I believe copyleft is harmful to the free culture movement

18 réponses [Dernière contribution]
zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

Separating software from the rest of free culture is just foolish.
Basically any moral argument for free software is invalidated by a rejection of everything else.
---

Copyleft doesn't do much to further the goals of the movement.

Some say copyleft protects freedoms.

The people whose freedoms copyleft is trying to protect
will likely just abandon it somewhere else,
because they don't know any better.

Instead of "protecting" them in silence,
we should teach them to value their freedom.

After that, they won't need any further protection.
Before that, any protection is useless.

Free licenses can be incompatible,
meaning that if you want to combine certain works
you still need to get special permission from all parties.
---

You can't fight fire with fire.

Any license will only encourage the thought,
of the author as the ultimate authority.

Every successful enforcement of a license
strengthens the idea that you have to obey the licensor's wishes.
---

I also want to mention the presentation/article
"Make Art, Not Law" by Nina Paley[1],
which is the best argument in favor of free culture that I know of,
and supports this view point.

[1] https://blog.ninapaley.com/2013/12/07/make-art-not-law-2/

Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

Copyleft doesn't do much to further the goals of the movement.

It does. I do not want my work to subjugate users. Not directly, but not indirectly either, i.e., through a middle-man who would substitute the license for a proprietary license. That is what copyleft prohibits. It works (it was tested in courts).

And, no, it is not a purely theoretical threat. For instance, macOS reuses much code from FreeBSD. If I were a FreeBSD developer, I would hate to have helped Apple subjugate its users.

Instead of "protecting" them in silence, we should teach them to value their freedom.

We can and should do both.

Free licenses can be incompatible, meaning that if you want to combine certain works you still need to get special permission from all parties.

With the great popularity of the GNU licenses (and of the CC BY-SA in the cultural realm), it is rarely a problem.

You can't fight fire with fire.

The copyleft aims to *defend* the users.

Every successful enforcement of a license strengthens the idea that you have to obey the licensor's wishes.

Really, I refuse to help anybody subjugate users reusing my work (wholly or in part). That is my wish, that is why I use the GNU GPL, and I want it obeyed or enforced.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

And, no, it is not a purely theoretical threat. For instance, macOS reuses much code from FreeBSD. If I were a FreeBSD developer, I would hate to have helped Apple subjugate its users.

https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuck-licenses/ uses an even worse example:

One of the funniest and saddest horror stories of Cuck Licenses I can think of is Andrew Tanenbaum, who released MINIX, an operating system, under a BSD license. Intel silently took this software (thanks to its license) and unbeknownst to him, used it for their Intel Management Engine, making it the OS of the spyware microprocessor/backdoor now running in all Intel CPUs. We all have a permanent NSA backdoor because of the Intel Management Engine—all made possibly by Cuck License cuckery.

zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

"I do not want my work to subjugate users."

But it isn't *your* work.
I thought that's the point of software freedom/free culture.
It belongs to everyone.

Copyright is trying to say that it can belong to an individual, and such statements just support that idea.

"The copyleft aims to *defend* the users."

But how is it supposed to do that?
It only affects derivative works.
There is still much proprietary software one has to look out for.
People can only be free if they make a conscious choice to do so.

(Or maybe I misunderstand, and that statement is not about their freedom?
But what else is there to defend them from?)

I assumed a major goal of the movement was the abolition of copyright.
Big cultural changes are needed to get to that point.
Copyleft, combined with this 'protection' mindset, gives free software advocates a reason to resist change in that direction.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

But it isn't *your* work.

The code I write is my work. I reuse works from others. I invite other to reuse mine, as long as they then respect the freedoms of their users. I refuse to help such unethical developers. I do not tolerate intolerance.

I thought that's the point of software freedom/free culture.

The point of software freedom is to be in control of your computing. Copylefted or not, free software licenses allow to use, study, modify and redistribute the program. They give the users the individual and the collective control over the software. Being allowed to subjugate users at a lower cost, by reusing the works done by others, is not the point. It is what the copyleft prohibits.

But how is it supposed to do that?

By not helping proprietary software developers. If they want the features of copylefted software, they have to rewrite it from scratch. If, instead, the software is permissively licenced, they get it gratis.

