I met RMS yesterday. We talked about Trisquel 8, this is what he said...

58 réponses [Dernière contribution]
happy_gnu
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A rejoint: 08/06/2017

...Clickbait.. yeah I know I am the worst..

Anyway, yesterday Richard Stallman gave a conference very close to my city, in fact in the same University I studied.

His conference was very good, funny and entertained, lots of students listened to him. You know his talks so I won't say more about it.

So to the IMPORTANT stuff, when conference was over RMS asked to go to a place to eat, and I asked to go with him too.

We ended on a restaurant, my father, one of the teachers/organizers who, was pretty cool but didn't know about Free Software until a day ago, RMS and me.

So I told RMS how now I use Parabola and how sometimes I recommended in this forum to use Parabola instead of Trisquel to a few users who seem desperate for new software:

He asked me to not do that: "If they have trouble, don't say to them 'go somewhere else', help them."

-But Parabola is fsf approved too, i said, "I know but that's not a good answer for a problem, help them".

Now I think he did not mean to not recommend Parabola at all, more like we should just help Trisquel instead of suggest users to move on to Parabola or something different.

I then said that I also try to defend Trisquel, more than once I've said that Trisqule 7 is NOT obsolete, it is still free software, and that we should keep in mind Trisquel is about Freedom not about new software. And we should wait for Trisquel 8 to be ready...

He looked at me and said...

"I want Trisquel 8 too.."

I was shocked. Here I am with the father of Free Software, the Saint iGNUcious himself, and he is telling me he wants Trisquel 8 too...

Now before you go on a Rant on your keyboards keep reading...

I don't remember exactly what he said after that. I said something about Ruben been busy and that I wish I could help but I did not know how..

He told me that I should help Trisquel 8, I said something like "But I don't know how, I am learning to package stuff for Parabola or Guix, but Trisquel I don't know".

It came to my mind the fact that there are a lot of Parabola or Guix hackers who had taught me and had been very patient with me.

He said something like it should not be too hard, Parabola uses Debian packages, so helping Parabola is learning to package stuff for Debian, removing non-free dependencies and building the package on Trisquel. (Something like that, blame my ignorance and not RMS if something is wrong with that sentence).

He agreed with all of you who said that we need Trisquel 8 and all that, because new comers need Trisquel. But he also told me that I can help others.

We talked about more stuff, but I don't want to bother you with that. I came back to my city after that, during the 3 hours trip back home I thought about Trisquel. I wanna help, so I learned a little bit in the morning. Today I will read as much as I can on how to help. I will try to learn as much as I can.

I know Trisquel 8 is too late already, but Ubuntu 18.04 is close, maybe if I learn enough during the next few months I can help a lot to Trisquel 9 happen sooner than later.

I have a lot of free time so I can use a few daily hours to learn and help. I want to ask you to point me on the right direction, what should I read, what should I learn. Please send me all that you can even if I need to learn on Debian or Ubuntu documentation. Or learn Bash or anything.

I know a little bit so I am not complete beginner, but treat me as the must dumb beginner you ever met. And I promise I will try to be useful, who knows maybe I'll fail, but I want to give it a try...

Let me know if you want more details about my talk with RMS or a picture for proof.

happy_gnu
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A rejoint: 08/06/2017

He said something like it should not be too hard, Parabola uses Debian packages, so helping Parabola is learning to package stuff for Debian, removing non-free dependencies and building the package on Trisquel. (Something like that, blame my ignorance and not RMS if something is wrong with that sentence).

Pffffffffff............ what a horrible mistake (thanks Tirifto for pointing out)

He said something like it should not be too hard, Trisquel uses Debian packages, so helping Trisquel is learning to package stuff for Debian, removing non-free dependencies and building the package on Trisquel. (Something like that, blame my ignorance and not RMS if something is wrong with that sentence).

gd_scania
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A rejoint: 09/13/2017

I have been watching on a nonfree pen testing distro, BlackArch, with appending this into Parabola (both pacman based) I am facing the same problem with the Deb contrib channel, security tools themselves are free but dependent on nonfree (from every main Arch channels, if also appended to existing nonfree Arch derivatives, of course not installable due to nonfree deps not fulfill-able in Parabola) like VirtualBox.

