Nobody lasts forever
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The Free Software Foundation has announced that Richard Stallman has
resigned as president, and also from its board of directors.
There are many capable people on the FSF than can continue
Richard's work, but for sure we will miss his enlightened steering.
Richard M. Stallman resigns — Free Software Foundation — working
together for free software
https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns
--
Ignacio Agulló · name at domain
The FSF is now less for having lost RMS.
My heart stopped for a moment. I thought he had passed... I hope there will be a new worthy successor if that is even possible.
I am a member!
On 09/17/2019 08:13 AM, name at domain wrote:
> The FSF is now less for having lost RMS.
I will miss him greatly. I wish I could help. The man lost his job and
everything. It's terrible.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
I am unhappy for this and I am agree with jxself.
Like Prometheus' gift of fire, RMS' gift of free software will now be carried on by mere mortals. I hope that the FSF will continue to do great work.
Just so the Free Software Foundation doesn't go the way of the Linux Foundation.
I nominate jxself for president of the FSF. I've always enjoyed his commentary and viewpoints on free software.
I second that. I think we need someone at least as dedicated and knowledgeable as jxself.
My fear is that some bad actor will come in and take the reigns. I really hope that we are able to carry the ball going forward from here.
I am a member!
On 09/17/2019 11:18 AM, name at domain wrote:
> Just so the Free Software Foundation doesn't go the way of the Linux
> Foundation.
>
> I nominate jxself for president of the FSF. I've always enjoyed his
> commentary and viewpoints on free software.
I never thought about jxself, but I think he would do a decent job if he
had the time to do it.
I would certainly trust him with the position.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
>
I nominate jxself for president of the FSF. I've always enjoyed his commentary and viewpoints on free software.
me to
I just had a peek at SFConservancys page on Twitter about this. So many trolls... My eyes are bleeding.
Yeah, the people jumping at the chance to throw RMS under the bus is worrying me. I dislike his stances on many things, and think that he is very anti-freedom on a lot of issues. But as for software, I look at him as kinda like a founding father. I'm worried that with statements like "RMS doesn't represent the free software movement", there are forces that will use it to move Free Software more in line with the Open Source ideals.
We know that Microsoft and others are trying to usurp the Openthisandthat as we speak... (Linux Foundation, Github, etc.)
I just want to point out that this didn't come out of thin air:
https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
RMS has been saying things like this for years, and only now he's being held accountable. It's about time. He's had so many chances to change already over the course of decades, and he didn't.
I see this as a good thing for the libre software community as I said here:
El 18/9/19 a les 1:18, name at domain ha escrit:
> I just want to point out that this didn't come out of thin air:
>
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
>
> RMS has been saying things like this for years, and only now he's being
> held accountable. It's about time. He's had so many chances to change
> already over the course of decades, and he didn't.
>
> I see this as a good thing for the libre software community as I said here:
>
> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/goodbye-rms#comment-143348
Conclusion is clear: sex and trafficking subjects are a solid reason to
abandon Trisquel. Ubuntu is more reasonable.
And to be really far from these controversy, even better Windows or Mac OS.
"Trisquel-users" mailing list is a solid help to get an opinion about
this GNU/Linux distro and really helps to use it better.
The way I see it, you are lost from the very moment you try to
defend someone's innocence - haters will inevitably profit from the
occasion to claim everybody is guilty, even you who did nothing more to
try to defend someone's innocence. That is a form of censorship, and
people defending freedom stand against it.
Selam G. deliberately misquotes Stallman as saying that the girl
was "entirely willing" - and she's not the only one, I read more
articles stating the same lie. Stallman never said that. The critical
statement from Stallman was that "the most plausible scenario is that
she presented herself to him as entirely willing". There is an abyss
between that and stating that the girl was "entirely willing". On one
side, the truth. On another side, the lie. Selma's article is in the
side of the lie.
Are you supporting this lie, Narcis?
--
Ignacio Agulló · name at domain
El 18/9/19 a les 11:35, Ignacio Agulló ha escrit:
>
> The way I see it, you are lost from the very moment you try to
> defend someone's innocence - haters will inevitably profit from the
> occasion to claim everybody is guilty, even you who did nothing more to
> try to defend someone's innocence. That is a form of censorship, and
> people defending freedom stand against it.
