ASUS Chromebook C201 now supported in libreboot - ARM CPU
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Chris, this is actually a very good thing that you are campaigning against the FCC's recent policy proposals regarding WiFi. I'm also against it, and have done what little I can in support for the opposition to it. We're on the same page here.
However, calling this "real work" to imply that libreboot is not "real work", just shows once again that your priorities are... questionable, to say the least.
I did sign the bufferbloat document (under my own name), and I submitted a comment to the FCC. Honestly, it hadn't occurred to me to say something about it on libreboot.org or minifree.org, not because I don't care, but because I've been so absorbed lately (I work pretty damn hard). Good point, you've got me there.
I've just added something about it on http://libreboot.org/ and http://minifree.org/
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Great- now lets stop attacking each other. It's stupid and childish.
That isn't the 'real work' I'm referring to. The real work I'd be referring to is getting code released upstream, designing hardware 'from scratch', porting Trisquel to ARM. Useful work might be more appropriate. Reverse engineering work is useful as another example, but I don't necessarily think its the best path either, unless we are left with no other options.
I just think you would have done better to get a GPS devices for instance working over libre laptop. The libre laptop is a harder problem to solve and it is going to require massive amounts of money in addition to significant work within various companies for which you don't have cooperation.
The work you did wasn't insignificant, it's just not worth your time. That effort would have been better spent elsewhere.
There you go again. This is why I hate you, and your company. You are arrogant, you think that your way is right, and that everyone should just submit to your own wishes. You want everything to yourself.
Do you not think that I'm also in contact with the libre distros? I've *met* Mark Weaver and Ruben Rodriguez (of GuixSD and Trisquel, respectively) in person, and have contacted both, asking them about porting GuixSD and Trisquel to ARM.
I honestly don't even see what your problem is. We're providing libre boot firmware (it's in the name. libreboot), which people can actually use. Are you seriously telling me that you oppose this, despite the fact that the FSF had called on such a project to be established, *for years*?
Not worth my time? How did you come to this conclusion? Are you a mind reader? Do you know how I think, or what my plans are?
No! So please stop assuming that you do. It annoys me so much to see you make judgements on libreboot, while having contributed precisely *nothing* to it in all these years.
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1. Libeboot, please keep on supporting older devices, I hate e-waste, that´s the reason I like Libreboot.
2. At this point in time, I think Libreboot is the only viable option for Free Server and free high performance computing (or even distributed computing) Arm just isn´t there jet. (There for I like to read about the next supported Serverboards).
I like both, please don´t fight.
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^ seconded.
Also this thread really fucking needs this right now ->
I recenty baught a Libreboot X200 from Minifree, because I wan't to stop using proprietery software on the long term.
When I baught my old laptop from Thinkpenguin two years ago, I asked if coreboot could run on these laptops. Chris told me about the non-free BIOS that would be hard to replace, but he did not tell me about the ME that is impossible to replace. One or two month later I heard about libreboot and the Thinkpad X60 that Richard Stallman uses. However I still use my old laptop from Thinkpenguin, mostly for reverse engineering of proprietery programs.
Recently I heard about Purism, and I decided that I would never buy a Librem until their Librem gets the Respects Your Freedom hardware product certification. This is impossible with their current design, but it might be possible with the next design if the stop using Intel hardware. There are may other architectures and processor vendors that one can choose instead. Debian supports many of them, including PowerPC and ARM. I think that Trisquel should get ported to ARM and some other architectures, therefore I started porting Trisquel to ARM. There is also a PowerPC notebook project http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/ which claims to respect the users freedom, but without a free distribution this will be impossible.
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Yea- I've talked to Rubén Rodríguez (aka quidam) about porting Trisquel to ARM in the past (maybe 1-3 years ago). It shouldn't be that terribly hard. I'm glad to hear someone is working on it. His main reason for not having done it already is the lack of hardware on the market. I agree with that assessment. We really need a design from the ground up for which we can manufacture units and continue to get new ARM-based RYF'able laptops produced.
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About those designs what about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects and specially http://www.openphoenux.org/ / http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/.
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I've been in direct contact with many the the projects or have been in communications with them via other developers and engineers. I'm mainly referring to laptops and desktops though in regards to Trisquel not having been ported to ARM. Trisquel isn't really a server distribution or an embedded distribution. It's why people are still using Debian within the free software community despite being adamant supporters of the FSF and not-too-happy (about using Debian). Maybe someone could work on a server focused distribution based off Debian that was 100% free and FSF endorsed. That's something I could get behind (looking at you Francis). What would be needed is something secure and updated routinely. It can't become stale from a security perspective.
I have only been reading a little at the start of this thread.
Am I the only one who here the line "Divide and Conquer" in the discussion between Chris and fchmmr? The two best/only freedom respecting laptop providers out there?
STOP WITH THE F-ING WHINING! Scream your hatred in a pillow or something like that to get it out of your system instead of holding it in yourself and again and again get in to these blaming threads to try to get people on your side.
In this extremely f-uped up world that is just getting more crazy every day (Now almost every second more crazy things happend) with TTP, TTIP, internet censorship, cashless, google filtering, spying, hatred filled people, corruption is extreme, world economy falls apart, europe crumbling (soon maybe riots on streets), politicians almost only lying and a lot more.
Think Penguin is a good alternative for modern laptops and more in the store and Minifree a good alternative to fix old laptop. Their is good and bad things with both alternatives. Same as "open source" thinking. Open source is good to attract people closer to freedom but if people in the "open source" camp dont wake up from the "open source deception" they will walk in to a dead end. Trisquel, Think Penguin and Minifree has the same goal but different roads. They are not lost as "open source" followers. Free software users are much more aware of freedom and know what it is about.
If you want to make the world a better place, start with yourself. If you get pissed at someone example they push a button on you is often because they hit a soft spot and the anger that comes is the defense of that emotional scar. Most people use the "blame game" to defend their scars they carry. Many get a active life with work, training because if they stop the pain will come. Some people try to eat to drink their pain away. Others gets passive. Some people have problem with their social life and runs away from it and only live in front of computers.
