Data protection vs useability
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I'm trying to have a better view of the whole libre computing goals.
In a nutshell, I understand the value of protecting our data.
but I'm not completely satisfied with web browsing usability.
The game is about harvesting our data (the new territories to conquer are our health and financial data).
The tools of the trade are flash (dying, but still there) javascript,
and centralized servers which contain the data we give to the service (think GAFA).
I've heard recently a few objections that should be in the FAQ:
- "But I have nothing to hide (in a "you're paranoid" voice tone)"
It's not the point, the point is the potential misuse of the data, like history showed us (the Stasi, for instance).
- "It's not concerning us directly. There's no one killed because of leaked data in Europe for example."
That's a retarded/selfish comment, but oh so human... The best thing would be convincing examples in "free" countries.
- "There's nothing we can do. Plus they'll always find a way to get our data anyway. They have supercomputers and stuff like that."
There are solutions. Trisquel or Debian, Tor, a VPN, no javascript. Using decentralised alternatives like Diaspora, or having a personal server.
Anything is better than nothing. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing.
Putting JS back on for a few selected services (yeah, even facebook, though click-jacking is possible) is not the end of the world.
Compromise is ok if the harm is already done (facebook knows me too well already). Doesn't mean I don't plan to switch to an alternative, but it's meaningless if my contacts don't as well.
I can understand the feeling of helplessness because of the technology's complexity though.
- "But it's too hard to implement. Plus without javascript (and don't tell me about LibreJS), the internet is broken."
I have a hard time to argue with this one.
I don't see myself telling my father (who barely knows how a mouse works) to install his own server,
or even to use Trisquel on his own (Windows is already hard for him, and it's more automated than a libre distro).
I don't see myself telling non-initiated people like him to give up on using the websites they're used to,
or to navigate on broken (javascript-less) pages.
Trisquel/Debian are still a good alternative,
But when I open a thread called "your privacy strategy" (or something like that),
that's what I actually meant.
I think flexibility is vital, but to spread the word of libre software, it must be more accessible IMO.
I'm a decently experienced user, and since I've chosen to disable JS completely,
I can't even watch gifs, flash videos, and navigating through html pages (css is not there sometimes)
is not a pleasant experience.
It's kind of like browsing the internet without the internet,
and when it's not working, I spend hours to find a way to make it work, without success sometimes.
Most people would have given up waay before that, even if the price is bondage.
I'm not writing this to complain, nor am I leaving Trisquel.
I'm just arguing that the goal should be improved useability.
BTW, I can't install Vimperator on newer Abrowser or Icecat versions.
Just a tiny example. Maybe it's the same with Firefox or chrome, I don't know.
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you *can* watch gifs without js.
stay libre!
"I can't even watch gifs,"
you can(cant you..?)
"flash videos"
normally you can.
see here:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/play-videos-without-using-flash
", and navigating through html pages (css is not there sometimes)
is not a pleasant experience."
i am using icecat and have no such problems with html/css
what browser are you using?
"I'm just arguing that the goal should be improved useability."
this is i think one of the main goals of the trisquel project to have a fully free user friendly gnu/linux distro
so i agree with you
The only videos i've had to give up are facebook videos and facebook games lol. Other then that not using flash is barely noticeable for me.
I'm making an effort to use torbrowser more starting yestrerday, for most of my web browsing, although on trisquel videos dont' work in it for me. I have no clue why. On other distros tor browser always played videos in all pages in html5. On trisquel i have to install the the html5 everywhere plugin, which only works on youtube. Which is the only place i really watch videos anyways.. but i'm not sure if that extension compromises the anonymity.
As far as usability, Trisquel is much easier to use compared to alot of gnu/inux distros with blobs. I keep telling people its like ubuntu or mint without the spyware. I'm really not sure what they can do to make it easier to use.
If you are still facebook used you can watch videos on Abrowser in their mobile version. That is what I used to do when I was a Facebook used.