>
> Selam G. deliberately misquotes Stallman as saying that the girl
> was "entirely willing" - and she's not the only one, I read more
> articles stating the same lie. Stallman never said that. The critical
> statement from Stallman was that "the most plausible scenario is that
> she presented herself to him as entirely willing". There is an abyss
> between that and stating that the girl was "entirely willing". On one
> side, the truth. On another side, the lie. Selma's article is in the
> side of the lie.
>
> Are you supporting this lie, Narcis?
>
Please, use a new "RMS trisquel" mailing list to continue this
"full-of-sense" thread in current context.
There you will have very interested people to chat about RMS, antarctic
penguins and many other matters you want to develop.
Narcis Garcia, you seem to be confused about which mailing list you're on. Your comments are appearing on a thread on the General-Free-Software-Talk board on the forum, and I presume, the associated mailing list. I agree that this conversation would be off-topic on the Trisquel-users help forum/ list, but it's totally on-topic here.
> I agree that this conversation would be off-topic on the
> Trisquel-users help forum/ list, but it's totally on-topic here.
This thread started in trisquel-users. David must have moved it to
freedom-misc since then.
Ah, OK. I'm guessing this doesn't necessarily cause all replies on the thread to be redirected to the mailing list associated with freedom-misc? Or are you saying the complaint was made before the thread was moved?
> Ah, OK. I'm guessing this doesn't necessarily cause all replies on the
> thread to be redirected to the mailing list associated with freedom-misc?
> Or are you saying the complaint was made before the thread was moved?
Yes to both.
Oh dear. That must be annoying for mailing list users. I wonder if there is a way that moving a thread to a different board could automatically set up a filter on the listserver, that redirects mail with that subject heading to the correct mailing list? It wouldn't be a perfect solution, folks might change the subject header for example, but it might reduce the flow of misfiled email to a trickle?
> Oh dear. That must be annoying for mailing list users.
Eh, it doesn't happen often. As far as annoyances for mailing list users
go, I'd rank it well behind
* Not receiving posts from non-list users to the freedom-misc board for
the first year and a half. (Fortunately this has been fixed as of about
a week ago, when we finally received all of the missing messages at
once.)
* Forum users using the edit feature to add new information to their
posts. List users cannot see these edits. The original message is
already in our inbox and can't be overwritten, and we don't receive a
new message containing the edited post. (Nor would I want to receive 5
versions of a message because a user keeps fixing typos.) I ask forum
users to only use the edit feature to correct minor typos and improve
formatting, and put any new information in a new comment so that list
users don't get confused.
* Attachments. Attachments to forum posts are not received as email
attachments, and email attachments are not displayed as forum post
attachments.
Chaosmonk:
> Attachments to forum posts are not received as email attachments, and email attachments are not displayed as forum post attachments.
That sounds like something than can and ought to be fixed too.
As sad as I am that it's come to this, I can't really say that I'm surprised. Even though I agree with RMS on many, if not most things, I've always found him to be pretty unconventional, and can easily see how others find him totally controversial. It was only a matter of time. However, despite how anyone may feel about him, RMS and the FSF, GNU project, GPL licenses, etc. are giants whose shoulders many people - some unknowingly - stand upon. I'll always respect and wish him well.
With or without him, the fight for free software will continue!
What the heck is going on here?
I actually read people suggesting that RMS thoughts on some non-technological matter are enough of a reason to abandon a GNU/Linux distro... WTF?? How does any RMS opinion affect the way a GNU/Linux distro works? It's software one is talking about here, not opinions. Tor and I2P are sometimes targeted the same way. People don't want to use it because "bad people also use it". What does that mean?
Oh well, thanks for killing my hopes for humanity a little bit more today :P
I am a member!
> What the heck is going on here?
What's going on here is that software does not exist in a vacuum. It is created by groups of people, it is used by groups of people. We are political, and software is political due to that.
> WTF?? How does any RMS opinion affect the way a GNU/Linux distro works?