Yes Im getting a bit deep. This was written fast but I just get pissed when people start to argue when what all parts in the arguing want the same thing but it get destroyed because of this internal arguing. This has happened a lot of times before in many areas and still continue.
Their are forces out there that dont want humanity to strive for harmony, freedom, responsibility, respecting each other. These forces love to infiltrate "their threats" and destroy them within. Free software is one of "their threats".
People who are not in balance with themselves is much easier to manipulate and today so many people is so unbalanced. Just look how people act today and the total crap mass media today produce as entertainment. Todays society is fast developing/declining towards the movie Idiocracy.
Peace out
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I'm done if Francis is done. I try to avoid confrontation where possible... but if you attack me in a lengthy post like this I'm going to respond.
Except,it's actually the other way around. You made the first move. But you're right. Let's stop this. I have better things to do, such as, work on libreboot, and directly undermine your opposition to it in the process.
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No. Your confusing me with Bob. Apparently you and Bob had a conversation on IRC. You emailed me that conversation and I responded. Then you got upset not because of me agreeing with Bob, but because I agreed with the sentiment. I said he was being childish and that I didn't agree with him for the most part. His actions in particular were childish.
I'm not going to intentionally undermine your work and it's sad that you think I am trying to do that now. I just don't think your efforts are worthwhile. Long term I don't think we need coreboot/libreboot. I think you *should* spend time on some other project where your abilities will be better spent.
We have GPS navigation devices for instance that are non-free and I'd *love* to sell one that is free. We don't have the time to work on that though. If you did something I'd be thrilled. I'd stock it and everything. But you can't be going off on us every time I, Bob, or someone else criticizes you/Mini free/libreboot/whatever in some minor way.
Why would I be interested in GPS? I'm not saying that it's unimportant, but it's unrelated to the libreboot project, which is what I'm focusing on. Other people who are knowledgeable about those other areas can focus on them.
I reject your rejection of libreboot. The project *is* worthwhile, and *is* doing amazing things. I'm excited about what will happen in the future, and I hope that people like you will be on board with it sooner or later.
I respond to your slanderous and (often) inaccurate statements about libreboot, to defend its reputation. What you've said so far as that you are against the project's very existence, proving what I said in this regard earlier on (that you want it to disappear). You've also said that coreboot is useless.
You say this, in spite of the fact that coreboot is considered by the FSF to be a high priority project, and that they also give the same consideration to the libreboot project. In spite of, even, the fact that the FSF have people at their office who are knowledgeable about coreboot and maintain coreboot systems there (Ward, their old sysadmin, is even a coreboot developer). In spite of, what's more, the fact that the FSF use libreboot and are actively working with me to promote it and to help it grow.
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I'm not the one making inaccurate statements. I NEVER said I was against libreboot's existence. I just think it's time has come and gone and you could be working on something that will be more useful than libreboot will be in the coming years. If we have other bootloaders that work perfectly fine (unlike with X86) then we don't need libreboot any more (because X86 is dead).
I was merely suggesting that you focus on something that actually will move things forward rather than focusing on a project that will have no useful purposes in the near future. X86 is dead. Libreboot is good for X86. I don't agree that it's good for other architectures. It's fine if that is what you want to work on. Go ahead and work on it. It won't change my opinion of its usefulness though. Ultimately I just think your better off working on some other project at this point rather than try and keep a dying project alive.
I'm aware that the FSF is 'deeply' involved in coreboot/libreboot. That doesn't change anything. I'm glad Ward and others have worked on it. The FSF has been involved *for years*. What is happening now and what was the case years ago are different. You need to distinguish between the two.
If there is a good reason to continue libreboot I'm all ears. However I haven't heard a really great argument for it.
> I'm not the one making inaccurate statements. I NEVER said I was against libreboot's existence.
Except, you've demonstrated it through your actions and your words.
> I just think it's time has come and gone and you could be working on something that will be
> more useful than libreboot will be in the coming years.
I'm working on libreboot, and doing what I can to make it grow. Libreboot is definitely quite useful, IMO.
> If we have other bootloaders that work perfectly fine (unlike with X86) then we don't need libreboot any more (because X86 is dead).
Libreboot supports non-x86 hardware (ARM, Rockchip RK3288 SoC) now, and plans to add more very soon.
> I don't agree that it's good for other architectures.
Yeah, I call BS on that. Also, see what I wrote about integrating u-boot in libreboot. I was serious.
> Ultimately I just think your better off working on some other project at this point
Why do you keep insisting that I move onto another project? You actually know full well that I do most of the work on libreboot, and that I have no intention of ever quitting from it.
Why do you keep insisting that I move onto another project? Because, as previously stated and demonstrated, you want the libreboot project to disappear.
> I'm aware that the FSF is 'deeply' involved in coreboot/libreboot. That doesn't change anything.
I'm pretty sure it does mean a lot, but OK.
> If there is a good reason to continue libreboot I'm all ears. However I haven't heard a really great argument for it.
You've heard plenty of excellent arguments, but since you're hostile to it you want to try and discredit it as much as possible, hence statements like this.
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> I'm working on libreboot, and doing what I can to make it grow. Libreboot is
> definitely quite useful, IMO.
Maybe instead of us arguing you could help me to see exactly what it is you see. For instance you see a future for libreboot. Why should I care about it in an ARM/other architecture world? I've been convinced by others it doesn't matter. Maybe I/they are wrong.
> Yeah, I call BS on that. Also, see what I wrote about integrating u-boot in libreboot. I was serious.
Rather than call BS why don't you tell me what it is you see. Why did you incorporate u-boot into libreboot? Why not just use u-boot? This would be a more intelligent way to get me agreeing with you (and others for that matter). At least those who understand some of the lingo.
> Why do you keep insisting that I move onto another project?
> You actually know full well that I do most of the work on libreboot,
> and that I have no intention of ever quitting from it.
Maybe because I'm not seeing whatever it is your seeing. I'm looking at everything from a different angle. I don't see the work your doing as being valuable going forward (on ARM and with other architectures). It's only valuable from my perspective right now. Not down the road where we are headed.