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+1 for **used**
I made my decision to leave facebook public, while suggesting Diaspora as an easy replacement.
So far, one person switched, and I'm talking about a libre computing enthusiast...
Either way, in a few weeks, I'll delete my account.
I'll try to convince my other contacts without being heavy about it, and without sounding like a conspirationist freak.
I'll have to make sure my communication comes across properly. And convincingly.
In explanations, start with the "why," then the "how," then the "what."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA (Use youtube-dl or mpsyt.)
Thanks, I'll check it out once I update avconv (youtube-dl doesn't work without this updated).
For now I went with the "how" (simple and easy), the "why" is harder. Besides gathering facts and making all that compact enough to have enough punch (without being sensationalist), I don't see other options.
No idea what the "what" can be, I'll check the video at some point anyway.
EDIT: I tried again, it still says that avconv is outdated and will not mux ("mix", I assume) separate video and audio file. Yet this time I got the download.
About Facebook: for now I just pasted some links, and I'll stay there a few weeks so people read it. I don't really expect them to switch from facebook. I just want to provoke some rational thinking.
I figured out that I can download some gif that don't work right off the bat.
It's annoying, but acceptable (maybe I could automate through scripting that it opens in a new tab after the download or something).
But I can still find some that demand some javascript. No way around it for now.
Flash videos, well I only have Greasemonkey with the Viewtube script, which was perfect on youtube so far, until I figured out that Noscript had youtube.com and googlevideos.com enabled.
I still ca download the videos though.
I'm willing to try the other plugins, but aren't they offering the exact same functionality?
(Actually I tried several of them, none worked for me on youtube until greasemonkey.)
Regarding the css not always working (using both Abrowser and IceCat), it might be because of the request policy plugin.
Maybe for some reason the css is requested from somewhere else, like an external image. It's not simple to know what to enable, and why.
cooloutac, watching videos on Tor is not recommended because it is slow,
and also slows down the traffic for everyone else. (You're of course free to keep doing it anyway, but at least you're aware of it.)
Regarding Trisquel's usability itself,
I have nothing much to say (maybe a compact intro to GNU/Linux, the command line, the file system, scripting, some basic stuff like that would be interesting).
It's the web browsing experience (without javascript and with other anti-tracking plugins) that still feels incomplete,
provided it's a good practice to disable it as much as possible.
Noscript and Request Policy are hard to use because I'm not sure about what I'm enabling, even after looking for it.
I'll stay libre, because I can't go back, and also because GNU/Linux is really impressive and interesting.
But secure and confidential web browsing is not fully working for me yet,
and demands too much tweaks for the average user who wouldn't even try past the first few problems.
Hell, even I, after many trial & error, can't fully make it work.
Libre, confidential browsing without limitation (and without too much headache to setup).
That would be even more awesome.
"I figured out that I can download some gif that don't work right off the bat.
It's annoying, but acceptable (maybe I could automate through scripting that it opens in a new tab after the download or something)."
i don’t know why your having problems heres me looking at cats:
http://92.19.232.58:82/files/cat_gifs.ogv
do you have the same problem on other browsers?
"Flash videos" + "I'm willing to try the other plugins, but aren't they offering the exact same functionality?"
this is a video covering alot of plugins you can use to view flash videos without non-free software:
https://goblinrefuge.com/mediagoblin/u/onpon4/m/tutorial-watching-videos-without-javascript/
"I still ca download the videos though."(asssuming you ment cant download videos)
you should also try to use youtube-dl-gui incase for whatever reason you cant view a video with viewtube:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/play-videos-without-using-flash
Sorry for the typo, I actually CAN download most youtube videos without js for now, even with RequestPolicy and NoScript fully on (which breaks the css when I prevent ytimg.com on RequestPolicy).
for other websites, I need to let some js through for now.
For example, I need to let imgur on with NoScript.
And I can't access the link you gave me on either browser because noscript doesn't allow it. I need to let the ip adress through.
Thanks for the links, I'm on it.