Profoundly... Trisquel takes a stance on which pieces of software should and should not be included in the distribution. This forum has a code of conduct asking people not to do certain things, not to use certain terms. These stances that FSF endorsed distributions take are directly as a result of RMS opinions. Just like with FSF there is a strong association. This requires very careful navigation.
I will also be leaving Trisquel at this point. This thread is playing out in a similar way to the Purism ones, with it being inferred that anyone not in the majority position on this forum hasn't read the source material etc. If the goal is to get a fully-free distribution in the hands of as many people as possible, which requires an inclusive approach to community building, then these threads will certainly damage that.
Relatively few people here contribute to the development of the distribution, website, documentation. I have been fairly involved in development of etiona for a few months, and have found the people I have worked with there to be considerate, helpful and respectful, even if I disagree with them on political issues / specific free software positions. It is a shame that the worthwhile efforts to keep pushing out Trisquel are overshadowed by a prominent public forum which is often not considerate, helpful, respectful.
Exactly what is needed in these times is tolerance and willingness to work together even beyond differences. Politics, belief-based views may change like the wind, but with a steady heart we can all just focus on the prize of a particular goal. I don't agree with everything any one person or group or ideal believes, but I do know that we need eachother and should not choose to be fragmented instead of together. I'm sorry to see that you have chosen to leave as you were amoung one of the most dedicated of us, as well as among the most capable to help keep all this going. All the best to you going forward.
That makes no sense. RMS was not even involved in Trisquel, so any political opinions of his are in no way affecting the development of Trisquel, the choice of packages included in the distro, the themes (wallpapers, icons, etc). I see NO REASON that I should stop using an OS that has no direct connection to a person, because that person has some political view with which I disagree.
I said it before, I disagree with RMS in many things. BUT his contribution for changing the technological world (and the society as a consequence of that) is far too big. The Internet exists relying on Free Software, Linux became the kernel of choice for most devices because it was made Free Software, projects like LibreOffice, Tor, Firefox, GIMP, and thousands of others are what they are BECAUSE they are free software and they rely on GNU-GPL and Copyleft to remain what they are... Smartphones, Android, the Internet itself, the way we use technology today was SHAPED by free software, and the Free Software Movement, and RMS himself. One cannot simply ignore that and put RMS in the corner as a bad person. He did more good than evil (lucky us, I guess).
But Trisquel remains operating the same way as it always did. Tor and Icecat too. LibreOffice also. Everything is the same. Why do you feel the need to leave? That makes no sense. What are you going to do, stop using Free Software altogether? Like "I don't use it because RMS said mean things"? Makes no sense. But to each his own.
Agreed. There should be some sort of limit to disassociating oneself from RMS should someone want to do that; otherwise the logical conclusion seems to be to remove oneself from anything he ever had anything to do with at all which would seem to mean that one has to stop using any free software at all and go use 100% proprietary software because the entire free software movement itself came from RMS and is also "directly a result of RMS opinions." That's absurd, of course, but it shows that there should be some sort of limit on this disassociation. Not agreeing with his positions that one doesn't agree with but agreeing with other positions (like free software) seems a sufficient line to draw to not have to go into absurdity to reject things merely because they came from him.
> What are you going to do, stop using Free Software altogether? Like "I
> don't use it because RMS said mean things"? Makes no sense. But to
> each his own.
Although I supported the FSF moving forward with a new president this is
not why I am leaving Trisquel, and I did not say that. I know that the
distribution is not RMS. I am leaving because I feel the nature of
community discussion here in general, across many topics, is having a
huge impact on the viability of Trisquel as a friendly distribution for
those who want to dip their toe into fully-free software. I have been
struggling with this since I joined efforts here.
> Agreed. There should be some sort of limit to disassociating oneself
> from RMS; otherwise the logical conclusion seems to be to remove
> oneself from anything he ever had anything to do with at all which
> would seem to mean that one has to stop using any free software at all
> and go use 100% proprietary software because the entire free software
> movement itself came from RMS. That's absurd, of course, but it shows
> that there should be some sort of limit on this disassociation. Not
> agreeing with this positions that one doesn't agree with but agreeing
> with other positions (like free software) seems a sufficient line to
> draw to not have to go into absurdity.