I've worked on dozens of different projects never thinking I'd be working on the same project years from now. Maybe similar projects- but not the same project.
Don't you want to 'succeed' with libreboot and move on?
I think we solved the bootloader problem and as such it's time to move onto other projects. Simply adding other bootloaders into libreboot doesn't seem to me to have much if any real value. Maybe it does- but I'm not seeing it so if you want me to see it you need to explain it.
> You've heard plenty of excellent arguments, but since you're hostile to
> it you want to try and discredit it as much as possible, hence statements like this.
Please point me to these excellent arguments. I've heard one or two people state arguments here. I don't believe you stated any though. Not here anyway and assuming I've seen them elsewhere is presuming a lot. I'm not deeply involved in libreboot development. I don't know what your working on or why. u-boot integration? Protein OS integration? What value does that have?
Others have said here:
1. older hardware
OK- maybe- I don't really see significant value in this as the hardware will become the equivalent of a 386 today in a few years.
2. server hardware
OK- maybe- I still don't really see significant value in this in a few years either as it'll again be the equivalent of a 386.
ARM and other architectures is quickly overtaking X86. It's still a little difficult to see so I understand why people would make the above arguments. However we as technical individuals should see why X86 is not the ideal direction to head as far as free software hardware is concerned. I guess on that point you agree, but not on the fact we don't need libreboot for ARM.
As i did write I get pissed when two parts are fighting and have the potential of destroying them self because of..... what I see is something small. It seems to be more under the surface then the text I have been reading here. In fights people go in defense and is attacking and often is hiding what they did or said wrong. In a fight you have to beat your opponent. Im maybe wrong but for me the hardest thing them Im in a argument is to come clean and say "I said this because something in me wanted to hurt you..." or "That was a lie i consciously said" or "I twisted the facts to win" or whatever. People believe its a sign of weakness but I think it is stronger. As saying "i'm a drug addict and I need help because I cant get out of it by my self" or continue using drugs.
Think Penguin is great for people who want a store with new hardware and people to replace proprietary hardware as wifi or buy a printer that dont need proprietary software to work.
Minifree is great because it is funding the development of Libreboot. Many people have seen the news of FSF certified laptops and got their eyes open and now see the difference between open source and free software.
As you say Libreboot is a dead end on the x86 platform but now it is starting to get in to ARM. I see Libreboot as a good foundation. For most people over 5 year old laptop maybe dont is so tempting but their Think Penguin comes in the picture, and with lot better performance. Pros and cons with both alternatives.
Both you two are doing a great job and you are showing the way and giving people choice. I give you big thumbs up. Think Penguin or Minifree isnt the libre answer _right now_ but you two are walking different roads but they lead to the same goal. What will popup around next corner on your roads? Maybe Libreboot have inspired someone creating a new computer that is 100% libre running Libreboot that Think Penguin can sell? The future will tell.
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Thanks for putting up with the fighting words!
There is probably truth in what you are saying. I'm disgusted by it all and see no good reason to have had any of this conversation at all. It's a bunch of hoop la. It makes no meaningful difference what-so-ever. Francis will go on his way and do what he thinks is best and the rest of us will go on our way and do what we think is best.
I do understand the line of thinking and points being argued and the problem is nothing is going to be perfect. There are a lot of things we could do better/differently/improve on. All I can say is we are working on them. I don't necessarily think we can solve them all or it would even do us any good to solve some of them. We rely on upstream distributions for instance to package the majority of software. If we could actually tell people to not use upstream software projects and they revert back to Microsoft Windows Trisquel would be dead because as Canonical would go out of business. At the same time people who don't care about freedom are hurting our community as it make sit more difficult to convince manufacturers to release code.
In nay event it is what it is. Life moves on.
> Francis will go on his way and do what he thinks is best and the rest of us will go on our way and do what we think is best.
Aside from comments about distros (advice which I also took from you, and others), savewifi.org and one or two minor points, this is the only thing you've said in this thread that actually makes sense. And I agree. It's better than we just do things our own way, instead of arguing about it. The only reason I respond in this thread, is because you keep spreading false information and FUD about the libreboot project (and the coreboot project), which I take personally because I'm heavily involved with both. I will defend both.
> There are a lot of things we could do better/differently/improve on
And once again, I'll say that you've accomplished precisely nothing in the area that libreboot works on, regardless of anything you've said. And, once again, you sell proprietary systems (non-free BIOS) while preaching about free hardware, making you a hypocrite. You're selling the idea of a perfect utopia which does not yet exist, which you haven't delivered, while libreboot is providing something real that people can actually use (and I would never sell anything that had a proprietary BIOS in it. The thought actually makes me feel ill). That's the difference between me and you. Who are people going to take more seriously?
What you're actually saying is correct; we need to be in control of the manufacturing process, and we need to design everything ourselves. That's not the issue here. The issue is that you are preaching hypocritically about it, saying one thing and doing another.
Life does indeed move on, and I intend to make the most of it. Libreboot plays a big part in that. I work on it every day, founded the project (on very limited resources) and respond very sharply to hostility against it, especially when that hostility is within the very community that I'm a part of.
If you agree to drop this, I will too. Otherwise, I will keep responding to your nonsense.
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> I'll say that you've accomplished precisely nothing in the area that libreboot works on,
I never claimed we accomplished anything in the area libreboot works on. What on earth makes you think I was suggesting that? Our approach was completely different. We *LOOKED* into that approached back in 2009 and concluded it wasn't the right direction to take it. It's a non-trivial task to port coreboot. The better approach was to build up the financial resources by working on *other* smaller projects. Which is exactly what we did. More recently we did start working on a laptop that would be better from a freedom angle. However it's still a work in progress.
> , while libreboot is providing something real that people can actually use (
We do provide *real* product that is more free than the systems you sell. They just aren't laptops. Yet.
> while libreboot is providing something real that people can actually use (and I would never
> sell anything that had a proprietary BIOS in it. The thought actually makes me feel ill).
Let me get this straight. So your not OK with a non-free BIOS but you are still OK with non-free firmware elsewhere on the system? How is this not hypocritical? You didn't even bother to remove the winmodems from the systems and there are still proprietary pieces in the hard disk controllers and elsewhere.
