In which Reddit is sure the FSF does nothing
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http://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/rrx8cp/new_year_resolution_joining_the_fsf/
http://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/qxon1z/fsf_fundraiser_take_the_next_step_to_software/
It appears to me the FSF has an image problem. Many see it's sole reason to exist as the same as a religion. The FSF is true, so it must exist, if it did not exist there would be no one speaking the truth in the world, thus in order for there to remain truth in the world the FSF must keep existing.
This reason works good for people who are devoted to the truth, and not very well for people who aren't. People who aren't devoted to the truth want some sort of proof their money is advancing the goals of free software, which the FSF has failed to make clear (otherwise it would not have this image problem who people see as a fringe group who occasionally will write an angry blogpost about something or the other).
How do you think the FSF can turn their image around?
I think it would be easier to take them seriously, in some cases, if they would deal with distros that are registered under as fully free, at the very least are libre.
The issue, of the sneaky software issues regarding breaking backwards compatibility to restrict freedom, is one issue, but even if you throw this away,
PureOS is not free software... unless they are no longer using the vanilla kernel. If anyone has proof, feel free to correct me!
Other problems, though, is they need to be way more vigilant of backdoors, freedom issues, security and privacy issues even by free software, etc that can be worked on, such as laptops, tablets, desktops, single board stuff, then say smartphones which to be honest, serve a specific purpose and without proprietary software, are mostly worthless, whether they have replicant, or any other lineageos base.
To some, this all seems like the FSF is not as serious as they should be.
Also, I think RYF should include any device that is as secure and private as libreboot, even if the intel me is still within and disabled, or something similar to that effect and/or doesn't need any blobs that dial elsewhere or restrict changing your OS.
These things might make some think to themselves, they are just doing this for their own goals.
I disagree on that the FSF/GNU aren't serious, but I do think they need to worry about the stuff I mentioned that are either impossible, way less and focus on stuff that is better.
The only way I will take any of my thoughts back on replicant, is if they can reverse engineer 5G before 6G comes out.
Sounds like it will be impossible at this time, to me anyways.
Also, the whole calling it GNU/Linux and the idea hurd can ever do anything useful in the future, both seem like they won't change the masses.
Basically, be more reasonable in your approach, or things aren't going to go well in the future, eventually, unless the corporations really do something unspeakably stupid...
I hope it doesn't have to come to that.
Aye...
Also, freedom needs to be treated only slightly more important than security/privacy and usability should be the next level.
I very often feel like its the opposite with regard to those issues.
You are all free to disagree on these issues, but, that's my viewpoint.
I would just ask you all to think long and hard about my viewpoint, it might be more common then you think. I think Leah agrees with me on this:
"Also, I think RYF should include any device that is as secure and private as libreboot, even if the intel me is still within and disabled, or something similar to that effect and/or doesn't need any blobs that dial elsewhere or restrict changing your OS."
Leah can correct me if she wants, but yeah, this is what I see as the problem.
One thing that the FSF doesn't do anything about is the corporate takeover of the largest distros. RedHat, Fedora, SuSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Arch - all require you to use IBM's systemd to manage your system - you don't have a choice. Your only option if you don't want to run the internals that IBM is dictating is to run smaller, independent distros like hyperbola and parabola that offer you some degree of free choice.
The latest Debian allows you to use sysvinit.
Though I'm not so sure systemd is worth fighting. So far it has not 'turned evil' and if it does projects like InitWare show it can be forked by a small team.
I don't think the FSF should favor one free software init system over another. As long as systemd is free software, the FSF should stay neutral.
Actually, it dawned on me this morning, that even if systemd, is not that great, its better to be neutral then in full support of it.
That being said, systemd is the only init I meant shouldn't be supported, meaning openrc, runit, s6, etc... are fine imo.
But yeah, being neutral to this situation I suppose is better than being in full support of systemd.
>"I don't think the FSF should favor one free software init system over another. As long as systemd is free software, the FSF should stay neutral."
I don't either. I wasn't saying FSF SHOULD tackle the issue of init freedom. I was lamenting that there is no one that CAN tackle it, other than the independent distros that are offering alternate init systems. I don't think FSF would be a good organization for that task.
People should also tackle libc freedom. All distros take away my freedom by not being compatible with both glibc and musl at the same time. Also package manager freedom. Try using Debian with RPM.
>"People should also tackle libc freedom. All distros take away my freedom by not being compatible with both glibc and musl at the same time.”
