of a basic
> web/mail/forum/list server or complete gnome desktop or complete kde
> desktop. A turnkey system that would have everything needed as the
> idea is in Ututo.
That's how the netinst works.
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El día 27 de febrero de 2010 16:06, Rubén Rodríguez Pérez
<name at domain> escribió:
>
>> I remember in red hat you could choose server, desktop or some other
>> options and even choose which groups of packages to install in that
>> installation. It would be great to make the same type of installer.
>
> That cannot be done with Live CD's. You can use the network install
> method to do that.
>
>>
>> On the other hand it could be a base installation that once restarted
>> could download a package for installation of a basic
>> web/mail/forum/list server or complete gnome desktop or complete kde
>> desktop. A turnkey system that would have everything needed as the
>> idea is in Ututo.
>
> That's how the netinst works.
I don't see the netinstall method on the download page. I can only see:
http://trisquel.info/en/download
Trisquel 3.0.1 Dwyn
Trisquel 3.0.1 Dwyn Sources DVD
Trisquel 2.2.2 LTS Robur
Trisquel 2.2.2 LTS Robur Edu
Trisquel 2.2.2 LTS Robur Pro DVD
Trisquel 2.2.2 LTS Robur Sources DVD
Thanks for the info. For the sake of installing servers on FLISoL
installfest, is it easier to make a dd to make a copy of a
preinstalled version or to make the installation from the installation
CDs.
--
Saludos/Greetings
Quiliro Ordóñez
Estas opiniones son las de un Consejero de FSFLA pero no representan
la posición oficial de FSFLA porque eso implica el consenso para ello
en el Consejo.
593(02)340 1517 / 593(09)821 8696
http://quiliro.wordpress.com
"¿Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado y
el último pez atrapado nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer
dinero?"
"Only when the last tree is dead, the last river is poisoned and the
last fish is caught will we realize that money is not edible?"
_______________________________________________
Trisquel-users mailing list
name at domain
http://listas.trisquel.info/mailman/listinfo/trisquel-users
Where is the netinstall?
--
Saludos/Greetings
Quiliro Ordóñez
Estas opiniones son las de un Consejero de FSFLA pero no representan
la posición oficial de FSFLA porque eso implica el consenso para ello
en el Consejo.
593(02)340 1517 / 593(09)821 8696
http://quiliro.wordpress.com
"¿Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado y
el último pez atrapado nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer
dinero?"
"Only when the last tree is dead, the last river is poisoned and the
last fish is caught will we realize that money is not edible?"
_______________________________________________
Trisquel-users mailing list
name at domain
http://listas.trisquel.info/mailman/listinfo/trisquel-users
-----Original Message-----
From: Quiliro Ordóñez <name at domain>
Subject: Re: [Trisquel-users] suggestions for trisquel mini
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:12:14 -0500
Where is the netinstall?
The only one that I have found is at:
http://devel.trisquel.info/netinst/
Interesting reading about it at:
http://config.fsf.org/trisquel4fsf/wiki?name=Scope+of+Work+and+Progress
Brian
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It should be aimed at two targets: Aging computers and netbooks. Start with Ubuntu-server as the base, with our libre kernel and repos of course.
For a desktop environment, I think LXDE is the best choice because it has a great balance of features, customization, and performance. Xfce is too heavyweight in comparison. Fluxbox is only a window manager without additional packages, and to change any settings you have to manually edit text files.
The following packages are already included in LXDE:
PCMan File Manager
LXLauncher, easy-mode application launcher
LXPanel, desktop panel
LXSession, session manager
LXAppearance, theme switcher
leafpad, text editor
Xarchiver, archiving
GPicView, image viewer
LXMusic, an xmms2 client, audio player
LXTerminal, terminal emulator
LXTask, task manager
LXDM, X display manager
LXNM, lightweight network connection helper daemon for LXDE supporting wireless connections (GNU/Linux-only)
Openbox, window manager
Package suggestions:
-wicd
-Abiword
-Midori browser
-XMMS2 music player
-Abiword
-MTPaint
-Xpdf
-Xchat
-Sylpheed email client
-Dictionary reader
-Gnumeric spreadsheet
-Bitstorm Lite (for bittorrent files)
-SIM-IM
-Twinkle VoIP app
-Xfburn CD/DVD burning
I don't know of a suitable lightweight video player replacement in our repos. We may have to stick with Totem, even though it's not a lightweight app...