SuperTramp83

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A rejoint: 10/31/2014

>never had the privilege to feast with RMS :'(

me.jpg
Heather

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A rejoint: 03/06/2013

Just a public "Welcome home" to Trisquel and a mention of the
fact that I didn't think my opinion of rms could improve but it did yesterday.

Please don't underestimate yourself. St. iGNUcious agrees with me on this one. :)

Magic Banana

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A rejoint: 07/24/2010
ivanB1975
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A rejoint: 08/29/2017

Thanks for the links. Interesting for me is: the process is automated but before to upload the changes to the repos they are tested locally. This means there is a pretty active development. I installed Trisquel 8 and every day updates come in.

SalmanMohammadi
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A rejoint: 02/23/2012

This is the link to the repo on Framagit: https://framagit.org/smoha/trisqueldev

Mangy Dog

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A rejoint: 03/15/2015

Vpincini, i gave my opinion in some previous post and will not repeat myself. Frankly with several years of experience, i have come to the conclusion that the FSF is very good with everything that concerns "Software" that includes Licensing, Lawsuits, but is utterly incompetent about the way the Libre Distributions are maintained & organized.

In fact the FSF should hire Ruben full time to work on Trisquel because Trisquel is the most accessible Libre distribution, aimed at beginners.Hiring Ruben to work for the FSF was not beneficial to the Trisquel users.

ivanB1975
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A rejoint: 08/29/2017

I think that at some point the automation will allow to keep up with the main distribution (ubuntu) releasing at the same time.
I am wondering which tools are used to automate the releases and the builds. I see that they use jenkins for the builds.

vpincini
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A rejoint: 11/13/2014

I agree 100%

mason

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A rejoint: 07/07/2017

Thanks for sharing this. I've also been using Parabola lately and recommending it occasionally in this forum. This post was a good reminder of how important it is to support Trisquel. Advanced users have multiple libre options, but all users deserve freedom and Trisquel is perhaps the only sufficiently accessible libre option.

I do prefer a rolling release, but if I'm honest with myself, only a handful of packages in Belenos are too old for me, and I can install the newest versions of these with Guix.

I'll try out Flidas on my x60 tonight.

yeehi
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A rejoint: 06/02/2012

Trisquel 7.0 is dated now. Trisquel 8.0 is overdue, still unreleased and will be outdated if it ever is released, as it is based on a Ubuntu LTS which is soon to be superceded.

I think many people would agree that Ruben doesn't have the time he needs to continue to maintain Trisquel as it currently exists. It should therefor change to a rolling release distribution model or another maintainer should be found to either assist or replace Ruben.

Has it been stated somewhere that a prolonged release schedule is part of Trisquel's philosophy? If so, what is the rationale behind that? If not, is there some considerable advantage to being so far behind in development to outweigh the bugfixes?

Sadly, I am coming to a conclusion that Trisquel is a zombie project. Nothing puts it out of its misery. It still keeps lumbering on, but to what end? The sap has ceased to rise. Trisquel is doing more to block vibrant growth in the Free software community. It needs to be reinvograted or removed.

Magic Banana

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A rejoint: 07/24/2010

The rationale is more stability and less development work.

ivanB1975
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A rejoint: 08/29/2017

I think that many people don't understand the philosophy of the given from free time, of the volunteering and they just complain all the time without offering real help. I guess it is the human nature complaining. I could understand if Trisquel was a payed service. It is not. It is from the free iniziative of some developers. So honestly I don't understand. Nobody that is saying, ehi I have a lot of energies and time and I could help. I don't have time working 15 hours some days, but I also don't complain.

mason

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A rejoint: 07/07/2017

I am unaware of another libre distro that is fully functional without at least occasional use of a terminal or other tools which the majority of people do not know how to use. They should not have to learn to use these tools in order to be free. They just want something that works. Windows 7 (from 2009) isn't too old for them, and Trisquel 7 (2014) isn't either. It is irresponsible to suggest that Trisquel be "removed" when it is suitable, and currently the only path to freedom, for most desktop users.