Void and Alpine are very nice.
>"Also package manager freedom. Try using Debian with RPM.”
I'm a big fan of Bedrock, using it right now to combine apt and xbps.
Void actually builds packages for both glibc and musl, that's pretty cool. But it doesn't support kernel freedom. I can't use it with Hurd :(
SkedarKing is angry at Void because it no longer supports ssl freedom. It used to default to libressl, but Void devs gave up on it after Gentoo and Alpine dropped libressl and Void was left holding the bag on all libressl development on Linux: https://voidlinux.org/news/2021/02/OpenSSL.html
Can't trust anyone these days. Except for Hyperbola.
I agree with you on the first sentence at least.
The rest, meh...
So, I will thumb you up for the top part at least.
>"The latest Debian allows you to use sysvinit."
You've always been "allowed" to use sysvinit with Debian. If you can figure out how to set it up on your own. And if you don't mind that it will break lots of desktop packages, and even entire desktop environments, and probably fun stuff like networking. Have you tried it? I converted MX to runit and to openrc, and converted antiX to s6. Of course those were already setup to run alternate init systems, and just needed to do a bit of hackery to push them over onto a new system. In each case stuff broke. Usually networking is the first thing to go. If you want KDE and Gnome with sysvinit on Debian, I think you are highly unlikely to have success without a lot of creative hacking.
We all know that you are throwing in the cold topic of init systems in order to further derail this thread and push it over into the Troll Lounge.
Your sly tactics will not work this time, and you will be duly reported. The Toll Lounge is not supposed to be the trash can of the other forums. It is a respected place and its Code shall be applied consistently.
Prepare for imminent deep freezing.
It's
........very
................cold
........................here
Yeah, no, these are my actual opinions. It is your choice what you and others believe, but this to me is what I believe.
I find it ironic you feel the need to report me, given that this is very much what I think. Either way, if you are serious, just know that I am not trolling.
I was actually giving my actual input, if you don't like it and feel the need to report me over this, then you are trying to silence me...
It's kind of like... what?
:/
>"I find it ironic you feel the need to report me"
lanun/Ianun/|anun was actually going to report me, not you. I may have to hire a lawyer again to defend myself before the Troll Lounge Code of Conduct Central Communist Planning Committee (TLCCCPC).
But you've given me an idea for a brilliant new legal defense tactic: "It wasn't me!!! It was SkedarKing!"
Anyway, it was all in fun. We threaten to report each other to nonexistent troll lounge committees quite often. Although, next time I travel to China I may be dismayed to find that these committees are real. And that nadebula is the Chair of each one. The thought is a bit frightening, I must tell you.
All Right, but it very much puzzles me still why I am getting thumbed down so much... it is after all my opinion.
Still silly that you and him threaten to report each other though. ;)
I haven't been privy to know this till you told me, appreciate it! :)
Btw, unrelated, but I heard s6-init is a lightweight replacement for systemd, that is very close to having suppot for almost everything useful systemd does, but with way less issues.
I got no idea, how good it is, never used it, if anyone here has used it recently, let me know.
I am interested in finding out if it does anything sufficiently useful.
:)
Also, I stil think what I said about Replicant above, till there is proof it can be done efficiently, meaning quick upgrades and blob-free.
This below comment I also still hold as
"Also, I think RYF should include any device that is as secure and private as libreboot, even if the intel me is still within and disabled, or something similar to that effect and/or doesn't need any blobs that dial elsewhere or restrict changing your OS."
This of course meaning it has no DRM enabled... ;)
PS, that's not a good legal defense.
xD
But I am sure you are joking lol.
>"Btw, unrelated, but I heard s6-init is a lightweight replacement for systemd, that is very close to having suppot for almost everything useful systemd does, but with way less issues."
>"I got no idea, how good it is, never used it, if anyone here has used it recently, let me know."
I used s6 on Artix where it was unbelievably fast. It was so fast that it seemed that the speed was creating boot problems, as processes seemed to complete before the system was prepared for them. It was quirky enough that I only managed to stay on it for about a month. That was about 2 years ago - I'm quite certain it has matured since then.
I also hacked s6 onto antiX, but the hacks I was using ended up killing networking. So that was just a little Saturday afternoon project, no real time to get used to it.
Oberun is supposed to be the gold standard distro for s6. I've never been able to get Oberun to install for some reason. I try it about once a year - I should try it again soon.
