Libreshop x200 sale
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One reason why buying products from a company like Puri.sm is very attractive is that I can decide to buy brand new hardware with a 100% libre OS (from the kernel up), without digging through hours and hours of back-and-forth arguments about whether this or that ancient laptop is the more libre/ secure, or whether this or that vendor is more ethical. Reading threads like this one is exhausting and depressing, because a) they leave me feeling like I know less than I did when I started, rather than more, and b) watching people scrap over minor differences as if their lives depended on it isn't fun.
The hard truth is that most people will never install their own OS on a regular basis, let alone Libreboot a laptop, for the same reason most people buy or download software instead of programming it, and most people buy a car instead of reconditioning a vintage one, or assembling one from a kitset. Most people are too busy doing the work they specialize in, and getting on with their lives, to build every piece of tech they use from scratch and maintain it themselves. In fact, if we're honest with ourselves, hackers are the same. Most of us do not recondition old cars or build kitsets, or sew our own clothes from free patterns with a home sewing machine, or grow our own vegetables etc etc. All power to those who do any of these things, but I'll freely admit I don't do any of them (I don't own a car, I buy used clothes from charity shops, and I live in an apartment with no yard or balcony, surrounded by cheap grocery stores and meal options).
Unless and until capitalism is overthrown by a substantially different political-economic system, where people have entirely different choices about how to spend their time and access to supply chains organized on an entirely different basis, the *only* way to get freedom-respecting devices into most people's hands is to set up businesses that sell them. It's easy to think that setting up a business and making a living from it is easy, and that any markup above cost is graft, until you actually try to do it. It's bloody difficult, and I take my hat off to anyone who tries to run a business selling freedom-respecting hardware in a market utterly dominated by corporate mega-brands with a *massive* and thoroughly entrenched supply chain. If people just want to make easy money, there are *much* easier ways.
It's OK to share verified information about the technical decisions made by outfits like Puri.sm or Technoethical or Libreshop, and their potential impacts on software freedom or security. But can we *please* stop spinning conspiracy theories about their motives and accusing them of being like MS, Apple or goOgle? It's this kind of aggressive, judgemental, scorched-earth behaviour that gives software freedom activists a bad reputation outside our bubble as being crusading puritans who can't be reasoned with. For example, see:
https://socialhub.network/t/feneas-handover/511
You seem to assume that there is something ethical in a company like Purism which deliberately misleads people through their "libre/pure" marketing propaganda behind which things are not so "libre" and "pure". If your goal is just to have hardware with "libre OS" you can buy from any company.
> watching people scrap over minor differences as if their lives depended on it isn't fun.
Our lives do depend on computers and their security. Computers hold all our data, all our money, all our health records, our energy resources, our knowledge, everything.
> Unless and until capitalism is overthrown by a substantially different political-economic system, where people have entirely different choices about how to spend their time and access to supply chains organized on an entirely different basis, the *only* way to get freedom-respecting devices into most people's hands is to set up businesses that sell them.
This "only way" is short lived in a corrupt environment. The long term way is education, making more people aware of the harms of greed and exploitation. The question is - will you work to change something or will you just wait for someone else to transform the world into some marvelous heaven, so you can just enter and enjoy it. It is easy to be critical and propose "solutions" to do the same old.
> But can we *please* stop spinning conspiracy theories about their motives and accusing them of being like MS, Apple or goOgle? It's this kind of aggressive, judgemental, scorched-earth behaviour that gives software freedom activists a bad reputation outside our bubble as being crusading puritans who can't be reasoned with. I read almost all posts after February. For example, see:
In my opinion, they would have started their projects with good motives. As I wrote in some posts. But now, it seems that they don’t have strong passion that they would have had it in earlier time. At least, I don’t understand well what they are thinking about well because I have not received their opinions from my posts, given that they have read those my posts. For example,
If they are not false worriers, this was your words, they must have their opinions about this political issue. That means they are not thinking seriously to achieve their root purpose. It is to
free all computers in this world. I have seen those so-called good people turn into ugly things with keeping the flag of those good argument, policy, philosophy. Third-party eyes are essential to prevent your friends from turning into not good ways. I also have seen ugly family quarrel with libre products vendors here. We should cooperate to achieve the purpose. But it seemed this community could not stop that horrible quarrels, nor let them note “This product respects your freedom but not your privacy very much.” on the top pages of their websites. By the way, it should be called dishonest. There is no different between that behavior toward their customers and things those companies you mentioned are doing. This browser doesn’t track you, but does other things.