If the team needs art for Trisquel-Mini (logo, background, login, etc.) just say the word. Making documentation and art for this distro is something I genuinely enjoy. :)
Thanks for your suggestions.
Lxde is in actual fact a good idea, but using a simple window manager with low cpu usage might be better. An issue with lxde might be the presence of too many applications which may be replaced or not needed. For example wicd could replace lxnm, and htop could replace lxtask. Lxlauncher may not be needed for a basic os. I was going to propose roxterm instead of lxterminal.
As far as multimedia is concerned, i was opting more for an all-in one app, with large multimedia support, instead of using separate apps for audio and video. That would also take away the need for lxmusic.
Pcmanfm, leafpad, lxpanel, lxappearance, xarchiver and gpicview are valid suggestions though. Also, xpdf, wicd, abiword, xchat, sylpheed, twinlke voip, sim-im and gnumeric should be taken into consideration.
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"Thanks for your suggestions.
Lxde is in actual fact a good idea, but using a simple window manager with low cpu usage might be better. An issue with lxde might be the presence of too many applications which may be replaced or not needed. For example wicd could replace lxnm, and htop could replace lxtask. Lxlauncher may not be needed for a basic os. I was going to propose roxterm instead of lxterminal."
LXDE is perfectly light enough in my opinion, and has good features. This is 2010; the number of computers out there that are so old they even show distinction between OpenBox and FluxBox performance are very few. You have a point about wicd. LxLauncher on the other hand is precisely the kind of application that is useful for netbooks. lxterminal and roxterm are both lightweight terminals, so there's no particularly strong difference there.
"As far as multimedia is concerned, i was opting more for an all-in one app, with large multimedia support, instead of using separate apps for audio and video. That would also take away the need for lxmusic."
I don't know of a lightweight app that plays both videos and audio; audio decoding and video rendering are two very different things beneath the surface, so applications that perform both tasks well are heavyweight almost by implication. But lxmusic isn't as developed as XMMS2 AFAIK. It should be replaced with XMMS2.
It is a common misconception that Xfce is heavier than LXDE or LXDE is lighter. The thing about distributions like Xubuntu is that they tack a bunch of GNOME bloat on top of Xfce. If you do a Xubuntu netinstall, you can have a Xfce setup that is as light as LXDE without the compromises in usability and stability. That's why a lot of Xfce users use Arch as their distro, since they can install Xfce without added bloat.
Ironically, LXDE is more or less a derivivative of Xfce.
Just my two cents. Xfce is my favourite desktop environment and I much prefer it over LXDE.
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:31:49 +0100 (CET)
name at domain wrote:
> That's why a lot
> of Xfce users use Arch as their distro, since they can install Xfce
> without added bloat.
[...]
> Just my two cents. Xfce is my favourite desktop environment and I
> much prefer it over LXDE.
I would agree with that, as I use Xfce on Slackware because of the
balance between performance and features.
Still: I have not tested the difference between the two in terms of RAM,
but Xfce takes considerably longer to start up than Lxde on this box.
Also, the original suggestions were Fluxbox and Openbox, and I still
lean towards these... With Lxde you get some features for free (or
cheaper) because the network manager and login manager use the Lxde
core, as I understand it.
Also, the other two don't have built-in battery managers, so that's
going to have to be found, if it is intended for netbooks.
Yours,
Morten
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http://writtenandread.net * name at domain
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I have these applications to add to the list:
-GIMP
-cheese
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Both of these are heavyweight, especially GIMP. That's why I recommended MTPaint. But a webcam app on the default install isn't necessary for even a regular size distribution, so it's far from necessary for a lightweight one.
Gimp can be excluded. A webcam application would be useful though, since all netbooks have webcams.
On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:57:07 +0100 (CET)
name at domain wrote:
> Gimp can be excluded. A webcam application would be useful though,
> since all netbooks have webcams.
While I have not used it, I got the impression that WxCam was a good
lightweight webcam application:
http://wxcam.sourceforge.net/
- seems like a better application for a lightweight distribution.