---
Ahh, cats... The true building blocks of the www.
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Also, if I want to watch youtube videos directly (without downloading), I need to enable youtube.com in noscript, googlevideos.com (in both plugins), and ytimg.com (in both plugins).
---
I heard of a plugin called policeman or something, similar to request policy, but it can let through images by default.
But I can't find it as a suggested add-on in Abrowser, so I don't know what to think of it.
Your browser problems have nothing to do with being libre though because you would have the same issues on any operating system. Its frustrating and overwhelming for the best of experts. After a while from experience you can take better guesses at what domains you have to allow for certain functions on a webpage and which are just trackers. If you are worried about noscripts whitelist....delete all the whitelisted pages in settings. Thats good security practice anyways because a hacker did demonstrate a couple weeks ago that one of the white listed certs or addresses had expired and he bought it for 5 dollars and put malicious code on it and noscript was whitelisting it.
As for watching videos on tor, it never seems to be a problem, but i really don't use tor much except for logging into and clicking links from websites like this one, since its associated with people on IRC, as one example.
That's a very, very good point, thanks. I was so focused on "libre browsing" that I missed this simple fact somehow.
I'm starting to get used to Noscript and RequestPolicy.
I'll try to find a way to let the latter allow images and css by default though (or a good alternative). Thanks for the whitelist cleaning tip.
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try SMTube for streaming YT vids and also set it so the right click of the mouse downloads the vid with youtube-dl. simple, fast and comfortable!
Thanks, I'll try it.
Is it better than my current setup?
I have noscript and requestpolicy running, and I sometimes allow some javascript through in order to either watch online or download, if I can't watch.
SMTube can work with zero javascript?
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SMTube is not a plugin for your browser but...
SMTube is an application that allows to browse, search and play YouTube videos. Videos are played back with a media player (by default SMPlayer) instead of a flash player, this allows better performance, particularly with HD content.
You will need to install the latest version though (the one in the Trisquel repo does not work). You can download the .deb from the website but I highly recommend you compile it from source (it's easy). The latest source is here -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/smtube/files/SMTube/15.5/smtube-15.5.17.tar.bz2
I can't find any signature to verify the sourceforge download, nor any info on searx. Is that normal?
Ok, so by default there's no js.
And since it doesn't work with any online video,
youtube-dl, as a program, is supposed to work without js as well, right?
I doubt a bit about that since when I put a URL in, it displays images where it doesn't if I disable js.
I got it from the ppa and it works for now, should I compile anyway?
You didn't need to add a ppa, its in the official repos. It works on most websites for me. All I do is type, from the command line, youtube-dl videourl.com and presto, it puts it on the desktop. I think there is a player in the repos that will stream with it too, you'd have to ask in #gnu
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I think trusting ppas and external (to your OS repository) .debs is a naive way of doing your computing. Giving root privilege at the installation to some random software is not a very bright way to go. But then again that's just me.
SMTube just like minitube (which now requires a google api key to perform the installation) doesn't require js and it is an application separated from and external to your browser. No js and no flash. It just allows you to browse and search for the YT vids, it then opens the vid with your video player of choice (vlc, smtube, totem etc..) and also to download them (with a nifty trick, being that YT new policy forbids to the developers to include the function to download the vids by default).
cheers!
p.s-> on how to download the vids from SMTube: http://blog.smplayer.info/how-to-download-videos-with-the-new-smtube/
Well its best to only use ppa that are well known and used by many, and are by reputable maintainers.
I would never recommend some obscure software from a ppa noone has ever heard of it, but imo it is indeed best if he just uses youtube-dl from the offical trisquel repos. Its also very easy to use.
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I was not talking about youtube-dl. I know that package is in the repos. I was referring to smtube. The version of smtube in the repos doesn't work. He will have to compile it or trust the deb.
youtube-dl doesn't work for me yet, I probably did something wrong.
I'll try again, but first I'll delete my ppas and start to learn how to compile if I can't get it from the repo.