People can set whatever limit they are comfortable with - it will
understandably be different depending on personal views. Again, see
above. I have personally rejoined the FSF to support them as they move
forward... which is certainly not disassociating myself to the extent of
leaving free software.
I hope Trisquel continues, and grows. I just won't be part of that at
this time. All the best.
> discussion here in general, across many topics, is having a
huge impact on the viability of Trisquel as a friendly distribution
You are right.
What do you suggest? If it get harsh it is often
about people writing something that somehow
endorses or is about solving a non free software matter. You
cannot have that on this forum. This sets trisquel's forum
apart from many other gnulinux forums. Sometimes I have
pointed out, people should note how long a person they are
answering has been a member. Some members have problems
understanding how difficult it is for new members to think
only free software. There should not be any swearing.
It can degrade how people perceive this forum.
I have seen posts going in all directions. I have seen
questioners say, they cannot get a piece of hardware to
run on free software. The answer they may get, you got the wrong hardware.
Sell it. Buy free software complying hardware. A useless answer.
Which may make new members turn away from free software. People
often have their hardware when they get aware of the free software
principles. I proposed we should find a way to advice them. Also
if it resulted in them installing non free software. It did
not go further. One member asked a question which probably was
out of the scope of free software. And was pushed down. Likely
he just not understood the free software idea. A new member
asks how to, I think, get a piece of windows software to run. He
is told, non free software advice is not part of
this forum. Which was the correct response. And he returns
thank you for nothing. We should be better to introduce new
members to free software. Better at explaining. On windows
forums I cannot remember getting impertinent or rejecting
answers. On debian's forum, there are people who rather answer
with a link to a search engine, than stay out of a post.
They have lost track of what people find difficult. It seems
the gnulinux sphere is worse on manners.
If there are allusions to how I have discussed
purism then I stated my arguments and because my arguments were
not countered, then I could not agree on the notion
that different opinions on the matter have the same value.
> On windows forums I cannot remember getting impertinent or rejecting answers.
As long as you don't mind that the M$ reps in the M$ troubleshooting forums are constantly saying "here's the official way to try to fix that problem that we caused that is making your multi-thousand dollar machine run incorrectly. There are probably unofficial ways that work better, but I'm not going to tell you any of them. Now get off my lawn."
They aren't impertinent. They just already have the customer's money and have no reason to really assist them.
And then there's Apple, where customers get the privilege of paying hundreds of dollars up front for support, and then trying to make an appointment at the genius bar, driving across town to be told by an untrained "genius" that they "can't help you - you just need to pay a few more thousand for the latest shiny-shiny Apple replacement product".
Given the current tech environment, I think that the approach of brutal honesty without sticking a hand in the questioner's wallet is probably a refreshing change for a lot of people.
> M$ reps in the M$ troubleshooting forums
You are sidetracking. It was about
how people communicate with
each other. None of the forums I
was referring to are official windows
forums.
> You are sidetracking. It was about how people communicate with each other. None of the forums I was referring to are official windows forums.
You didn't mention that, so no reason to accuse me of "sidetracking". Besides, there are lots of non-official M$ forums where people say nasty things to each other. Now you are just generalizing in order to try to make some mysterious point about how Trisquel forum is "bad" or something, which is untrue.
I am a member!
On 09/18/2019 07:37 AM, name at domain wrote:
> I will also be leaving Trisquel at this point. This thread is playing
> out in a similar way to the Purism ones, with it being inferred that
> anyone not in the majority position on this forum hasn't read the source
> material etc. If the goal is to get a fully-free distribution in the
> hands of as many people as possible, which requires an inclusive
> approach to community building, then these threads will certainly damage
> that.
I will continue using Trisquel. All my stuff works on it and continues
to work. I don't feel like wrestling with another distribution.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
> This thread is playing out in a similar way to the Purism ones
Glad to hear that the Purism community has refused on principle to join the witch hunt, unlike the GNOME Foundation and SF Conservancy.
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