There is still much proprietary software one has to look out for.

So what? Because there is much proprietary software, we should help their developers with our work? That is the difference between pushover and copylefted licenses.

People can only be free if they make a conscious choice to do so.

With pushover licenses, any tiny feature proprietary software developers add on top of the program make the resulting user-subjugating derivative technically-better than the free original. Why should freedom come with technically-worse software? With the copyleft, there is no such problem.

But what else is there to defend them from?

From the attractiveness of a technically-better but nonfree program that was released at a lower cost, reusing permissively-licensed software.

I assumed a major goal of the movement was the abolition of copyright.

Abolishing the copyright on software would only be good if the authors would be forced to release the source code. Not only the binary.

Big cultural changes are needed to get to that point.

Indeed. A campaign to abolish the copyright law coud have been successful in the 19th century. Nowadays, a good way to fight against those abusing users with their copyrights is to produce better works and to not let them reuse our works for their evil objectives. The copyleft takes care of the latter.

Copyleft, combined with this 'protection' mindset, gives free software advocates a reason to resist change in that direction.

Authors do not opt for the copyleft to gain personal advantage but to defend the freedoms of their public. With a hypothetical abolition of the copyright (and the mandatory release of the corresponding source, also under no copyright), there would be no attack on their freedoms anymore. All free software advocates, *including* those who distribute their works under copylefted licenses, would definitely sign for such an abolition... which is very far from appearing on the political agenda of any country.

Your speech is purely theoretical. Mine is not. Imagine you are Andrew Stuart Tanenbaum. You have developed a kernel for many years. Essentially nobody uses what you directly distribute. However a big company took your hard work, wrote a backdoor on top of it, and burned the whole thing in billions of processors. Do you really think it was a good idea to help that company? To choose a pushover license?

Psion
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 12/29/2023

I agree that pushover licenses are inferior, though I would also say, its always better to have a permissive license than a proprietary or a broken license, aka, one that is incompatible like the license ZFS filesystem is under.

That being said, backdoors are always bad and I certainly wouldn't want any work of mine to be used for evil.

jxself
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/13/2010

But how is it supposed to do that?
It only affects derivative works.

This is a misunderstanding. The GPL ensures that the fundamental freedoms to use, share, study, and modify the software remain intact even when distributing exact copies. Copyright law grants exclusive rights to both distribution and modification. Because the GPL leverages copyright, it applies to both modified versions (GPLv3 Section 5) and unmodified copies (GPLv3 Section 4) of the software. Additionally, non-source distributions, whether modified or not, must be accompanied by the corresponding source code (GPLv3 Section 6).

"I thought that's the point of software freedom/free culture.
It belongs to everyone."

Adding on to what Magic Banana said, you're on the right track! Here's the thing about licenses like the GPL: they don't stop people from being able to use, change or share the software, but they do stop them from taking away the freedoms you mentioned. Think of it like a park. Everyone can come in and enjoy the playground, have a picnic, or just relax. That's the "freedom" part. But what the GPL does is prevent someone from putting a fence around the park and denying others. Continuing with what Magic Banana said, if someone wants to restrict people they'll have to build their own park. We can't use copyleft to stop that, since copyleft can only go as far as copyright does, but we can at least deny them using our own efforts to build our own park against us by coming along after the fact and building the fence. (They basically get the park for free at that point, since we already built it.)

"I assumed a major goal of the movement was the abolition of copyright.
I don't dispute that copyright might have been helpful in the past.
But I am talking about the present."

Copyright isn't the enemy - proprietary software is. In the case of proprietary software, copyright restricts users. That's definitely not what the free software movement is about. But even without copyright, a developer could withhold source code and still make the software proprietary, so eliminating copyright doesn't help the free software movement win. That's focusing on the wrong point.

Here's where things get interesting: strong copyleft licenses, like the GPL, actually leverage copyright to protect software freedom. They guarantee users the right to run, modify, and share the software, ensuring it stays open and accessible.

Now, imagine a utopian world where all software is free, and there's no more proprietary software. In that scenario, maybe copyleft licenses wouldn't be strictly necessary. But until then, they're a crucial defense mechanism.