SuperTramp83

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A rejoint: 10/31/2014

>Windows 7 (from 2009) isn't too old for them, and Trisquel 7 (2014) isn't either.

Well that is not a fair comparison..
Most Windows useds never see the OS, they don't use the OS but the programs, and they can install the newest version of any program without even being aware of the concept of 'dependencies', so in a way, practically speaking their OS is way newer than 2009.
A trisquel user must compile or, worse, use a ppa, eww.

mason

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A rejoint: 07/07/2017

You're right. I should have compared programs rather than the OS, but programs are no different. While I used* Windows 7 it never even occurred to me to seek out newer versions of MS Office or VLC. The basic programs that normal people need haven't required new features in years. When programs update themselves automatically (iTunes, web browsers) it is an annoyance rather than a feature. Normal people just want bug fixes and security updates and don't find newer versions of software appreciably different apart from having to get used to changes to the UI. I'm certain that most will prefer the convenience of clicking "Add Applications" in Trisquel and easily installing a stable version of each tool they need.

*was used by

SuperTramp83

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A rejoint: 10/31/2014

>I'm certain that most will prefer the convenience of clicking "Add Applications" in Trisquel and easily installing a stable version of each tool they need.

The software repository was, I remember, the thing that really made me fall in love with gnu when I installed my first distro. I mean, being able to install and upgrade your software with a liner.. something a windose mateson will never know. poor windose mateson :(
Security and convenience! \o/

strypey
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A rejoint: 05/14/2015

I would like to see more libre distros, with different specialist uses in mind. For example, there is the GOLD project I have proposed for a libre distro specifically tailored for the needs of gamers. I understand that there is a trade-off involved, more distros means more work to be done, usually by volunteers. But it also means more users getting their needs met by libre distros, and thus using and valuing them, and maybe donating time/ money to help them.

If there are any ways to simplify the work and infrastructure involved in running a distro, and make it easier for us mere mortals to help out, that would be great for the whole GNU-Linux world. Imagine if we could get to the point where one person, with intermediate GNU-Linux skills, could maintain a device-specific distro for a device they own!

vpincini
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A rejoint: 11/13/2014

Too the one who used the "Rating too low" thing on my post..

Use that stupid and unfair instrument will not change the truth: Trisquel is dead and your beloved RMS is between those to blame for it. And beetwen them there is also you and all the others who have ever used "Rating too low".

This is one of the reasons why this community is so small.
In this forums is not important if you care about freedom or free software.
It cares if you write "Gnu Linux" instead of "Linux".
It cares if you never go agaist what your saint Richard Stallman says.
In this forum you are not even able to close your account: once is forever
In this forum someone could decide (with no right at all) that your post has to be censored

In forums the appropriate way to do that is to have a moderator to decide what can go public and what can not.
And every post which respects the forums guidelines HAVE to go public. Even if the moderator does not like or does not agree with the contenent.
It is called freedom, something you often talk about but that does not apply to your forums.

That's all.
And now go on and "Rating too low" also this one.. truth will not change

ivanB1975
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A rejoint: 08/29/2017

I think that it is ok to speak, but in my personal opinion it should bring also something that helps. I don't agree with people that complain and do nothing. If you really think that this project is dead why do you come here in the first place? It is not to censor your ideas, but if you really think that this project is doomed you better spend your time doing what you like and makes you feel good.
You could try to be proactive and try to contact the developers.

I already installed the 8 and I am using it, this is also a kind of help indirectly to the project.

PS I also don't like the plus minus votes, I give only plus when I like the ideas. We are not kids here and we should always be responsible for what we say regardless our point of view. Sometimes I critize post where I see that people present distorted facts or personal ideas as facts and if I can demonstrate this I do. But I try to respect in general the people.