There are degrees of what is possible and what we will all accept. You started later and your line is slightly different, but it's still a line.
We started earlier the line then was just a system that worked with Trisquel- our goal to ship 100% free systems would take longer, but it would be a reliable road with a longer term chance of success.
> libreboot plays a big part in that. I work on it every day, founded the project (on very limited resources
I understand that and I'm sorry that you took my criticisms as an attack on you and libreboot. They were not.
I also have worked very hard for a lot longer on these same issues. I also started out with zero budget. I worked two full time jobs outside of the work I did on ThinkPenguin to get it off the ground. It took 3 years. I did it though. I don't know how much time or how many jobs you have outside of mini free- but I do know how hard I worked and how hard I still work to solve these problems. And at the end of the day I'm not even doing the stuff that I'd like to do. Which is work on the core technical side of solving these problems. I decided long ago that it was a business/financial issue that was more of a problem to solve than a technical one. We have lots of technical people who can work on projects like libreboot- but we don't have people raising the funds to cover the costs of those who are doing it. Which was a big priority for me.
Ok, I like this response, overall. Feeling better now. I can work with this. Progress.
People do things that are sometimes not ideal, and conflicts occur. It happens. To respond to some of your points:
> I never claimed we accomplished anything in the area libreboot works on.
> What on earth makes you think I was suggesting that?
You weren't suggesting that. I merely pointed out that you criticize a project for which you do not contribute to.
> Our approach was completely different. We *LOOKED* into that approached back in 2009 and concluded it wasn't the right direction to take it.
I do not object to this, in fact. You made your decision, as anyone else would. I took the opposite approach, choosing to work with the coreboot project and making the best out of it. I can say that we've had some pretty decent successes (and failures, too) within the libreboot project.
My general attitude is that we should just keep trying, doing whatever we can, even if it's not perfect. From my own perspective, the message is more important than the work itself. In libreboot, we have the message of not compromising, and we work hard to free as much hardware as possible. We make it our stated goal to bring about a world with entirely free software; free boot firmware is fundamental in that. Libreboot is being reviewed for entry as a component of the GNU system, and it's nearly there. I've had to stall it for a while, but it will be done. Why? Again, it's about the message.
You're actually right, to a point: the x86 hardware that we focussed on (thinkpads) were and are a dead-end. I've never claimed that they are long-term. I sell these systems on Minifree. The money that I make is used to fund future work. I'm currently paying for development work (upstreaming) on a new server board, for instance. A public release will be made, sooner or later.
I look at things differently. We don't wait to create a perfect situation; what we're doing is "putting our foot in the door", so to speak. It actually does work. The idea is, that by not giving up, and continuing to work on the project (even if it seems hopeless), we inspire others to get involved and to do the same thing.
It may be that we inspire people to directly to contribute to libreboot. They may instead contribute to coreboot, and we re-use that in libreboot. They may even contribute to projects unrelated to coreboot (such as u-boot), while still working towards free hardware solutions. The result is the same. We're setting a good example, and not giving up on the work. We keep pressing forward, stubbornly (stubbornness is the most important part. RMS was stubborn when he founded the GNU project, and he never stopped. At the time, it seemed hopeless and everyone said that it would fail; similar to what you're currently saying with regards to the message that you put out about the libreboot project).
Principles, stubbornness, and above all, not compromising. The actual technical work is less important, as is the approach, but we also try to be as efficient as possible, and we think about ways in which to push the project forward. We do have long-term plans for the project.
What you're saying is that the libreboot project could die at one point, and stop running. You're missing something here, and it's why you don't get it. It's irrelevant! There may come a point when we have to buckle down for a while, and re-think. But even at that point, we won't stop. Libreboot could stop for a year, and then pick up again.
This may occur. I'm doing everything that I can to prevent that from occurring, but it's a possibility. So be it.
In the words of Richard Stallman: surrender is futile.
> It's a non-trivial task to port coreboot. The better approach was to build up the financial resources by working on *other* smaller projects.
> Which is exactly what we did. More recently we did start working on a laptop that would be better from a freedom angle. However it's still a work in progress.
I'm a big fan of the work that you do do. I'm not against any of it (libreCMC, for instance, is an amazing project. I have a libreCMC router myself, believe it or not)
> We do provide *real* product that is more free than the systems you sell. They just aren't laptops. Yet.
I'm not disputing that. If you do actually put out laptops (or other general purpose computers) that are libre, I'll tell people about it. I told a lot of people about Novena, and backed that project, because I thought it was amazing what they were doing.
> Let me get this straight. So your not OK with a non-free BIOS but you are still OK with non-free firmware elsewhere on the system?
I'm not OK with non-free software of any kind. I also document those other components, in the libreboot FAQ:
http://libreboot.org/faq/#otherfirmware
> How is this not hypocritical? You didn't even bother to remove the winmodems from the systems and there are still proprietary pieces in the hard disk controllers and elsewhere.
It's not hypocritical, because I don't criticize others for not doing anything about it. I'm also honest about it when asked. I even criticize the librebooted ThinkPads that I sell, on my own website, based on this very issue! See http://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html#ec and http://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html#microcode
Regarding winmodems: only some X200 laptops even have this. Many don't. Most people don't even use dialup modems, or even know what it is. The FSF were willing to ignore it, for this reason. Personally, I think it's a non-issue. The vast majority of people use WiFi or ethernet.
I talked to you about this at libreplanet, saying that dialup is irrelevant and not worth thinking about. You disagreed, saying that some people still use it. Keyword: some. The overall point is that we're providing a system that does respect the user's freedom (free BIOS replacement, free OS, free drivers, etc). Context is everything.
> There are degrees of what is possible and what we will all accept. You started later and your line is slightly different, but it's still a line.
Indeed, I came quite late to the scene (during 2013). I was previously thinking about the BIOS issue, but didn't see much opportunity. Then I started working on coreboot anyway (and founded the libreboot project), learning what I could. I've grown my skills a lot, in the last 2 years.