Void has a very full suite of s6 and 66 init management packages. I like Void a lot, I should try to find a how-to this year and get s6 up and running on Void and see how it performs. If it's like the rest of Void, Void+s6 may end up being so fast that the computer will burn a hole through the earth's crust.
>"PS, that's not a good legal defense."
Worked for OJ Simpson - "It wasn't me!!"
That right there is sad...
Oj simpson got away with stuff for a very long time due to this...
Sheesh...
not that he is the worst in this regard, pretty sure we have gone way past this, since then.
>"All Right, but it very much puzzles me still why I am getting thumbed down so much... it is after all my opinion."
Ahhh, you've run into the famous Trisquel Forum Downvoting Karens Brigade (TFDKB). More deserving heroes than yourself have had their posting careers cut short by our whacky Karens.
If I have time, I'll go through and upvote every single one of your posts to about +10 with my Cthulhu bot army - it drives the Karens crazy.
> a brilliant new legal defense tactic: "It wasn't me!!! It was...
Brilliant indeed. We have now amended the freezing procedure codicil to allow anyone already on freeze row to name any other offender to be frozen with.
Downvoting on-duty Code Enforcement Officers (not to mention calling them names) is the one most extreme case of abuse, so your request is hereby granted. I sincerely hope you two get along well, that's a never-ending journey to nowhere, with little entertainment on the way, if any. I suggest you silently discuss the socialist revolution, and how the US government has long been taken over by corporations who keep maniacally calling any other regime communist, probably for lack of words.
>"the US government has long been taken over by corporations who keep maniacally calling any other regime communist"
Sounds like something a communist would say. You've been hanging out with nadebula too much.
>"probably for lack of words"
Words are over-rated. "Gun", "bullets", and a few sex terms are all you really need to know. And the names of the various McDonald's sandwiches.
> You've been hanging out with nadebula too much.
Sure, we've been frozen together for a while because I said he was the one derailing threads into communist vs. bourgeois bickering.
That said, I have a feeling he's been keeping himself busy otherwise: https://book.huihoo.com/free-software-free-society. Pity he decided to leave us archeologists to our preferred hobby, he's been an invaluable resource about treacherous firmware. I have now no doubt I am being spied on up to the secret colour of my very privy red and green socks.
>That said, I have a feeling he's been keeping himself busy otherwise: https://book.huihoo.com/free-software-free-society.
Wow, look at that. But that translation was done in 2016 - is nadebula translating the collected works of RMS now? Including all his online political rantings and his early coding of emacs and gcc?
I'm afraid I can't tell you more on that topic, sorry. I silently swore forward secrecy before the unfreezing process began.
But there is something here: https://github.com/beijinglug/fsfs-zh/releases
> lack of words
I wish to amend my sentence above: sometimes they just call other regimes 'regime'. So that's in fact one more word to their credit. Or is it just a short for 'regimen', and are they in fact complaining about various McDonald's caloric intake in different countries that do not meet their own, non-negotiable standards?
>"I wish to amend my sentence above: sometimes they just call other regimes 'regime'."
Well, we've made progress since the Bush years and the Obama years, when we just called everyone terrorists and sent drones to blow them up. Now we call them communists and "regimes" before we send drones to blow them up.
>"McDonald's caloric intake in different countries that do not meet their own, non-negotiable standards?"
There are two standards - super size, and super-duper size. Occasionally a silly person will order a "small" or "medium" at a McDonald's, but we've indoctrinated the employees to just laugh at them and give them a super size meal anyway.
Any foreign regime that does not follow these standards is obviously a bunch of terrorists.
> just laugh at them and give them a super size meal anyway.
Great standards. My dream job. I shall apply immediately. I've heard there are so many vacancies that work permits have been waived for people from lazy socialist regimes. I guess previous workers went so euphoric about their job that they felt they had to share it in shifts.
I got bored of monomaniacally pressing the freezing button. I shall press the giant burger button instead.
>"I've heard there are so many vacancies that work permits have been waived for people from lazy socialist regimes"
You are probably a terrorist. So we'll put you in charge of security instead of putting you in charge of pushing the giant burger button.
If only the progress from Bush and Obama hadn't mostly gone in the toilet since then...
Agent Orange did a lot to make it worse and Biden's heart sometimes doesn't seem to be into fixing a good majority of the problems.
Meh, I hope we get the extremists out for the forseeable future, so that we can have red and blue again and not different shades of red and a small amount of blue.
This country, is massively far right right now, so far right that helping people has become socialism and communism at the same time, which makes little sense, but hey, it doesn't have to, as well as the "democrats" looking mostly like moderate republicans from before George W Bush's time...