Mangy Dog

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A rejoint: 03/15/2015

A solution could be to have a Libre distribution offering paid services, such as VPN, Web Hosting, email service, thus having an income that could be partly used to pay salary(ies) of one to two developer(s) to maintain that distribution, and run services.

I'm sure if tomorow Trisquel or evn Uruk GNU/Linux offered these services, it could be selfsubstainable and maybe even become a profitable enterprise ?

onpon4
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A rejoint: 05/30/2012

Or, if the services aren't wanted, they could be a burdensome overhead that prevents OS work from getting done. There are better ways, like the Red Hat model, to make developing a libre OS into a business, but it's not easy.

Mangy Dog

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A rejoint: 03/15/2015

Totally agree, though https://www.redhat.com/en/about is a big fish "model".

onpon4
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A rejoint: 05/30/2012

Right, and that's why it's hard.

Another more realistic way is the Think Penguin approach: fund development of an OS to use on computers you sell (I'm referring to how development of LibreCMC was funded).

Mangy Dog

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A rejoint: 03/15/2015

I'm referring to how development of LibreCMC was funded).

From what i gather on https://librecmc.org/faq.html

Are libreCMC developers paid?
No, libreCMC developers are not paid. All the work they do on the project is on their own time at will.
Does the libreCMC project get funding?
Yes and no. Currently, libreCMC will get 20% of router sales from ThinkPenguin, Inc after all router stock has been sold. Funds received by the project are used for development hardware and tools to add new build targets. At this time, libreCMC does not receive money from any source and does not pay developers.

No comparison is possible with Red Hat Enterprise 2017 Revenue: $629 million, in September, shares jumped more than 4.2 percent after the company’s second-quarter earnings report topped market expectations..
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/27/red-hat-earnings-q4-2017.html
https://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/17/09/10103541/wall-street-weighs-in-on-red-hats-impressive-quarter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat

Red Hat Enterprise revenue is x628 times the one of the FSF !

davidnotcoulthard
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A rejoint: 02/28/2014

@ https://trisquel.info/en/forum/i-met-rms-yesterday-we-talked-about-trisquel-8-what-he-said#comment-122609 (#20)

I don't see how the condition of a distro's forum means a distro is dead.

I mean, you sound like one of those "is slackware dead" posts (it's not, they just update their news very, very, very, very seldom - that plus they don't even run a forum)

(that said I'm on Slackware at the moment so...yeah)

Mampir
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A rejoint: 12/16/2009

You should definitely learn Bash and there are many tutorials around the Internet for that. You should lean basic usage for command-line tools like grep, sed, awk, diff and patch. You should also learn how Deb packaging works, for which there should be tutorials on the Ubuntu and Debian wiki, and probably in other places too.

General understanding of how GNU/Linux systems work is good to have. Stuff like file system hierarchy, mounting, partitioning, types of file systems and file owners/permissions.

Also, it's probably not mandatory, but it may be useful to have some basic knowledge how C/C++ programming and compiling works.

If you (or anyone else) is really up of for doing this, I'm open to help by giving gratis lessons on the above (or related) topics - I'm a teacher and I enjoy explaining stuff. :)

The effort to help Trisquel development is useful, although in my opinion it would be more useful to develop a better beginner-friendly installer for Parabola, because it seems to me that's the main thing that Trisquel/Ubuntu do better and make them more beginner friendly. I think the general architecture of Parabola/Arch is better overall and Parabola is already well maintained.

Megver83
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A rejoint: 12/21/2015

grep, sed, awk, diff and patch

Looks like no one remembered git :)

I'm open to help by giving gratis lessons on the above (or related) topics - I'm a teacher and I enjoy explaining stuff. :)

But would be for helping Trisquel only? I'd like to contribute, but I'm too busy with Parabola.

I wanna learn C, mainly because I work a lot with kernels and Linux is written in C.

in my opinion it would be more useful to develop a better beginner-friendly installer for Parabola

https://www.parabola.nu/news/new-openrc-and-lxde-isos/

"(...) we are planning to (...) include the Calamares installer for a more user-friendly experience for newcomers."