Is there any differences? Can you convince or refute me?
Saying wrong is wrong is important. I would admire, for example, people who achieved librebooted laptops, libre operation systems, other libre software. Probably every one here admire as a matter of course. But wrong is wrong. Criticizing them is community’s job. Please tell me why don’t you criticize your brothers instead of criticizing people who accuse them of being like Google? It might be their love, not maliciousness, you know.
I understand why there are so many family quarrels. By the way, I think Tor Browser is the most great app. It is easy to use, but it seems users have to do some easy setting to use it properly. It is an acceptable moderate education for me. At least I feel so. Why they could make such a great app is maybe concerned with the origin of Tor. They wouldn’t have such worries to make it “user friendly”, openly. Because they don’t need to argue like “I am not on that side, maybe.” to somebodies have (had) power.
So we don’t need cowards who have no intention to achieve a purpose. I want to ask, so what for? why did you start that? Our activation is not a playing house. This is a race with pollution. The procrastination of millisecond might decide the race. There is no room for family quarrels.
You already know some people who desire their death, but via others’s death is the absolute condition, whatever their enemies (us), good friends, their family. They really don’t care who would become their victims. So disunion becomes their nature. Our strong advantage is the chain of trust.
And mass pollution is proper to the condition, our grand death (see Dr. Strangelove). Obviously they do not care of their children’s future. They care of only themselves.
Something seems to be that “Do not educate easy victims who entered in our territory.”
It probably be the grey flag for our enemies. I am not white, nor black, actually black, though, a bit white, at least a bit, but in this case, totally white, in that case, grey, etc.
You're not listening.
zigote:
> You seem to assume that there is something ethical in a company like Purism which deliberately misleads people
This is exactly the kind of conspiracy-mongering I'm talking about. It's fine to point out the cases in which a company's technical practice doesn't match their public claims. That's helpful. Engaging in character assassination of the people involved, and endowing them with sinister motives, is not helpful at all, it's just mean-spirited. I would go so far as to call it trolling.
> It is easy to be critical and propose "solutions" to do the same old.
You certainly seem to find it easy :) Getting new hardware manufactured to better support free code OS, rather than just porting them to consumer devices sold in the proprietary supply chain a is relatively new strategy (sure there's OpenMoko and so on). Regardless of their flaws, this is what Purism, FairPhone and companies like them are doing.
Your "solution" ...
> making more people aware of the harms of greed and exploitation
... is what the FSF and others have been doing since the 1980s. I've been doing it with groups like Indymedia and Disintermedia since the 1990s. It's valuable and it needs to continue. But you really can't argue that it's not the "same old" and it certainly hasn't brought about the Year of GNU/Linux on the Desktop.
FWIW I've heard people who know a lot of software freedom, privacy, and so on, saying very good things about Purism and the people behind it:
https://librelounge.org/episodes/episode-15-at-libre-planet-with-sean-obrien.html
> Engaging in character assassination of the people involved, and endowing them with sinister motives, is not helpful at all, it's just mean-spirited.
First of all - no person has been assassinated. You seem to imply that it is fine to point out hypocrisy as long as there is no hypocrite as if hypocrisy is something abstract and doesn't come from people. This is meaningless. I also don't quite see what "helpful" has to do here. If you think I am trying to help anyone you are wrong. There have been too many who "help" others.