> We started earlier the line then was just a system that worked with Trisquel- our goal to ship 100% free systems would take longer
> but it would be a reliable road with a longer term chance of success.
There were also efforts back before ThinkPenguin even started. The Lemote Yeeloong was an example (the actual hardware run was small, and they later compromised by adding hardware that required blobs). The OLPC was also another example (which failed for similar reasons, and required blobs for WiFi afaik).
> I understand that and I'm sorry that you took my criticisms as an attack on you and libreboot. They were not.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love criticism. I thrive on criticism. I used to get into arguments with the coreboot project all the time, when the libreboot project first started. I still do, with one or two of them, but I've learned how to handle them over the years.
(and those arguments were way more intense than the one we've been having in this forum thread)
> I also have worked very hard for a lot longer on these same issues. I also started out with zero budget.
> I worked two full time jobs outside of the work I did on ThinkPenguin to get it off the ground. It took 3 years.
This is a common ground that we share, so that we understand each other. I like that.
> I did it though. I don't know how much time or how many jobs you have outside of mini free- but I do know how
> hard I worked and how hard I still work to solve these problems. And at the end of the day I'm not even doing
> the stuff that I'd like to do.
More common ground. There are a lot of things that I'd like to do (in libreboot), which we're years away from at the moment.
> Which is work on the core technical side of solving these problems. I decided
> long ago that it was a business/financial issue that was more of a problem to solve than a technical one.
We think alike, in this regard.
We
> have lots of technical people who can work on projects like libreboot- but we don't have people raising the
> funds to cover the costs of those who are doing it. Which was a big priority for me.
Ditto.
But also the message, the principles, the stubbornness. I also think we share common ground here, too. You do seem to be extremely dedicated.
Look, I'm starting to like you again. I get over grudges pretty quickly, especially when talking about it. Sometimes that means conflict. This... heated... exchange between us has demonstrated to me that we actually do think alike in many ways, and there are areas for common ground.
I met you and Bob at libreplanet this year, and we also spoke with each other a few times. We weren't exacly "friends", but we were civil with each other at least. I observed you and Bob interacting with others, when we were at the FSF office, and you do seem like good people. I had the same impression throughout that weekend, whenever I walked past you and heard/saw you talking to people in the MIT building during both days of the conference.
I'm a very rational person, in general. I don't think that you're bad people (and never have). The problems I had with you were personal, but I still thought that you were good people otherwise. I even tried to be friendly with Bob (libreCMC maintainer).
You do actually do a lot of good things. LibreCMC, wifi firmware (working with manufacturers to get src) and others. The fact that you're here and have stuck around for so long shows that you do care, and I never disputed this in fact. You've also hinted at work to get hardware manufactured with u-boot, fully freedom respecting. I think this is a good thing. I'd also be willing to incorporate that into libreboot, and promote it, believe it or not. Regardless of what I might think (or rather, have thought) about you, my goal is to get free hardware into the hands of more people. That could be me providing it, or someone else. The end result is the same: my goal is being met, and that makes me happy.
You also donate quite a lot to the Trisquel project, which is amazing. I didn't do it for a long time, because I actually couldn't afford it. I was running on *very* strict resources for a long time, when getting libreboot and Gluglug (now Minifree) off the ground, but I'm now in a position to do so. I've increased my donations to the FSF, and started donating to other (non-software, non-computing related) causes that I support in principle.
Let's agree to drop this, for real, and just work on our projects and push things forward in our own way. Who knows, we could end up working with each other in the future, if the terms are right, and it's beneficial to both of us and (more importantly) to the movement. We've both wasted a lot of time in the last few days (yes, this dispute has been going on for several days ;)
I'm neutral now.
Seriously, we're both stupid as hell.
I am a member!
> n libreboot, we have the message of not compromising, and we work hard to free as much hardware as possible.
See- that's something I can support too! I'm not against libreboot's existence. I agree that taking a firm stance is often a good thing. The more people who do that the better. I'm not sure it helped to do that *yet* in this case as we were already moving in the right direction and had hardware that would be mostly free- scratch that- more free than the status quo. However given it does exist (thanks to you) I respect the position. It actually is good to see people buying your systems regardless of what my objections are to Lenovo. It shows that there are people willing to go out on the limb and buy hardware that is less powerful/capable/etc.
> I look at things differently. We don't wait to create a perfect situation;
I think your misunderstanding what I've suggested. I've never said to not do nothing or wait until things are perfect. Everybody has to start somewhere. I was merely suggesting a more efficient approach to get to where you want to go by focusing on other components that lead to the same place. I want and I think we both want all our devices to be running 100% free software. Well- there are lots of devices to pick for which we don't have any good options. Focusing on them builds up financial resources while solving other non-free software hardware problems. I don't see a need for libreboot where we are going because there already exists other free bootloaders. I didn't bother focusing on coreboot in 2009 because it would be an uphill battle more easily won once the resources exists to win it. Otherwise we'd always be two steps behind. I don't want to always be two steps behind. I want to eventually get to a point where we are two steps ahead of everybody else (in the non-free world).
> stubbornness is the most important part.
haha- yea' we're both being stuburn.
> RMS was stubborn when he founded the GNU project,
He's the most stubborn of us all.
> The actual technical work is less important, as is the approach,
The technical work might be, but I don't think the approach is. The approach matters because depending on which approach you take it'll take longer to get where you are going (a completely free world).
> What you're saying is that the libreboot project could die at one point, and stop running. You're missing something here, and it's why you don't get it. It's irrelevant!
I get that your saying sticking to your guns is more important. I get that and I respect that. It's just not necessary to only stick to your guns. You can have a better road map and still stick to your guns.
> Seriously, we're both stupid as hell.
I agree.
I don't know what changed or why- but I'm glad. Please have more good days!
We all have bad days... but... it's a real time waster when we argue. I'll try not to say things to upset you. We're all just looking at all this from different angles and it's not hard to misunderstand each other. Or for that matter remember something slightly differently.
I hope everybody is happy now! This feud is over (I think?).
> I don't see a need for libreboot where we are going because there already exists other free bootloaders.