ADFENO
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A rejoint: 12/31/2012

Ah... git... indeed.

Actually, any general notion of how version control works.

In the college where I study, people around all courses/degrees have the
need for version control systems like git, although no course is being
offered for that and they don't know what it is. I might offer an
introduction to it next year depending on how much patience, time and
money I have in my hands. ;)

When I say "all courses/degrees", I really mean it. Even those seeking a
Bachelor's degree in business administration, as is my case. ;)

One of the things I like about git is that differentiation only works
with plain text files by default. For me, this isn't a problem since I
write documents, presentations and spreadsheets in Org mode (with some
parts in LaTeX), and diagrams or other figures in TikZ.

Sometimes I use Inkscape to draw to a .svg file or GNU Dia to the same
effort, but I avoid both because I find them hard to remember the
structure if I'm writting to them using a text editor, and because it's
hard to remember their markup.

There are ways to make git do differentiations with non-text files, and
this does make sense with images in common formats (using ImageMagick,
which marks the spots) and for .pdf (using diffoscope). But for other
things --- including files from office suits/suites and multimedia
projects --- attempting to differentiate stuff will probably be much
easier by checking out the older version, copying it somewhere else,
checking out "master" again, and opening both the old and new versions
manually and having a detailed verification.

megver83 [at] parabola [dot] nu writes:

> grep, sed, awk, diff and patch
>
> Looks like no one remembered git :)
>
> I'm open to help by giving gratis lessons on the above (or related)
> topics -
> I'm a teacher and I enjoy explaining stuff. :)
>
> But would be for helping Trisquel only? I'd like to contribute, but
> I'm too busy with Parabola.
>
> I wanna learn C, mainly because I work a lot with kernels and Linux is
> written in C.
>

Magic Banana

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A rejoint: 07/24/2010

I'm a teacher and I enjoy explaining stuff.

Same thing for me. You may find useful the slides I use to teach less, head, tail, cat, tr, wc, cut, paste, comm, join, sort, uniq, grep, sed (focusing on the s command) and awk:

  1. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda3.pdf
  2. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda4.pdf
  3. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda5.pdf
  4. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda6.pdf
  5. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda7.pdf

Their LateX Beamer sources:

  1. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda3.tar.bz2
  2. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda4.tar.bz2
  3. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda5.tar.bz2
  4. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda6.tar.bz2
  5. http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda7.tar.bz2

http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/data.tar.xz contains the data and the solutions to the exercises in the slides. The context is that of pre-processing data for future analysis (the rest of the course) and not system administration. Anyway, the commands are the same.

Do you have material I could use to improve my course?

ADFENO
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 12/31/2012

I like the course materials very much! Actually, I have it in my list of
favorites for quite some time. ;)

lcerf [at] dcc [dot] ufmg [dot] br writes:

> I'm a teacher and I enjoy explaining stuff.
>
> Same thing for me. You may find useful the slides I use to teach
> less, head, tail, cat, tr, wc, cut, paste, comm, join, sort, uniq,
> grep, sed (focusing on the s command) and awk:
>
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda3.pdf
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda4.pdf
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda5.pdf
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda6.pdf
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda7.pdf
>
> Their LateX Beamer sources:
>
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda3.tar.bz2
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda4.tar.bz2
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda5.tar.bz2
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda6.tar.bz2
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/slides/mda7.tar.bz2
>
>
> http://dcc.ufmg.br/~lcerf/data.tar.xz contains the data and the
> solutions to the exercises in the slides. The context is that of
> pre-processing data for future analysis (the rest of the course) and
> not system administration. Anyway, the commands are the same.
>
> Do you have material I could use to improve my course?
>

--
- https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, veja formas de se comunicar
instantaneamente comigo no endereço abaixo.
- Contato: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
(apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.

Mampir
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A rejoint: 12/16/2009

That cool! :) Unfortunately I don't use slides or anything like that when I teach, so I don't have any files I can share...