> You certainly seem to find it easy :)
That "it" is not my "it". You are twisting the context to prove an out of context thing. What I was saying was about your "only way" (perpetuating capitalism while waiting for it to magically disappear). That wasn't said with any particular connection to hardware manufacturing and all the rest which you explain now.
> Your "solution" ...
The "solution" (quoted to point out that it is not) means to do the same old (capitalism etc) as this is what you actually suggested. Surely it is not "what the FSF and others have been doing since the 1980s".
zigote:
> If you think I am trying to help anyone you are wrong.
Then you are just trolling. It's easy to talk tough about getting rid of capitalism. If you have any specific ideas on how to achieve that in practice, I'm all ears.
Just because someone points out that he is not trying to do what you think he is doing doesn't mean he is "just trolling". Check the meaning of the word before throwing accusations.
I am not interested in discussing further because this is neither on topic nor I have the time to re-clarify to infinity things when the other person is merely playing with words and twisting their meaning. Sorry.
Like this, if you don't respond to my posts, it would give people impression that, in this case, I asked you "Is there any differences?", you don't respond, but opened an other thread, so it would give people some impression. Do you guys think people such idiots? Then even if the people think so, it is not my responsibility, but yours.
If you care about "that gives software freedom activists a bad reputation outside our bubble", you should confute me. If your words are persuasive, I would change my mind and recognize your opinion.
Then I would tell you that clearly, to proceed discussion. People would not give the activists a bad reputation. If you become silence, people would give you a bad reputation. "He has not intention to proceed discussion, when it comes to inconvenient things, he ignores it and waits something". It is not totally my responsibility. Do I have to explain such a thing? It is common sense. In these cases, people would normally think the events as what they saw.
Disucussion exists to achieve the purpose or solve current problems. If we have the common purpose, discussion should proceed toward. What are you waiting? What is your purpose?
I know very well many inconveinient disccusion suddenly stopped or have igonored from the beggining in this forum. Is there something rules or something here that each person must not have own, personal opinion? or each person must not state freely the one's own personal opinion? Does someone restricts free speech? I am saying that if you have stated the word "freedom" once, why don't you take responsibiliy for your word until the end? I am afraid but frankly, if it is a fact, there would be so much that I want to say about how you guys are living your life, but let me say one thing, it is old fashion.
If I am refuted, I acknowkedge it meekly. It would not be an interesting thing but our primary aim is to achieve our purpose. I don't care of my pride so much, to achieve the purpose. But anyway, I think you must have expected my cruel counterargument. But please discuss super "directly" manlikely.
There are many people who like doing things which I have said "I don't like it" to them. By the way, there is no difference between that habit and raping, torturing, murdering, stealing, etc. These are all things which people don't like it if they were done. Besides, they are extremely persistent. Then I know very well there is no medicine for it and Why they do it, I know really well. Some of you guys would dislike things I do, but sorry, I think here is a proper place where speaking about freedom. Anyway I don't expect a sincere reply so lastly, it is not totally my responsibility. There are real worriers. They wouldn't think it is our responsibility neither, but yours. Are you waiting the storm passes? then start again? already? I know the purpose. OK, let us change this world. You wait it. Historically, wars are not ladies's job.
To be honest, I believe your post are sometimes not replied because they are hard to understand: long posts using long sentences, vague statements, an approximate English, digressions, etc. If, instead, you would write shorter posts, with sentences as short as possible, clear, to the point, ..., you would certainly get more replies.
I am a translator!
>To be honest, I believe your post are sometimes not replied because they are hard to understand
First of all I have nothing against the mate, but yeah, concision and clarity is what makes you read and digest any text. Without any of those, text is not text, it's pain.
Thank you for joining discussion. I hope you won't quit this discussion on the way. If you had some difficulty on the way, please tell me where you had difficulty to understand. I am sorry for inconvenient but we would be able to keep discussion if you could spare your precious time for me.
First of all, would you please tell me just few examples which posts did you have difficulty to understand?