Abolishing copyright altogether would actually hurt the free software movement. The GPL's power comes from its ability to enforce those core freedoms through copyright. Without that legal framework, those fence builders I mentioned would move in, and we'd have no way to stop them. Sure, we could still vocally complain and walk around with signs - and we already do that today too - but we'd lose the legal option that we have today.

Sure we could go build a new park, since the fence builders took over our old park and pushed us out, and then watch them come along and build a fence around our new one, too. Then we could build a third park, and let the process repeat itself. Until one gets tired of building parks and says that maybe people shouldn't be allowed to build fences around them - and starts looking into the legal options. This is when copyleft becomes valuable. And, as long as the fence builders exist, things like the GPL will continue to be good ways to stop them. Plus, please help to convince the fence builders to do socially better things than build fences i.e., help encourage them to make free software. Maybe that will help move us closer to a world where no one builds fences anymore and then we don't need to have legal mechanisms in place against fences, if no one makes them anymore.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

[Deleted]

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

>"Copyleft doesn't do much to further the goals of the movement."

This is not the free culture forum, this is a libre software forum to support Trisquel. Write your own OS that has nothing but creative commons licenses (or no licenses at all) and then start your own forum to support it. Then you will be in the correct forum.

Of course you won't do that, because even if you had the skill and energy to do it, proprietary software companies would just drag you through the courts for anything that they claimed infringed one of their licenses or patents (whether it actually did so or not). Which is the same problem that Stallman faced when he was trying to produce free software in the 1980s and came up with the GPL and LGPL as solutions.

zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

This is "General free software talk", and in anticipation of similar replies I added the first two lines of my post.

I don't dispute that copyright might have been helpful in the past.
But I am talking about the present.

prospero
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 05/20/2022

> This is "General free software talk"

Indeed: "a place to discuss free software, *free culture*, online privacy and related topics."

Resident chatboors sometimes turn into senile self-appointed moderators, frantically berating new forum users for no apparent reason. To the utmost farcical effect.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

Good point.

PublicLewdness
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 03/15/2020

Seems like you want to tear down the system without having much of an idea of what you want to replace it with or how it would work outside of pretty thoughts.

zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

What is the system you are talking about?
Copyleft? Copyright?

Copyright is the system I, and others, want removed, not replaced.

Copyleft is an attempt to resist the system while it still stands.
It is not a system.

I believe copyleft doesn't fulfill its intended purpose in that regard, and I would replace it, again, with nothing.
Or, more accurately:
A waiver of copyright, like cc0 or jxself's WPDD[1].
Because anything else is only supporting the current system, by being a part of it.

If that isn't enough resistance for you, you can also shit on copyright entirely and start actively infringing on it, like everyone else.

[1] https://jxself.org/wpdd.shtml

iShareFreedom
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 12/20/2021

Copyleft is a tool to legally defend ourselves against copyright privilege, which creates artificial monopolies through the law of nations legislation.

zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

Here are more points against copyright by a general freedom advocate.
(though the focus lies more on practical issues.)
http://www.tastyfish.cz/lrs/copyleft.html

zen garde
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/31/2023

Permissive licenses are only better in that enforement and incompatability is rarer.

I suggest using a waver instead.

Psion
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 12/29/2023

By waver do you mean the creative commons zero license? its basically like public domain supposedly from what I hear.

If that is what you mean, I suggest thinking otherwise.

Though I am not sure what you said just now.

Other_Cody
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 12/20/2023

I posted at

https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=995

but it also works here.

I'm glad you (Trisquel, Hyperbola and most free as in freedom software developers in this case) know what files are

trivial, non-Trivial, non-copyrightable, copyrightable, copyfraud,

and other "legal" things. I'm not a lawyer so I do not know.

I typed "legal" seeing that "laws" may change from time to time, and I also read

Against Intellectual Property
by N. Stephan Kinsella

that has a conclusion in the book telling about how, for at least copyright and patent, may take away rights to use some things you own.

I also see how "laws" may be different in each country, or not be like Biblical laws, or even not thought as laws by some people, like in the book

The Most Dangerous Superstition
by Larken Rose

Though I'm glad you may see what has to be under what license or not to comply with most "copyright laws" in most countries at this time. So users and programmers may not get sued.