Mangy Dog

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A rejoint: 03/15/2015

Magic Banana's slides are very good ( did download them + year ago, we should link to them via a Trisquel wiki page ?).

@Mampir you suggestion of improving the Parabola installer is a good idea ;-) thanks.

Maybe some kind of summer class's could be organized one specific day(s) on the IRC/Forum ? similar to :
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom

This could involve all the Trisquel, Parabola, FreeSlack, LibertyBSD, ConnochaetOS, Dragora, Ututo, gNewSense community users (Libre Distributions Summer Class's).

happy_gnu
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A rejoint: 08/06/2017

This is very good!!! Thank you both magic banana and Mampir.

Can we talk over email or can we talk in IRC ?
Email: happy_gnu @ teknik.do
IRC and Riot: happy_gnu

Time4Tea
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/16/2017

> I know Trisquel 8 is too late already, but Ubuntu 18.04 is close, maybe if I learn enough during the next few months I can help a lot to Trisquel 9 happen sooner than later.

> I have a lot of free time so I can use a few daily hours to learn and help. I want to ask you to point me on the right direction, what should I read, what should I learn. Please send me all that you can even if I need to learn on Debian or Ubuntu documentation. Or learn Bash or anything.[/quote]

I think this is an excellent attitude from happy_gnu. For all those calling for Trisquel 8, saying "where is it? why is it so late?": it's only going to happen if *you*(/we) pick up a keyboard and devote our time to making it happen. Spend some of our time coding/learn to code, whatever we can do. We need to learn how to build and maintain this distro ourselves - there is no magic grotto of coding gnomes that is going to do it all for us.

I would like to help out as well, if/when I can find some time. (Personally, I've been building a Linux From Scratch System over the past few weeks, so I can learn more about how a distro works under the hood. It's a great resource and I highly recommend it.).

The world needs a free-software version of Ubuntu, that is easy to use and accessible for newer users. We all need to pull together to make it happen!

marioxcc
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A rejoint: 08/13/2014

“He looked at me and said...

"I want Trisquel 8 too.."”

As is typical of Stallman, he complains and says what he wants to be done, but does not do anything about it. Although he has done real work in the past, now he is lazy and unwilling to move a finger (think about it: what has he personally contributed in the last year to free software?).

Magic Banana

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A rejoint: 07/24/2010

Stallman has been spreading the word about free software. All around the world. That probably has far more impact than any code he could have written. He thinks new issues and writes about them too: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/essays-and-articles.html

What have you "personally contributed in the last year to free software"? Should I call you "lazy and unwilling to move a finger"?

marioxcc
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A rejoint: 08/13/2014

> Stallman has been spreading the word about free software. All around the world.

Correct. He gives himself a luxurious life as a traveler of the world's big cities, where people celebrate him for his past contributions (Emacs, GNU, the GNU GPL, etc.), achievements of an era long gone.

Oh, and as part of his never-ending voyage he talks (sometimes for hours) about a topic that is literally a few clicks away from nearly anybody (there is plenty of information about free software online).

> He thinks new issues and writes about them too: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/essays-and-articles.html

This is just an euphemism for “he complains about what is wrong with computers (w.r.t. software freedom) and asks that other people (never him!) do something about it!”. What has he done to solve the problems that he complains about: Intel ME, graphic cards firmware, proprietary JS, etc.? As far as I know, nothing.

> What have you "personally contributed in the last year to free software"? Should I call you "lazy and unwilling to move a finger"?

First, note that what I do has no bearing on my critique to Stallman. Believing otherwise would be the ad hominem fallacy.

In the last year I have contributed mostly fixes of software errors (the so called “bugs”) to existing free software projects. In a public project I have published computer-verified proofs in higher order logic (HOL4, specifically). However I will not elaborate on my contributions because again this is irrelevant to the discussion.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

First, note that what I do has no bearing on my critique to Stallman.

It has everything to do with my critique to you. Not only you do far less than Stallman for free software but you feel entitled to call him lazy.

