Graphical glitches in 3d games
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Hi guys.
i have a serious issue with the 3d graphics with trisquel. they seem to have a graphical glitch. & this happens on all 3d games, even the free software ones such as Nexuiz. Here's an example with doom (With a free/libre/open source engine by the way, Not the original propritary one with an emulator)
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Hi Embracer, can you give us a rundown of exactly what hardware you are running Trisquel on? I try to put all the info I have about my hardware under 'personal information' on my forum profile, so its easy to find when forum members are helping me.
I have no end of problems with 3D games, but that's because I try to run them on laptops with no more than 2GB of RAM ;) Even if you have a decent gaming rig, and it's been able to do the same level of heavy lifting without glitching under another distros/ OS, it's possible your graphics hardware requires proprietary drivers/ firmware/ blobs to work at full capacity. Trisquel, being a 100% free code distro, doesn't include these or make them available in its repos.
If you have some powerful gaming hardware, which is well supported by free code drivers/ firmware, then you may well have hit some bugs, and it would be great if we could figure out exactly what packages they affect, and see if they can be fixed.
Such artifacts are known bugs on older Intel graphics adapters, there's not much to do, but you can try updating the kernel.
I did it through here: http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/update-linux-libre-kernel
And there is still graphical glitches. Can i use the official drivers (if they are free?)
The libre drivers included in Linux are the official drivers. And, for the record, if a driver isn't included in Linux and isn't particularly new, that's generally because the driver is proprietary. Intel doesn't develop proprietary drivers for its integrated GPUs.
I have that on my 7300gt(I don't use it). I remember, that switching off some graphics effects, will remove glitches in Nexuiz.
Can be some incompatible effect with older OpenGL graphics cards.
Since apparently this is caused by a hardware defect, the only thing to do is work around it. I suppose the driver ought to be implementing such workarounds, but I digress...
For Doom, the solution is simple: just don't use any any hardware acceleration or OpenGL. It should be able to run fine in software. PrBoom-Plus is set up this way by default, but if you've changed it, go to Options->General and set Video Mode to something other than OpenGL, like "8bit" (and set "Use GL Surface for Software Mode" to "No").
For games like Xonotic, you'll have to use hardware acceleration, so I'd suggest fiddling with the settings and finding a configuration that looks decent.
Xonotic has software rendering using vid_soft 1, but it is very slow.
Yeah, that's what I meant: it's not going to be fast enough to be acceptable without hardware acceleration.
Are you kidding me?
I don't even get to play SuperTuxKart. My laptop can't handle it without the blobs for 3d acceleration. And I love that game.
When you try to use a 3d game, and you don't have blobs installed, will the software automatically change to CPU, or will it try to use the hardware and just "fail" to do so, leaving you with an almost frame by frame thing? Is there a way to specifically force CPU mode in games? (like SuperTuxKart for example). I think a 2Ghz CPU should handle it but it doesn't...
Much better playing 3d games on desktop computer. I have no problems with gtx460oc(and AMD athlon x2 3800+), and latest updated drivers. No blobs.
Any advice on improving someone's experience with GNU/Linux that starts with "buy a new computer" is *not* helpful! Some of us don't have the privilege of being able to afford new hardware, and we have to work with whatever hardware we can beg, borrow, or buy second-hand.
Ten years ago I could play reasonable games on a Compaq Pentium laptop with a 3GB hard drive, running Windows 98. 30 years ago, I played perfectly enjoyable games on a Commodore 64, with 64KB of RAM! Sure, those games weren't trying to be Halo, but they did run reliably (usually ;), and on hardware with a fraction of the computing power that even my 5 year old "netbook" has onboard.
Free code gaming, like free code GUI in general, doesn't need to follow the Windows bloatware model of demanding more and more powerful hardware with every version. Sure, there is a demand for a line of development catering to people with brand new 64-bit multi-cores, and RAM that's bigger than that old Compaq hard drive. But the vast majority of users have older/ cheaper hardware, and we need GUIs and games that we can run without crashing our PCs, or putting up with frustrating freezing and lag.