Thank you for your help sorting out what code and other things has to be under what license, so users and programmers may not get sued.

Also at

https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=432245#p432245

there is a nice answer to the question

why do all the mods/textures we upload need a license?

by a user there called Blockhead.

Without a license users and programmers may be more likely to get sued. You may wish to see Blockhead's post for more (and better) information.

Though without any "copyright", or other things people may still try to make "End User License Agreements" to tell people about things under contract "law".

I'm not a lawyer, though even if all man made "laws" were not remembered or thought of as law, people may still try to do what is right in their own eyes, even if it is not right.

So ethical absolutes will likely to typed about, like the laws in the King James Bible.

The best way I know how to make things at this time is by using some freedom supporting (mostly copyleft or [Share-alike, the free ones]) licenses.

https://archive.org/details/king-james-bible-pure-cambridge-edition-pdf

https://archive.org/details/kinsella-against-ip-lfb-2012

https://archive.org/details/larken-rose-the-most-dangerous-superstition-iron-web-publications-2011

https://web.archive.org/web/20240503202342/https://pastebin.com/6E54TV2e

The "TempleOS" system, is in the public domain, but, it has many problems like,

cussing, blasphemy, inaccurate information about the Bible, as well many other problems

TempleOS and TinkerOS have no device drivers for CPU frequency control, temperature detection, fans, or other motherboard devices. It may be the case that you are able to boot TinkerOS bare metal, but you may be putting your machine at risk and it may crash due to thermal issues or because a watchdog timer is tripped because the operating system does not take over control of critical hardware (since there is no driver for it)..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS

https://github.com/cia-foundation/TempleOS

https://github.com/Zeal-Operating-System/ZealOS

https://github.com/tinkeros/TinkerOS

It's ReadMe.TXT shows

TempleOS

You can't do much until you burn a TempleOS CD/DVD from the ISO file
and boot it, or you aim your virtual machine's CD/DVD at the ISO file
and boot. TempleOS files are compressed and the source code can only be
compiled by the TempleOS compiler... which is available when you boot
the CD/DVD. TempleOS is 100% open source with all source present.

TempleOS is 64-bit and will not run on 32-bit hardware.

TempleOS requires 512 Meg of RAM minimum.

TempleOS may require you to enter I/O port addresses for the CD/DVD drive
and the hard drive. In Windows, you can find I/O port info in the
Accessories/System Tools/System Info/Hardware Resources/I/O ports.
Look for and write down "IDE", "ATA" or "SATA" port numbers. In Linux, use
"lspci -v". Then, boot the TempleOS CD and try all combinations. (Sorry,
it's too difficult for TempleOS to figure-out port numbers, automatically.)

The source code can also be found at the TempleOS web site,
http://www.templeos.org but cannot be compiled outside TempleOS because
it's HolyC, a nonstandard C/C++ dialect, and asm.

but I would not call it holy.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read

may help show about what could happen without users being able to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software "legally".

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

http://freedomdefined.org/

may help show free cultural works.

I do not know if some people will think software like TempleOS fits under this link

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/when-free-software-isnt-practically-superior.html

I did not check TempleOS source code to see if there are non-free problems in it. I think it is public domain.

I would rather use Trisquel, Hyperbola, or almost any gnu.org shown freedom supporting software than use TempleOS, though if that was all that was left I think I could change it.

And as many problems, for me at least, are in TempleOS I would have to change it.

You could make things under only CC0/public domain, but others than may try to block you from developing it further, or may block you or/and other users (with "legal" contracts) from sharing code, art, or even reverse engineering binary blobs.

The book torrents are here in-case this could help show more information about what some others think about copyright (Against Intellectual Property book) and politicians who call themselves "govenment" and make "laws"(The Most Dangerous Superstition book). The Bible can help show God's word.

These are also posted here in-case the archive.org site is down or blocked.

Pièce jointeTaille
king-james-bible-pure-cambridge-edition-pdf_archive.torrent 42.5 Ko
kinsella-against-ip-lfb-2012_archive.torrent 6.22 Ko
larken-rose-the-most-dangerous-superstition-iron-web-publications-2011_archive.torrent 44.45 Ko