Yours,
Morten
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Moving morten juhl-johansen zoelde-fejer's suggestions to this topic:
"Window manager:
-fluxbox
Editor:
-medit
Terminal emulator:
-xterm
-sakura( i don't see why this was suggested when roxterm had already been proposed)
Theme changer:
-gtk-chtheme
IM:
-gajim
Email:
-claws"
I also have come up with other applications:
Coding:
-emacs(if not included by default)
-geany
-Spe(Stani's python editor, not sure if gpl)
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"-emacs(if not included by default)"
pips, no offense, but when you suggest eMacs as a default application in a light distro, how are we supposed to take you for serious?
emacs was intended only for coding, as an optional. obviously it could also be rejected by the user. i was just proposing it for coding, not as default. geany, which has a wide range of supported formats could be default. still, coding applications aren't supposed to be included by default in a lightweight distro. i was just jotting down ideas.
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Revised list of package suggestions:
-wicd
-Abiword
-Midori browser
-XMMS2 music player
-Abiword
-MTPaint
-Xpdf
-Xchat
-Claws mail and RSS client
-GNUmeric spreadsheet
-Bitstorm Lite (for bittorrent files)
-SIM-IM
-Twinkle VoIP app
-Xfburn CD/DVD burning
-WxCam for webcams
For a text editor and terminal app, I have no strong suggestions to make because A.) There are too many choices and B.) I've hardly tried any of them. So, we should try for ones that use very few dependencies but remain feature-rich. LXDE's defaults are presumably already good for that.
That covers everything except video playback. Besides the customization concerns I've already mentioned, I hope that FluxBox will not be used for another reason: its license is MIT, whereas OpenBox's is GPL.
On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:54:43 +0100 (CET)
name at domain wrote:
> Revised list of package suggestions:
>
> -wicd
> -Abiword
> -Midori browser
> -XMMS2 music player
> -Abiword
> -MTPaint
> -Xpdf
> -Xchat
> -Claws mail and RSS client
> -GNUmeric spreadsheet
> -Bitstorm Lite (for bittorrent files)
> -SIM-IM
> -Twinkle VoIP app
> -Xfburn CD/DVD burning
> -WxCam for webcams
This may just be me, but... is a spreadsheet application necessary? I
know that it is a thing usually included, but... how many people use it
on a day-to-day basis? On a netbook? Is it not a remnant of the mindset
that an office suite is text, spreadsheet and presentation?
Also, I am unsure whether this is a good idea, but I find that Arora -
the QT cousin of Midori - has some features making it more interesting.
It allows for saving passwords, which Midori does not, and it has a
nice download manager. Of course, if it is the only app using QT, it
will bring a somewhat heavy load.
Should you consider including a "Recommended for purposes not covered
here" document linking to other lightweight applications like they have
on the Xfce wiki: http://wiki.xfce.org/recommendedapps
- where, by the way, there are also interesting suggestions, which I
all use:
* Ktsuss: A small application which works like gksu/kdesu for making
run-as-root dialogs.
* SLiM: The small login manager.
* Uget: A nice lightweight download manager.
* Catfish: A search application by the same programmer as Midori, but
less actively developed.
Yours,
Morten
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"This may just be me, but... is a spreadsheet application necessary?"
It highly varies depending upon one's job description, I guess. The first time I encountered But a spreadsheet is a common enough
"Of course, if it is the only app using QT, it
will bring a somewhat heavy load."
Correct.
"* Uget: A nice lightweight download manager."
I forgot about a download manager. Added.
EDIT: LXDE doesn't have file searching. Catfish added (though, note that it hasn't been maintained in a long time)
-wicd
-Abiword
-Midori browser
-XMMS2 music player
-Abiword
-MTPaint
-Xpdf
-Xchat
-Claws mail and RSS client
-GNUmeric spreadsheet
-Bitstorm Lite (for bittorrent files)
-SIM-IM
-Twinkle VoIP app
-Xfburn CD/DVD burning
-WxCam for webcams
-UGet download manager
-Catfish file searching tool
Pcmanfm has file search.
Alternatively, launchy is both ktsuss and file search.(Not sure about the license though....)
Are we going with LXDE?
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"Pcmanfm has file search."
Yeah. :) I thought that it probably did, but perhaps a stand-alone search tool is also desirable.
"Are we going with LXDE?"
Hopefully we are, as LXDE:
-Is under the GPL
-Is lighter than Xfce, without sacrificing features
-Comes ready with a close-knit core of configuration and file browsing applications
But quidam hasn't said anything definitive.
Initially i wanted to propose something more like custom desktop.