Hopefully, sooner rather than later, hardware manufacturers will start being more environmentally responsible and making devices that last, and can be repaired and kept running for decades. Free code software development can prepare for this, and encourage it, by aiming to support every piece of hardware that still physically works, regardless of how old, or limited.
> Any advice on improving someone's experience with GNU/Linux that starts with "buy a new computer" is *not* helpful! Some of us don't have the privilege of being able to afford new hardware, and we have to work with whatever hardware we can beg, borrow, or buy second-hand.
Sometimes that still is the only option.
The problem with games is they are made by people who don't care about freedom. They run all the blobs and believe all other people do as well... If only Linus found a pair and kicked out the blobs of Linux. Until that happens (if ever, Linus is such a "practical" guy that freedom isn't an often used word in his vocabulary...) we should make more people aware of the issue and the free distros.
I love old hardware and use it myself. This current trend of "disposable computing" makes me sick.
>This current trend of "disposable computing" makes me sick
Yes, makes me sick too.
Today you pay for modern hardware for spying you. Blobbed and backd00red hardware. And you must to pay backd00rs, blobs and spyware microcode, like Intel, Lenovo's BIOS...
Most libre games will run just fine on 10-year-old hardware with no hardware acceleration. But for higher-end 3-D games like Xonotic or SuperTuxKart, you're of course going to need something better. That's just a fact of life. And you can't always sacrifice graphical quality for performance. There's a limit to how much you can do that.
If you want some recommendations for good games that don't require particularly good hardware, here are some recommendations:
Project: Starfighter
Alex the Allegator 4
Freedroid
Kobo Deluxe
Dopewars
Freeciv
Freedoom
LTris
LBreakout2
GNUjump
Pang Zero
Scavenger
FloboPuyo
Defendguin
Burgerspace
All of the KDE games
All of the GNOME games
There are a bunch more.
But if you have weak hardware, you're going to have to live with the fact that games like Xonotic, SuperTuxKart, Minetest, OpenArena, and MegaGlest may be out of the question.
Thanks. Even though it doesn't make me feel better for not playing supertuxkart lol, this list gives good options to people who like to play other games :)
I would also add Performous, if you like karaoke.
You can build a desktop computer with hardware from 2005-2008 that runs all free software and 3d free software games flawlessly.
The biggest problem here it is not how old it is your hardware, the biggest problem are drivers of GPU.
And here not much info about GPU performance with latest drivers and kernel.
If we don't cooperate, we can't complain. So, we will not to have the info.
So, no body knows, what GPU will work fine without blobs, and performance near an Intel's HDxxxx.
The problem it is not the price, the problem is information and drivers.
This web is a good initiative, but I see that no doby cooperate.
But nothing to do with old kernel and old drivers, the info it is not updated.
I benchmarked my GPUs, but no body want to do the same:
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I don't think that site gives a crap about freedom. It doesn't mention firmware or microcode at all. So the results are useless.
"Please note that we are only interested in the results produced by Free Software or Open Source Software. If you are using a proprietary driver your results will not be helpful to us."
Yes, it doesn't talk about microcodes or firmwares, this only about drivers. And tests/benchmarks, are very outdated.
But here no more websites comparing GPUs running free drivers.
Maybe we could start that as part of the h-node.
Started time ago, but with GPU you can get 3d acceleration, and post it on h-node. This is wrong, you can have a GPU with 3d acceleration support, but nothing with 3d will run, 3d games will be unplayable. This not always true. And no benchmarks on h-node.
(Theory != practice)
I agree with Vita Cell here. If there was a cross-platform benchmark application I could download and run (or maybe even an ISO I could use to make a LiveDisk) that would collect information about the hardware its running on, and send it to H-Node, I would commit serious time to running that application on every, single piece of working hardware I could get my grubby mits on.