I am going to show some your posts then explain something later but firstly I should understand well your difficulty for proceeding this discussion smoothly.
> I hope you won't quit this discussion on the way.
When you use the forum for posting lengthy speeches it is no longer a discussion but a monologue. If you are really interested in having a discussion be concise and clear (hopefully on-topic too, although this seems to be difficult on these forums).
RFC 1855 is a good reading to start with.
I see. But answering questions decently is etiquette, too. I will be able to show you their manners later. Some of you guys answer questions decently, I think. I am not talking about your manner.
Shall we open a new thread, sir? I think basically suggesting this is senior users's job, though.
You can't have a discussion without people interested in discussing. So:
1. Consider what people participating are interested in (forum section, topic)
2. Clarify for yourself if you are:
- answering or asking a question
- sharing something which may be interesting to others
3. Be concise and clear
https://trisquel.info/forum/libreshop-x200-sale?page=1#comment-140370 is an example (your post I replied to, in the first place). I must have read it four times. That takes time given its length and your English. The only thing I have understood is that you ask "Why don't you (zigote) reply to my post?", although that short question is not in your text. Instead, it looks like a long rant with many digressions. The main topic seems to deal with "discussions", but you start with "free software", ends up with "wars", going through "raping, torturing, murdering, stealing, etc.". I cannot tell what point you want to make. Maybe I agree with it. Maybe I do not. I just cannot tell.
From the current context of our discussion (You, Super Tramp83, zigote, me are disccusing), I think what you should have done first was answering this my question:
"Shall we open a new thread, sir?"
If you cannot understand why I think so, please ask me, I am glad to tell you it. What do you think about it?
Masaru, no bad feelings but you seem to talk more than you read. That's why you get so lost in these verbal waterfalls which seem to be a flood for more than one person.
If you have taken the time to read and understand what everyone told you, then you wouldn't need to ask repeatedly.
And to be explicit about your question - no, there is no need to open a new thread. I still think the best thing you can do before posting anything (in any thread) is to read RFC 1855. Trust me - it helps.
I had been working a overseas car shop which sells mainly classic sports cars for quite a long time. Some car was priced more than $3,000,000. I think I was trusted strongly by customers. You may know some customers's names. I don't think that I have special necessity to read it. It should be a matter of common sense. There must be no border line about manners between in the internet and the real world. But I might lack something. OK, I would trust you and read it. Thanks very much.
By the way, my name is Michrowarned.
It's not about trust or manners. It's about saying what you mean, in as few words as possible, and sticking to the point. Can I suggest a practice that may help? When you comment on a public forum, imagine you are speaking at a public meeting. In that situation, I doubt you would just stand up and start talking. Instead you would listen carefully to what's being said by others, reflect on it, and prepare your remarks before you get everyone's attention and deliver them.
So, when you comment on a public forum, here's what I suggest (and what I do). Write your comment as you normally do. Then, *before* you click 'save':
* re-read your comment aloud to yourself, along with the comment you are replying to.
* think about what point you wanted to make in response and ask yourself how well the comment you've written clearly expresses that point.
* edit. Remove every word that isn't absolutely necessary to help you make your point. If necessary, delete what you've written and completely rewrite it. Fix your spelling, grammar, and punctuation.
* when you're happy with your edited comment, click 'preview'.
* repeat this process until you can't think of a single way to improve your comment.
* if your comment is still longer than 3 paragraphs (ie longer than 9-15 sentences), consider posting it on your blog instead. Then you can post a much shorter TL;DR comment on the forum, with a link to the blog post.
* then, and only then, click 'save'.
This means you will spend longer writing a comment, much longer at first (you will get quicker with practice). But it means everyone else will spend a lot *less* time reading and trying to understand your comment. It also means you are more likely to get replies and that that those replies will address your point, because the person replying will be able to understand your point more easily. Also, the public record of your thoughts that you are creating will be a much better reflection of your thoughts and ideas.
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