Of course, this is your perspective, based on the assumption that libreboot only integrates for coreboot. The actual build system in libreboot is quite flexible. We've discussed in the past, within the project, the possibility of integrating other projects besides coreboot; u-boot is one such project that we discussed.
In my mind, there's absolutely no good reason why libreboot can't target u-boot (most ARM hardware uses u-boot, not coreboot) and coreboot (lots of x86 hardware, some ARM hardware). In fact, this discussion has made me want to re-visit this, especially after considering that most of ARM uses u-boot.
Fun fact about coreboot ARM support; it was actually derived originally from u-boot, at least on the Chromebooks. U-boot sounds like "U-Boat", German submarines used during WWII. A common explosive that the British used to sink U-Boats was called a "depth charge", an explosive dropped into the water, at the precise moment calculated to explode and sink the target U-Boat. A lot of U-Boats were sunk.
So coreboot assimilated U-Boot, for adding ARM support. U-Boot sunk, taken over instead by coreboot. Guess what Google calls their default payload (coreboot only does hw init, then jumps to a payload which boots the OS) for coreboot on ARM chromebooks?
Depthcharge!
> The technical work might be, but I don't think the approach is.
> The approach matters because depending on which approach you take it'll
> take longer to get where you are going (a completely free world).
We would like to improve our approach and our appeal to the public, so as to push the project forward faster.
> I get that your saying sticking to your guns is more important. I get that and I respect that.
> It's just not necessary to only stick to your guns. You can have a better road map and still stick to your guns.
We'll get behind any project that we think is beneficial, and incorporate that (or otherwise promote it).
We improve all the time. To me, having more contributors (full time developers) is the answer, and that's hard in any project. But we also need to change the landscape with manufacturers, chip makers and so on. That's *hard*, and will likely take many years, if it even happens.
> I don't know what changed or why- but I'm glad. Please have more good days!
A combination of self-reflection, and comparing to similar situations that I've observed in the past.
Likewise, I hope that you continue your work.
> We all have bad days... but... it's a real time waster when we argue.
> I'll try not to say things to upset you. We're all just looking at all this from different angles
> and it's not hard to misunderstand each other. Or for that matter remember something slightly differently.
I won't say that you were faultless in all of this, but neither was I. We both kind of messed up a bit, didn't we?
> I hope everybody is happy now! This feud is over (I think?).
Yep. It's all fine now.
These public discussions are very destructive, both Chris and Francis are two of the most recognized people in the hardware field of the free software movement. So I would recommend both of them to save those accusations to themselves, and attack each other via email. Constructive discussions, however, are welcome. If you don't want to work together, that's fine too, no one will force you, and maybe it's better that way, competition, which is lacking in this business for obvious reasons, IS contructive.
OFFTOPIC:
The world has been fucked up since the dawn of civilizations, only new f'd up things have risen and some old ones have fallen. I don't agree with this distopian view of the world and that alarmism that has been contributing to some some of those things that you've refered(like spying and hatred). If we want the world to get better, we must work to accomplish that, both Chris and Francis are doing that, but this kind of fights only weaken their companies and in part, the free software movement.
To be honest, i never quite understood the big relevance of think penguin.
It's great to have a shop we can recommend to non-technical people if they want to buy a system that is capable of running trisquel, but for me personally, it's easy to find a system like that a lot cheaper somewhere around here.
With the gluglug laptops, things are a lot different; you can't get them easily and the process of flashing your bios on your own is a difficult one.
In another thread about video games, i heard chris raising his voice against the sole uttering of proprietary games and I found it hypocritical because he is selling systems with proprietary software while preachering the opposite.
Besides, I never understood why people say "thank you" for work people are doing _commercially_ on the free software front.
No doubt, it's a good thing that there are people doing it, but since they don't do it for free, I don't understand why I should say thank you for not doing unethical business.
They contribute to something important and they do it in an ethical way, but the same holds for the guys who are building the streets in my neighbourhood. I'm glad that they do it, but they do it for cash.
Especially when it comes to commercial selling of free software related products, like in any other business, the merchant should be the one saying thank you to the costumers.
That said, I think it's a natural reaction of chris to be against a competitor who has a superior feature and snatches away costumers.
However, the way he is doing it is to obvious and not very smart.
If he decided to cooperate for the sake of free software though it may be not the best way for earning cash, _that_ would be something i will say "thank you" for.
+1
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> With the gluglug laptops, things are a lot different; you can't get them easily
> and the process of flashing your bios on your own is a difficult one.
This really depends on what you are looking for, where you live, and your technical ability. The reason you can get *any* USB N adapters for example that work with 100% free software systems is because of the work we did. So to suggest we're irrelevant is to overlook all the work we've done, the money we've poured into various projects, etc.
We also have routers that are non-trivial to flash as well. There are other projects we're currently working on that can't be done without substantial amounts of money and time (designing laptops 'from scratch') for example as well. There will come a time when coreboot developer's can't port coreboot to newer models. It's already here in fact. At that point libreboot will be no more. At least its usefulness will be no more as we already have other bootloaders for other architectures. To continue libreboot is a duplication of effort. In fact all of mini free is largely a duplication of effort.
> ems with proprietary software while preachering the opposite.
You have to understand the reason we do this. You preach freedom too, but you use non-free software too don't you? If you don't then how is it your making a comment on this form right now? Even the Lenovo laptops with libreboot are not 100% free. We've got hard disks with non-free pieces and even Francis was shipping systems with win modems in them. I do believe he said he'd stop doing that (which is good). But apparently overlooked.
The reason we ship with distributions containing non-free pieces to many users has to do with the fact Trisquel is more difficult for people to adopt. It is easier than Parabola GNU/Linux-libre, but still too challenging for the average user on Microsoft Windows. Despite my deep passion for free software and disproportionate amount of time in this community it doesn't represent what the majority of people are competent enough or able to do right now.
I've always seen Trisquel as important because without it less technical users would have no good easy to use free options once they get past the "linux is hard" mind set. Those who value there freedom most (beyond just a 'it works better' understanding) and are willing to take the time and energy to move to it can.
I also want to point out *WE TRIED TO WORK WITH FRANCIS*. Suggesting otherwise is just buying into Fracnis's victimization story.