Is this a pipe dream, or is it maybe realistic? If it is, how could we go about creating such a project?
You can run benchmarks, like me. And post all your output, here.
$ grep VGA /proc/pci || lspci | grep VGA | colrm 1 4
$ egrep "model name|MHz" /proc/cpuinfo
$ xdpyinfo | egrep "version:|dimensions|depth of"
$ glxinfo | egrep -A2 "direct rendering|OpenGL vendor"
$ uname -a
$ vblank_mode=0 glxgears & sleep 30 ; killall glxgears
$ vblank_mode=0 glxgears & sleep 30
with installed "glmark2" (must to change resolution to your hightest one)
$ glmark2 -s 1920x1080 --annotate
with installed "glmark2-es2" (must to change resolution to your hightest one)
$ glmark2-es2 -s 1920x1080 --annotate
with installed "glmemperf"
$ glmemperf
----------------------------------------------------------
Run benchmarks before updating drivers, and write outputs to some .txt.
Then, compare them:
higher FPS and lower time = BETTER
higher score = BETTER
If something goes wrong with updated drivers, you can remove repository and downgrade versions to Trisquel's ones.
If you want to update your drivers (THIS IS AN EXTERNAL REPOSITORY; NOT TRISQUEL'S ONE; IF YOU ARE NOT SURE; DON'T INSTALL THIS)
https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
$ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:xorg-edgers/ppa
$ sudo apt-get update
$ sudo apt-get upgrade
There was a project to develop an h-node client. I don't know how that is going. I think one should be in the default install of all free distros, that way we would get a relatively large body of usable information. It could also include benchmarks.
Somewhat related bug https://trisquel.info/en/issues/2124
https://h-node.org/wiki/page/en/client-for-h-node-org
> Hopefully, sooner rather than later, hardware manufacturers will start being
> more environmentally responsible and making devices that last, and can be
> repaired and kept running for decades.
If only capitalism worked like that...
Planned obsolescence, proprietary software, total disregard for the
environment, constant economic crises, and shitty products for ridiculous prices
are all signs of the normal functioning of capitalism. Praying for capital to
be less bloodthirsty isn't going to change anything. Restructuring the economy
to enable more humane priorities is.
Agree!
I born in "CCCP", and much machines and technology built in CCCP still running and working today, high quality, easy to repair and maintain...
CCCP never worked with Planned obsolescence. Cuz it wastes limited CCCP's resources.
It maybe a tad off-topic for the forum, and certainly off-topic for this thread, but I'd be happy to join you in a discussion of how to fix bug #0 that underlies all proprietary software: corporatist capitalism. For me, the discussion of crowdfunding the cost of libre drivers/ firmware in the thread on cancerous logs point to at least part of the solution. The Maker/ "open hardware" movement is another part. But of course the more urgent problems are further down in the socio-economic stack; eg proprietary food (Monsanto are the Microsoft of food), proprietary housing (real estate speculation making home ownership unaffordable for most people).
If there's no hardware acceleration, there's no hardware acceleration, period. Games like SuperTuxKart run like molasses in this case because they need hardware acceleration to run decently.
I think avoiding OpenGL can help, though. On one of our old computers, it was the case that SuperTux Milestone 1 would run fine in software rendering mode, but turn on OpenGL, and it would start running abhorrently slow. I have no idea why this was the case.
"I don't even get to play SuperTuxKart"
you could try tux kart:
http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net/requirements.html
it has much lower system requirements
I tried Tux Kart once, and I have to vehemently oppose any suggestion to play it. It is horrid. No sound, terrible graphics, very limited gameplay, and terrible physics. It's not enjoyable to play at all. Not worth anyone's time. SuperTuxKart has come a long way since then.
There are a couple 2-D racing games that might be more worth your time. One example I've played is "Trophy" (package trophy). It's not spectacular, but it's worlds better than the original Tux Kart.
SuperTuxKart, nice game, but bugged for gamepad.
Is there some online mode for SuperTuxKart?