Openbox + conky + pypanel or lxpanel + screenlets
Fluxbox + fbdesk + fbpanel
Icewm + rox desktop
These lighter solutions also give some good eyecandy, and are extremely customizable.
I have seen lxlauncher is still a little buggy, and i can't quite customize it. Unr looked better. Not sure about using a launcher though.
LXDE seems to be very light indeed:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?
page=article&item=linux_desktop_vitals&num=2
> LXDE seems to be very light indeed
LXDE it is. Also, I've updated the suggestions list at the wiki:
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/suggestions-trisquel-mini
I've added some simple pointers or "rules", and I've marked in bold the
packages to be included, based on that rules. This selections are not
marked in stone, though.
I've markerd nothing in the multimedia section. We need to choose
a video player and an audio one, both relying in gstreamer. That means
they will be equally powerful in terms of playing, so we just need to
keep one that's light and simple. I think Totem is ok for video.
As we will probably move to Exaile for Trisquel 4, I think we can
include it and test it in the meantime.
I'm not sure about including pulseaudio, but we probably should.
> As we will probably move to Exaile for Trisquel 4, I think we can
> include it and test it in the meantime.
I installed Exaile and will use it rather than Rhythmbox to see how well it does with Trisquel 3.5. How does it compare/differ with Rhythmbox? My understanding is that it's a GTK+ version of Amarok, which I have not used.
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The features of Rhythmbox and Exaile aren't that different. In fact, Rhythmbox has some features that Exaile doesn't. The major advantage of Exaile is the sleekness and beauty of its interface. Everything just clicks very will in recent versions, IMO. Amarok is foremost in features but, besides being a KDE-dependent application, actually has a lot of clutter.
So far Exaile works great. The only thing I can't figure out is burning a CD. I checked the internet and found that Exaile uses Serpentine to burn an audio CD. I went to install Serpentine, but there are 43 other packages that need to be installed with Serpentine. Before I proceed I want to ask if this info is correct. Thanks.
Are there specific reasons Exaile would replace Rhythmbox or is it a preference issue.
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It's not necessary for music management software to allow you to burn a CD. Software bloat is not an issue to be overlooked. Trisquel already comes with Brasero for burning.
"Are there specific reasons Exaile would replace Rhythmbox or is it a preference issue."
Sleekness, great interface, snappy album art fetching and tag editing. It isn't the most feature-rich music application in the world, but by the same token it's refreshingly simple, instantly intuitive and even lightweight enough to be included in Trisquel Mini.
I'm not sure which one uses less hard drive space, but that's another important factor because we want to keep this nice system to one CD.
I am opening a wiki page with all suggestions for all applications. I will divide them in categories and post all of them.
Here is the link: http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/Suggestions_for_Trisquel_Mini
I would also suggest htop as a task manager
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Great!
> earlier today on the irc, i was encouraged to start a forum topic
> discussing possible suggestions for the mini version of trisquel.
And it is working nicely so far, I see a lot of good ideas in the
thread. Pips17 just started a wiki entry summarizing the thread at
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/suggestions-trisquel-mini
You are all invited to start expanding this page with pros and cons for
every entry. You should always take in consideration this ideas:
- Only programs already in the repository are usable. We will not
import new software for this kind of job.
- The most used program is most likely the better choice
- Translations are very important
- We will only include GTK+ apps
- Low memory usage is more important than file size
- We would like to keep the image below the 400MB mark, to allow it to
be used in 512mb usb thumb drives with some space for persistence data.
- Usability is a strong requirement. All programs must be easy to use.
- A known old program is often better than a cool new one.
- The bleeding edge is not important, we aim to small computers.
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I will start removing applications which i know that aren't in the repository that i know of.
Can someone else help me verify please? Thanks.
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How many of my own suggestions fail to comply with these criteria?
Does anyone know what kind of deps Mplayer pulls in, using the standard
GTK theme as a GUI? Is it too much? I have the worst experiences with
Xine, and VLC will likely be a heavy bundle.
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> Does anyone know what kind of deps Mplayer pulls in, using the
> standard GTK theme as a GUI?
The MPlayer project actively recommends and distributes non-free
software, so we do not recommend it. It is not in our repository.
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Added Filezilla as a suggestion for FTP client.
Yours,
M
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MPlayer is indeed lighter than Totem, but it's excluded from our repos for some reason (ask quidam).