This might appear to be unrelated, but in order to understand it, one
must gather the pieces laid around this topic...
Anyaway, there are various ways to help other achieve software freedom,
and some people are more resistant on using free software than others.
But we as free software supporters must avoid installing or recommending
non-free software for those who are slowly going towards software
freedom, because this undermines our activism.
But then, there comes the question: "What can we do? Besides how can we
overcome the assumption that most people have against free software?"...
To deal with this I would suggest that you offer to our mates the
following options:
* The slow method: Where THEY'll chose which operating system they want
to use (they can even chose to continue using what they're using), and
if it's non-free software, then you MUST tell them that you'll be unable
to help, teach, recommend/suggest them that non-free software, even for
INSTALLATION of the operating system. The same is valid for other
non-free software. However, if the software for which they need help or
recommendation for is free software then you'll have to help them.
Besides, you MUST make it clear to your mate that both must share
experiences so as to keep in contact with each other, and that
eventually, both must move a step towards more software freedom, and the
cycle keeps repeating from here on;
* The subtle method: Where YOU'll chose a free operating system based on
a detailed description made by your mate regarding what he wants/expects
most from his computer. The other considerations from the slow method
also apply here.
Just to clarify, I like Libreboot X200 and all ThinkPenguin
RYF-certified products. Keep up the good work. :D
I am a member!
Thanks!
Yea- it's a debate worth having. I'm of the opinion if they're willing to head toward free software it shouldn't matter too terribly much.
I'm personally going to continue avoiding Google, Lenovo, and other similar products even if I'm not perfect. It's hard. Real hard. It's like avoiding a tracker (ie cell phone/mobile phone). They are *really* hard to ditch.
I've moved away from some of the devices and products that I don't like on privacy and/or ethical grounds (Google, Intel, Lenovo, etc). I'm guilty of having had a Lenovo for example. It was in the 'before time' for me, but none-the-less. I also have another little device. It doesn't run Google's software or anything like that, but.. it's sadly something I still posses.
I actually fairly recently stopped using a piece of software that has been extremely difficult to get off (personally). It's actually something that even others like Rubén use or I've caught using anyway. Bob did stop using it.. but he has other guilty pleasures. Anyway- as do we all. I even have some dirt on RMS. But I'll keep the dirt to myself. Nobody is perfect and I try to avoid putting people down.
"You have to understand the reason we do this. You preach freedom too, but you use non-free software too don't you?"
The point is: how does someone "preach freedom"?
Telling people to value freedom is one thing, criticizing others for making compromises while doing the very same thing, that's what I don't like.
Many people here in this forum here claim to be hardcore-uptight when it comes to freedom and think they have the right to blame other people for making compromises.
Well, guess what. I'm going to say something many people here don't want to here:
In this community _nobody_ is completely uptight about freedom and _everybody_ is making compromises.
I know one person who is really uptight about freedom, even more uptight than rms:
it is my grandma. She is not using _any_ computer or digital device whatsoever, and there are lots of people in this world who do - not because they value freedom, but for other reasons. Most of them don't do it because they want to. They are just poor - think if the people living in africa. I don't want to change places with them.
I heard people here suggesting others to quit their university career because they were forced to make a compromise.
Like: "Using a pc with non-free blobs like I do, that's ok, but using this other piece of nonfree software for the sake of your education ... rather leave this university and get a job in a factory!"
"As free as possible" is not thinkpenguin, it's not gluglug, it's not lemote. It is: no pc. And that's possible.
And even if people don't want to utter this truth, it is and was always the truth.
We all make compromises, and we should not look down on others just because they make more compromises than we do.
Everybody has a different threshold, and that's fine.
The important thing is: we should be concious about freedom, we should care about the issue, we should try to stay as free as -for us personally- acceptable, we should always strive for a solution that is more free and at the same time fulfills our needs.
I don't criticize you for your business, Chris. I criticize you for your way of criticizing others for their doings.
I am a translator!
Just wanted to say that I have a huge respect for Francis Rowe's work. What he's been doing with libreboot and glug/minifree is in my view extremely important, I would say vital. As a matter of fact I gave him my vote as fs mug of the year. x_x
peace!
Without Francis and Libreboot, we have no libre/free BIOS.
Libreboot it is a strong step for Free Software.
Without Libreboot, we must to buy Lemote Yeeloong laptops with MIPS. And once I tryed to buy this laptop and it is impossible today. No more stock today. I think that Lemote company is dead. And it is a very very obsolete and incompatible hardware.
I am a member!
It is. But it is an exaggeration to say we need libreboot. We have uboot and other free bootloaders that will be just fine once we move to ARM and other architectures.
These bootloaders are already in use on other RYF devices like ThinkPenguin routers.
There is value in libreboot right now. It is less important going forward.
You're right, but all computer's hardware and software is for x86-x64, and Francis did the first step for it. Is there some other way to use some computer with ARM, free bios, and all libre GNU distros?
I think that people want to use hardware of today and software of today, not unsupported hardware of the future.
Yes, you're right, but routers and similar devices are another type of computers, you can't install a GNU+Linux+XFCE and use this OS with any package from Synaptic. Only 4-32mb of flash and 16-64mb of ram.
A computer, is like my home, and proprietary bios disturbs me, I don't like secrets in my home, and I don't want secret backd00rs or secret rooms (as example).
Yes, I can trust ThinkPenguin RYF hardware and this is a great idea. But I can't do so with any proprietary bios.
I am a member!
> You're right, but all computer's hardware and software is for x86-x64,
> and Francis did the first step for it.
Thanks to other projects it's largely a trivial effort to build a distribution like Trisquel for ARM. This isn't to say it doesn't take time and effort too, but it is something we already know we can do, and is despite that still very important.
The bigger problems are free'ing various bits of code. If we can free the bootloader of an ARM machine which can be easy in many cases then we don't need libreboot. Bob (he works on libreCMC/libreWRT) has done it dozens of times. He's been doing it a very long time too.
It's great Francis free'd coreboot (for some models where this was possible). Most of the hard work was done already (the porting) except for one model which he had docs on (that made it easy relative to had he needed to reverse engineer it).