Today, Stallman's advocacy is far more useful than the code he could contribute. Sure, what he says is on the Web. Yet, most users (including many GNU/Linux users) have never heard about the freedoms they deserve.

marioxcc
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/13/2014

> It has everything to do with my critique to you. Not only you do far less than Stallman for free software but you feel entitled to call him lazy.

Again this is the ad hominem fallacy. Given that you seem to not to understand this concept, do a simple web search (1, 2). That will bring plenty of web sites that will try to explain it to you. But probably no amount of explanations will suffice, as you have already proved that you are incapable of following arguments and of recognizing your mistakes when you recommended a security practice that would have been broken 2 decades ago and on top of that, defended it with ludicrous arguments.

Whenever I make a contribution, I do so for the sake of the contribution itself, not for the credit, nor bragging, nor for proving my worth to anybody (which seems to be what you think). Thus I have absolutely no interest in discussing with you my contributions.

I have only replied so far to you for the sake of other readers who may be misled by your comments. Since I have already given my arguments, my discussion with you ends here.

Magic Banana

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Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

If you consider that your critique of Stallman is funded then you must consider that my critique of you is: I have returned your own words against you. Literally (your words are in quotes below):

What have you "personally contributed in the last year to free software"? Should I call you "lazy and unwilling to move a finger"?
https://trisquel.info/forum/i-met-rms-yesterday-we-talked-about-trisquel-8-what-he-said#comment-122987

In one word, you are hypocrite. Sure that does not disprove that "Stallman has not contributed in the last year to free software" (I separately did that and you have not replied). It is just a separate point I make.

About the past thread: I thoroughly made my point in two posts below the one you link. Doing the math. Is math "ludicrous"? You have replied to none of those posts. Is it because "you are incapable of following arguments and of recognizing your mistakes"?

mason

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A rejoint: 07/07/2017

Magic Banana is one of the most consistently helpful and valuable resources on this forum. You show up occasionally to take everything personally (to the point that you still haven't gotten over an argument from almost two months ago), become hostile, and derail the conversation. Even when you make the occasional factually correct statement or sound point, it is not enough of a "contribution" to be worth that amount of toxicity.

By the way, it would only have been an ad hominem fallacy if Magic Banana's argument *relied* on personal criticism of you. If every time somebody criticized someone it were an ad hominem fallacy, then so would be all of your arguments criticizing RMS. Magic Bananas argument was that RMS's time is better spent spreading information about free software to many potential supporters and contributors than acting as a single contributor. Pointing out your hypocrisy was a separate statement. You failed to adequately address that argument and focused instead on the second statement, committing a red herring.

marioxcc
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/13/2014

> it is not enough of a "contribution" to be worth that amount of toxicity.

Free feel to ignore my messages then. Taking into account that you use the word “toxicity” without even knowing what it means, your commentary would not be missed by me at all.

There is no reason for me to be nice when pointing people's mistakes. I am intentionally harsh, as it should be. Nobody deserves kind words for doing things wrong. That privilege is reserved to the occasions when people do things right (and I am nice in those situations).

> Pointing out your hypocrisy was a separate statement.

As already stated, I contribute to free software, even though it is not my obligation. On the other hand, Stallman is obligated to contribute to free software since he is the director of the Free Software Foundation. What does he do? He spends his time traveling to expensive cities and living a luxurious life. That he spends a minuscule amount of time in each of his tour destinations spreading the word of free software is barely better than doing absolutely nothing in those destinations; but by far, it falls short of fulfilling his duty, let alone of making him a person worthy of admiration.

> Magic Bananas argument was that RMS's time is better spent spreading information about free software [...] You failed to adequately address that argument and focused instead on the second statement, committing a red herring.