No, but it is planned since years ago.
I tryed 3 gamepads, 3 working, but, buttons assign is bugged in that game.
"No sound"
there is sound but i personally could not get it working
i think if you can get the sound working the game would be decent to play
TuxKart, compiled and tryed it right now. Nice, but fully bugged.
When you gas, your kart moves to the left everytime, you must push/release right button all time.
> Nice, but fully bugged.
roflmao
Any good graphics cards that will run on a Free OS? like the nvidia cards with Noveau for example?
I running gtx460oc right now, with 1580.000fps score(420.000fps before updated drivers). Runs flawlessly 3d games, at 800x600, but bad 1024x768 or more, all at 100hz(don't want detect more).
But, if you don't have all graphics cards models, you can't be sure 100%.
That website is recommending Radeon cards, none of which have working 3-D hardware acceleration at all without proprietary blobs. I would be suspicious of its Nvidia suggestions too, given this.
You right, all scores at that website did with 2.xxxx kernel.
I'm using gtx460oc, not perfect but works flawlessly with low resolutions for me(3d games). At desktop with xfce4, compiz, cairo-dock, works flawlessly with 1920x1080 100hz, 520gt works same way but at 144hz. But not perfect with 3d games. I have 7300gt and 520gt too. I tested Intel's HD4000, and this works much better, the bad thing, is that Intel GPU capped at 60hz, and this is not good for me.
I recommend some Intel HD, but not everybody has a modern Intel CPU.
There are older Intel integrated GPUs that are perfectly fine, at least as far back as ~10 years ago. Intel GMA, for instance, which my first laptop (from 2007) had. All of them worked fully with entirely libre software until recently when blobs started being required for certain features to work.
Intel GMA like 950 (in my laptops, macbook 2,1, x60s) works fine, no blobs, but no muscle to handle 3d games with all effects and high resolutions, and very limited graphic memory(no gddr here).
Intel GMA and HD I tryed, all of them working with free software, some Nvidia card work very well, but some cards work very bad.
The best option is Intel HD, but capped, and comes only with modern Intel CPU.
I was able to run Xonotic at its lowest quality settings fine with the Intel GMA I had. Of course, you say "with all effects and high resolutions", but that's a really high threshold you're setting; a lot of people will be fine with much less.
For the record, this was the laptop in question:
https://h-node.org/notebooks/view/en/1012/Satellite-L305-S5955
How is 60 FPS not good enough? I mean cinema is 24 FPS and looks good enough.
Cinema, not videogames. 60 is good, but monitor with 100-200hz and games running 100-200fps, it is much better.
But does it really make a difference? I mean it is a biological issue: your eyes are limited in the number of frames they can perceive per second.
I don't think the clock speed of the GPU has anything to do with the frame rate of the game. In fact, most games intentionally limit themselves to 60 FPS, and some of them intentionally limit themselves to something even lower, like 30 FPS. Going higher than 60 FPS is pointless visually, though it does improve responsiveness of the controls, which is why I chose 120 FPS for a Pong game I wrote with the SGE Game Engine.
That being said, I'd like to point out that frame rates above 24 FPS do make a substantial difference in games. There are a couple of reasons, but the biggest one is speed. The effective speed limit for any given object is the relevant size measurement of the object per frame, because moving any faster can cause collisions to be missed. So for example, a 32 pixel wide object is effectively limited to moving horizontally 32 pixels every frame without causing collision bugs. This effectively means that such an object can move at a rate of 1920 pixels per second at 60 FPS, but only 960 pixels per second at 30 FPS, and a paltry 640 pixels per second at 20 FPS. The effect becomes more significant with smaller objects.
This has actually been a problem I've had to work around in ReTux, which through delta timing can run at as low as 20 FPS -- if the fireballs and ice bullets had bounding boxes as small as you would expect, they would have to move much slower than they currently do, and the fact that they're already moving at their effective maximum speeds has meant that I've had to forgo conservation of momentum for them.