Also, an FTP client is not necessary for the default installation.
On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:12:32 +0100 (CET)
name at domain wrote:
> MPlayer is indeed lighter than Totem, but it's excluded from our
> repos for some reason (ask quidam).
The options are narrowing down - are we left with Xine/Gxine? Or
Xfmedia, which does both sound and video, AFAIAT? Don't know if it is
in the repos (I should really pull in a Trisquel installation, if I am
going to be discussing this).
> Also, an FTP client is not necessary for the default installation.
Yet another example of how differently we operate, but - fine by me.
You want me to take it out or leave it in there as a suggestion box?
Yours,
M
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Xine, GXine, and Xfmedia are all in our repos. It appears we have some good choices after all. :)
"Yet another example of how differently we operate, but - fine by me."
The rule I was going with is -- if such an application isn't in the main version Trisquel, it wouldn't belong in the mini version, either.
2010/3/3 Rubén Rodríguez Pérez <name at domain>:
> You are all invited to start expanding this page with pros and cons for
> every entry. You should always take in consideration this ideas:
>
> - Only programs already in the repository are usable. We will not
> import new software for this kind of job.
> - The most used program is most likely the better choice
> - Translations are very important
> - We will only include GTK+ apps
> - Low memory usage is more important than file size
> - We would like to keep the image below the 400MB mark, to allow it to
> be used in 512mb usb thumb drives with some space for persistence data.
> - Usability is a strong requirement. All programs must be easy to use.
> - A known old program is often better than a cool new one.
> - The bleeding edge is not important, we aim to small computers.
I couldn't agree more with this philosophy, and I really appreciate
this concise explanation.
If there is a similar philosophy statement for Trisquel in general
please point me and others to it. It will answer a lot of questions
posted to the list.
My suggestion is to get the netinst image working so that any user can
then make a fully free system however they want- server, mini,
desktop, etc. It might be better to spend time making it easier for
people to make Trisquel into whatever they want rather than going back
and forth on defaults for different versions.
Brian
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I just wanted to say that in the past, I have used a netinst image to install a system. I manage my way around on computers, i'm no guru, but still, a netinstall took me over a day to get up and running fully functional. An install with a gui, an install with a desktop environment which has been tested is on the other hand way better for the end user.
I think anyone is free to do a netinst, but for the sake of simplicity, having a running os preconfigured is just simpler.
Also, the netinst is a problem when it comes to a persistent pendrive boot, whereas the livecd image has been done before and can be done.
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GXine has been added for video.
Also, Xfprint was added because it should have a nice GUI program to handle printers.
Checked apps not in the repository, and from http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/suggestions-trisquel-mini
I removed:
-SIM-IM(not found in repositories)
-Uget download manager(not found in repositories)
-LXtask(not found in repositories)
-Wxcam(not found in repositories)
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I've found some suitable replacements that are in our repos:
-Uget download manager replaced with MultiGet (which also supports FTP, so I removed Filezilla)
-LXtask replaced with Xfce4-taskmanager
-SIM-IM replaced with Gajim
But I can't find a suitable webcam program. Camorama won't work with v4l version 2.
There is no need for a new taskmanager. We already have htop. As for gajim, i think it's already in the list.
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Yeah, I saw HTOP. It's just that I'm not sure a plain terminal-based task manager is best, even if it is the most lightweight. You're also right about Gajim.
sorry double post.
Hello!
My humble suggestions:
. Login Manager: Slim (simple and easy to customize)
. Window Manager/Desktop Env.: Openbox (what else?) + lxpanel/tint2
. Terminal Emulators: xterm, rxvt-unicode
. Text Editor/IDE: Geany+plugins (I love it)
. Connection Manager: wicd
. Office: Abiword, Xpdf
. Internet: Midori, Firefox, Filezilla, Irssi
. File Managers: PCManFM, Midnight Commander
. Multimedia: GPicView, Audacious, gXine (able to read more formats than Totem)
. Archives manager: Xarchiver
. Misc: lxappearance, Conky, Brasero, Nitrogen, gparted
. Theme: like the Gnome version of Trisquel 3.0.1 (beautiful windows decorations !!) but for Openbox
. Usplash: another one with just a little trisquel in the center of the screen and a progression *line*
Maybe another idea: Thunar+Xfce-panel instead of pcmanfm+lxpanel ???
Congratulations for this beautiful and free distro !!!
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