If you refer to this quote: “Today, Stallman's advocacy is far more useful than the code he could contribute. Sure, what he says is on the Web.” this is beside my point: that Stallman does nothing to solve the problems he complains about. What has he done to replace Intel ME? Nothing; what is he doing about proprietary JS (no, he did not write LibreJS)? Nothing; what is he doing about proprietary computer-phones (“smart” phones) Nothing; what has he done about graphics cards which require proprietary drivers? Yet again, nothing!; and about proprietary updates of CPU firmware? take a guess; he does nothing (and again, addressing the problems that threaten freedom of computing is his moral duty as the leader of the Free Software Foundation).

mason

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A rejoint: 07/07/2017

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toxicity "an extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful quality"

You describe your own language as harsh. It also is harmful and malicious.

It is harmful to make use insipid or irrelevant comments as a distraction. You make many statements that are accurate or subjectively reasonable but do not form a complete argument. Because of this, others do not accept your conclusion. You deflect by accusing them of misunderstanding the individual statements, when the problem is that the statements do not form a logical progression toward proving your claim. You ignore everything in their response about which you can’t make additional tangentially related statements to avoid moving toward a conclusion. This is why these conversations go in circles.

It is malicious to use the pretense of making an argument to berate others. Your use of a debate tactic that avoids progress toward a conclusion indicates that you are uninterested in persuading anyone to agree with you. Instead, it seems that each statement you make is an attempt to justify the subsequent insult by first demonstrating that you are articulate and presenting an irrelevant but superficially reasonable statement. Your defensiveness over virtually everything said to you, plus the fact that you are still so hung up on the password generation thread that you brought it up weeks later in an unrelated discussion, makes it painfully obvious that you are driven by insecurity rather than logic.

You can disagree with my assessment, but I used the word “toxicity” correctly. I regret participating in this and will be checking out now. However, I want to acknowledge one thing you are right about, which is that distributing your project as free software is a meaningful contribution. I do respect that.

quantumgravity
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/22/2013

"There is no reason for me to be nice when pointing people's mistakes. I am intentionally harsh, as it should be. Nobody deserves kind words for doing things wrong. That privilege is reserved to the occasions when people do things right (and I am nice in those situations)."

So you have the unlimited ability to judge what's right and wrong from a completely objective point of view, and you're also some kind of educator who considers his own praising words a "privilege".
...disgusting.

Even if you got a nobel price for amazing contributions to the world, your attitude would still be horrible and inappropriate. But you didn't.
From what I've read in other threads, you're constantly overestimating yourself and are unwilling or unable to admit mistakes.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

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A rejoint: 07/24/2010

Stallman has never received a cent for being the president of the Free Software Foundation. He is not "living a luxurious life". Quite the opposite. There is little to enjoy of spending hundreds of hours a year in planes. And he does not seek money. He only earns what he is given to deliver speeches.

He only asks for what he needs to survive during his stays (an accommodation, which needs not be a hotel, meals and an Internet connection twice a day). I know that for a fact. I took care of his venue in Brazil in May. I sought (and found) ways to pay him a per-diem allowance but he never asked for it. Finally, Stallman is very far from being lazy. He is a hard worker. He basically accepts all requests for interview that he receives. Whenever he has a few minutes at his disposal (e.g., in transportation), he takes his laptop and works (mainly replying to the hundreds of e-mails he receives every day and writing political notes on his site).

In the end (again, that is a separate point), you are not only hypocrite but ignorant (or a lier?) too.

Finally, studying and being vocal about the problems we face as users of computers is not "nothing". Through his speeches, Stallman motivates the development of solutions: more code is written thanks to his speeches that what he could achieve alone.

Ignacio.Agullo
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/29/2009

On 12/11/17 15:44, wrote:
> In the end (again, that is a separate point), you are not only
> hypocrite but ignorant (or a lier?) too.

Rightly said. That was not an argument, it was just trolling.

--
Ignacio Agulló · agullo [at] ati [dot] es

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

En ligne
A rejoint: 10/31/2014

>Correct. He gives himself a luxurious life as a traveler of the world's big cities, where people celebrate him for his past contributions (Emacs, GNU, the GNU GPL, etc.), achievements of an era long gone.

The day you write the GPL, emacs, glibc and gcc I will send you on a luxurious travel in whatever big city of your choice be it the last penny..