The reason Francis went with Lenovo is because he had no other better options. The work was largely done by the coreboot developers. They had other parties which financed these efforts and each of them was significant.
We don't build librecmc for routers for which the work isn't mostly done either- so don't make the assumption that I'm criticising or writing off the work of Francis. I'm merely speaking frankly.
Now all free'ing of coreboot code has a limited impact in the larger scheme of things for a variety of reasons including the limited number of machines which can be refurbished compared to manufacturing machines. The later can scale up. The former can't. If we want to see progress then we need to focus on the efforts which will let us scale up. If all we want to do is have a machine today that is more free- then fine. libreboot will work. It's a bit selfish and short-sighted- but hey- to each his own.
> Yes, I can trust ThinkPenguin RYF hardware and this is a great idea.
> But I can't do so with any proprietary bios.
If it is RYF then in theory it shouldn't have any proprietary blobs. In practice that isn't entire the case, but none-the-less. There are proprietary pieces in hard disk controllers and the FSF still RYF'd Francis's laptops as an example.
Even if we can't currently produce a 100% free PC it isn't because we aren't trying. It's just something that takes time to do it right. And we clearly ran out of time primarily because of Francis. Which is fine. I can stand the heat. Not everybody can. But I'm generally a pretty cool, calm, and collective kinda guy. I try not to let things get to me.
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> You're right, but all computer's hardware and software is for x86-x64,
This is wrong, many software is ported to ARM or even other Architectures.
As far as I understand, as long as the hardware uses the same standard, they should be compatible. Except when the CPU is too different, e.g. Emotion Engine from PS2.
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I'm not the one who said that and would agree with your general assessment. Generally you can build the same software for ARM as you can for X86. It's just a matter of building it for the architecture. I'm sure someone can find an exception to this as there are bits of code tied to certain chips/architectures... but we're speaking generally here. The problem is usually within the context of non-free software where it becomes more difficult. Obviously that isn't so much of an issue when we only care about free software.
I do wonder what Libreboot has to do with ARM computers. As far as I know, the OpenPandora has libre initialization software. At the very least, no one has ever mentioned it having a blob in that area, even though many saw fit to mention the proprietary nub firmware. That's from 5 years ago, and this project never even intended to make a device that can work with entirely libre software. The same goes for the upcoming successor of the OpenPandora. Am I missing something here? It looks on the surface to me like libre initialization software isn't a particular problem for ARM.
And PowerPC?
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It's not a problem. At least not one where we need libreboot. We have uboot working on dozens of devices just fine. However there are many devices which don't have a free version of uboot or it's violating licenses. However if we design a laptop 'from scratch' then this problem goes away.
We've recently free'd a bootloader for one upcoming router for example. It's important to have free bootloaders and it's important to work on such projects. However it's not something that is as important to the future of free hardware as it was yesterday when all we had were X86 systems. The reason for that is we already have for other architectures free bootloaders. It's mainly X86 that was the big problem.
This is why I've stated you need to distinguish between yesterday and tomorrow. It was a lot more important to free a BIOS yesterday than it is today. Today we can't utilize a free BIOS because of digital restrictions on all modern X86 systems. However we can move to ARM as ARM grows up and other architectures. These other architectures are still young, slow, or have other problems similar to what we're seeing with modern X86 (non-free graphics). However we have a better road to take going in this direction. The chances of succeeding are much higher. We have people who are working with us within some of these companies as well as market competition which is changing things (surprisingly) it seems for the better.
Anyway so, back onto the rk3288 topic.
dimkr on the #libreboot freenode IRC channel has told me that he's porting LibrePup GNU/Linux to the rk3288 ARM chromebooks. He's almost there, and has got it to boot, he just has to get all the packages integrated. Librepup is a libre version of Puppy GNU/Linux.
Puppy uses a blobbed Linux kernel and uses Ubuntu packages, and contains some non-free packages.
Librepup uses linux-libre (deblobbed linux kernel) and uses Trisquel packages (instead of Ubuntu), and contains no non-free packages, either in the default install or in the repos.
Librepup isn't endorsed by FSF yet, but it is a libre distro. I've recommended to dimkr that he gets it certified by FSF, but either way it's acceptable as far as I'm concerned, so once it's ready I'll start linking to it on that C201 page on the libreboot site.
...in other news:
The tehnoetic guy responded in this thread saying that Parabola has been ported to ARM lately. This is for the BBB and other u-boot targets, but should be easy to get it running on coreboot+depthcharge (or libreboot, in this case) on these laptops. I contacted the Parabola project in their IRC channel and it looks hopeful. I'll give that a go later.
Still nothing conclusive from Trisquel, will retry contact with Ruben later (I already emailed him to ask about it, and also asked about ARM support in the Trisquel IRC channel).
GuixSD looks hopeful, and Mark Weaver told me he was interested, so that looks like it'll be ready at some point.
Things are looking good so far.
Sorry if you already said this but is it flash-able through a software method like the x60 or must you use a hardware method?
Software method, but you need to build from source and also disable write-protect on the flash ship by loosening a screw inside the computer. I haven't tried this myself yet however.
I made an account just to post here,hi everyone.
Why can't you all just get along Minifree?ThinkPenguin?I think the more free hardware that supports free software the better,arguing about how you got there/best way to achieve this isn't really the point.
Anyway,how comes all these discussions usually center around laptops and servers? How about other form factors of computing,like desktops and NUC's and even steammachines (a libre steamos anyone?)
I'm not a programmer nor am i highly knowledgeable in such matters,just asking as an end user.
Looking forward to chatting with you guys and learning.
Regards,
Allan
I am a translator!
welcome to the triskello community allan!
"how comes all these discussions usually center around laptops and servers?"
The goal of the free software movement is to free all the computing, regardless of device type. The only reason that, for example, the libreboot project has freed a lot of laptops and now, more recently, a server board, is that it's been technically possible to do so; it doesn't mean that desktop computers or hand-held devices are unimportant.
"(a libre steamos anyone?)"
it would be great to have a fully free steamos like distro
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