I can see much difference between 60-100hz, but not much between 100-144. But I can see difference between 100-200hz. But, it is useless running a movie with 100hz. So, you GPU must support more that 60hz, and if you want to the flawness, al your media must make same FPS as your Hz. If your media runs at 60fps, more Hz it is useless, you will se no difference. If your media runs 120hz, and monitor runs on 60hz, you will see no difference. To see the difference, you must to run your media at the same number of FPS like your monitor Hz.
Example:
For 200hz -> 200fps
For 200fps -> 200hz
For 100fps -> 100hz
For 100hz -> 100fps
For 60hz -> 60fps
For 60fps -> 60hz
Some numbers more that other ones, are useless.
If the numbers are the same, you will see the difference.
All my GNU system moves at 144fps with 144hz monitor, and Compiz does too. After that I don't want to see 60hz.(the worst downgrade)
But, cairo-dock capped.
Wait, did someone say GTX460 OC with Nouveau?
(Anyway the other 2 GPUs you mentioned seem to be worse thant he 460 anyway....with or without blobs http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html )
Yes, right now I using a gtx460oc. Latest drivers(not from Trisquel):
Using this drivers:
https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
This updates the already installed drivers on Trisquel.
460 works fine but 3d games(but not perfect), limiting at 800x600 100hz and lowest details/effects.
Yes, other 2 GPUs worse, but not much. Intel GPUs run free software drivers, and I running reverse enginereed drivers with 460. Look at my benchmark of my x60s GPU(using Trisquel's drivers):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ grep VGA /proc/pci || lspci | grep VGA | colrm 1 4
grep: /proc/pci: No existe el archivo o el directorio
2.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ egrep "model name|MHz" /proc/cpuinfo
model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo CPU L2400 @ 1.66GHz
cpu MHz : 1000.000
model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo CPU L2400 @ 1.66GHz
cpu MHz : 1000.000
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ xdpyinfo | egrep "version:|dimensions|depth of"
X.Org version: 1.15.1
dimensions: 1024x768 pixels (270x203 millimeters)
depth of root window: 24 planes
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ glxinfo | egrep -A2 "direct rendering|OpenGL vendor"
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.4
--
OpenGL vendor string: Intel Open Source Technology Center
OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) 945GM x86/MMX/SSE2
OpenGL version string: 1.4 Mesa 10.1.3
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ uname -a
Linux vita-ThinkPad-X60s 3.13.0-66-lowlatency #108+7.0trisquel2 SMP PREEMPT Tue Oct 20 07:57:07 UTC 2015 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ vblank_mode=0 glxgears & sleep 30 ; killall glxgears
[1] 3090
ATTENTION: default value of option vblank_mode overridden by environment.
ATTENTION: default value of option vblank_mode overridden by environment.
6293 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1258.467 FPS
6350 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1269.939 FPS
6413 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1282.584 FPS
6467 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1293.390 FPS
6283 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1256.426 FPS
6413 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1282.505 FPS
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ vblank_mode=0 glxgears & sleep 30
[1] 3120
ATTENTION: default value of option vblank_mode overridden by environment.
ATTENTION: default value of option vblank_mode overridden by environment.
6305 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1260.858 FPS
6356 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1271.196 FPS
6219 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1243.638 FPS
6394 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1278.691 FPS
6375 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1274.823 FPS
vita@vita-ThinkPad-X60s:~$ 6322 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1263.652 FPS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
460 gives me 1580.000fps with updated drivers.
More powerful GPU doesn't means better performance in 3d games or more compatibility.
For example: gtx970 is more powerful, but no free drivers here, so, is worse that GeForce MX4, GMA 500, 900, 950. (Yes, I had gtx970).
My best GPU right now is 520gt, it runs better in 3d games (worse that Intel's HD4000), and at 144hz.
You not right I think, running with or without blobs, here is a very big difference. If we talk about free software, some less powerful GPUs will get better performance in 3d games that most powerful GPUs(running free drivers).
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