My point being, this country be a mess...
I don't know whether I am laughing, or crying, or both.
Meh...
PS, Mcdonalds and all other fast food and sodas, just is toxic for your body.
Probably more than weed even... and no I don't do drugs. xD
;)
PureOS doesn't use the vanilla kernel; they use Debian's kernel which is completely free.
So, its linux-libre?
Hmm... maybe they changed it since last I looked.
It is not Linux-libre, but the blobs are removed. Unlike Linux-libre, Debian's kernel does load blobs if you install them in /lib/firmware. But still, Debian does a thorough job of removing blobs, and goes a bit farther in removing obfuscated code. Until recently, there were still some blobs in Linux-libre: https://www.fsfla.org/pipermail/linux-libre/2021-August/003439.html. I only found out about them because Debian was removing them all along.
Just for some context, the blob problem in Linux is pretty minor at this point. There are only ~5 blobs that are actually in the kernel.
People should have the right to criticize and be criticized.
Religion does not allow criticism.
If we are to overcome racism or whatever problems there are with whatever, people ought to be allowed to speak their minds without being canceled. I mean, we are speaking about reasonable people who can understand the difference between right and wrong and therefore can change their ways.
There is also the problem, that basic literacy clearly has gone down the tubes.
Depends on what you mean by religon, as I say often...
That being said, if your criticisms are constructive and meant to challenge people to do better/to force them to repent, then the belief of God does in fact promote criticism, but if its just to shame the person/make them suffer, then no...
At least as far as Christianity goes, I assume you include that in "religion"
That being said, there are a huge number of lost souls who think Jesus supports the right wing, look at the gospels of Jesus and you see very quickly, he hated what the pharisees did and they were the quote religious ones...
So... yeah.
Christianity is supposed to be a lifestyle. I really wish the right wing didn't hijack it for their evil purposes...
Smh...
As for basic literacy going down, no kidding!
True statement!
Yes, I should have said dogma does not allow criticism. I am used to Christians who are very dogmatic (specifically Catholics). It can be difficult to challenge a Christian that there is a god.
What has the FSF accomplished in recent years? I can't really think of much besides the distro and RYF certifications, which don't seem to do much to actually advance software freedom.
I am a translator!
I don't know, but at least it contributes to explain what free software is to people willing to hear about it. Who else does that?
That is true and also... very much part of the problem...
:(
Perhaps shift their focus at least partially from moral libre preaching to free software problems and aspirations users have in their lives, that is, free/libre is good and all, but supporting and fostering actual enthusiastic groups of users who are capable of tangibly improving said software is more important, since the free/libre idea without good software and good independent communities will remain vacuous and merely moral. I've been wading through software directories on fsf.org and didn't find any evidence of FSF's vivid interest in cool, inventive, modern free software. It's a lukewarm, apathetic, slapdash approach, lack of competence, outdatedness of everything, which is quite telling - we're talking about supposed software enthusiasts here! The moment you bring up these things, certain free/libre preachers will tell you that you're on the "wrong side" and only understand open source, but not "true" libre approach and therefore can't see past the open source "good software" outlook and grasp the idea of software freedom etc. etc. as if software quality and software freedom don't go hand-in-hand.
I am a translator!
>fostering actual enthusiastic groups of users who are capable of tangibly improving said software is more important, since the free/libre idea without good software and good independent communities will remain vacuous and merely moral.
Apart that I'd replace "more" with "equally", I agree. Perhaps Trisquel is one of those.
>cool, inventive, modern free software
Can you elaborate on what you think is cool, inventive and modern free software? Personally, I find a lot of "old" software extremely cool and inventive.
> the moment you bring up these things, certain free/libre preachers will tell you that you're on the "wrong side" and only understand open source
So far, I only heard "please submit a page" and I am a bit ashamed I still haven't done it.
I think it might be hard to teach an old dog new tricks. FSF does things that go unnoticed. Campaigns, fiscal sponsorship, LibrePlanet, hosting its own bunch of services (Jitsi, forums, website, store (which also needs to have shipping done by humans), perhaps also separate campaigns websites). There's surely more that I am just not aware of.
So, I believe it will be the most beneficial if we just accept the truth that FSF is doing a certain *part* of work that needs to be done and ourselves try to fill the gaps and do the rest. Also, it seems GNU (partially funded by FSF, btw) is more focused on software development than FSF itself
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