My quick experience with smtube seems great for youtube (at least I don't have to allow any js). But not so much for other websites. Well if youtube-dl works (I mean with any website or so), that should do it.
ya its in the official repos, I haven't had problems with it yet. What website are you trying it on?
Only time it didn't work for me was on espn.com, but thats understandable. You have to sign in with your cable company account to view it, it was a live stream, and its probably drm or something.
I use html5everywhere to watch videos on sites like Youtube on Abrowser's default player. With proper gstreamer plugins and configuring Abrowser(enabling mediasource in about:config) you can watch HD videos.
https://trisquel.info/en/browser/addons/html5-video-everywhere
You can right-click and save videos you want to download.
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what plugins exactly? You mean it will be possible to switch quality by right-clicking the video, choosing mp4 as a format and then choosing higher video quality?
For example:
www.watchcartoononline.com/ (not working with https).
It doesn't seem to work with smtube. And it seems I didn't install youtube-dl properly, so I can't try yet.
It's a good example because it's horribly loaded with crap (and I don't mean the content, though I'm not entirely sure about that). There's so much javascript in here that it might know the blood type of my great grandma or something.
the pirate-bay is a good site for downloading just about anything including cartoons
btw i notice a while ago somone removed the pirate bay .onion link from its Wikipedia page:
before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Pirate_Bay&oldid=666749081
after:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Pirate_Bay&oldid=666749570
the history of the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Pirate_Bay&action=history
if anyone has a wikipeida account that can correc t this please do so(you have to of made 10 edits)
What's that onion link?
it doesn't seem to work for me.
I've read about some pirate browser, which seems overkill with a VPN.
As for the big list of adresses/servers, how do I know that I'm on a trustworthy one? I mean there's are the only official versions?
While we're on the subject, what's that GNUnet thing? I see it's some kind of file-sharing model, which has it's own GUI peer. Anyone uses that?
"What's that onion link?"
its a tor hidden service
you use tor to open it
https://www.torproject.org/
Ah I see, thanks. So the whole point is to be able to download the torrent file anonymously?
But then I'd have to download out of the Tor network anyway (since there's no way to use P2P through Tor anonymously), so what's the point?
" So the whole point is to be able to download the torrent file anonymously?"
it would not rely be anonymous as the pirate-bay only gives links to torrents you download outside the tor network
the reason why i use the .onion link is in some country’s including myn the pirate-bay is censored
and tor can bypass the censorship
Ah I see, it's a VPN alternative in that case. Interesting.
ye i can't find the actual url to the videos in the page source to use from that site. just some embedded ones that won't work. It sure is pretty sketchy too you're right lol. lots of ads and popups and scripts everywhere.
I never thought about locking the database access if some script(s) isn't enabled. Most likely ads.
I guess I'll try to find an alternative.
i'm not sure what you mean by locking the database access?
Like, preventing the access to the data (video in that case).
I mean when js is on, I must click on the ad to access to the video reader (to be able to press play).
Since the URL is locked until some js is enabled (and some ad is clicked), there must be some "if" condition to complete
in order to display the video player/URL.
I wonder if it's possible to bypass that.
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sudo apt-get install youtube-dl
to download a vid from any of the sites supported (https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html), you just need the url of the vid and in terminal:
youtube-dl url
example
youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMpGdG27K9o
This is how you compile smtube ->
being that the package "smtube" is in the repos you can take advantage of the command:
sudo apt-get build-dep smtube
On Debian 8 a further dependency was needed:
sudo apt-get install libqtwebkit-dev
Now you have everything you need in order to compile it. You cd to the folder of the source code and:
qmake
make
that will build the application and you'll find the executable in the folder.
If you want to install it system wide:
sudo make install
youtube-dl-gui is much easier to use than youtube-dl(for the average user):
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/play-videos-without-using-flash#youtube-dl-gui-tutorial
nice tks.
That's the commands I tried. And I do have the Git folder cloned, but no youtube-dl-gui. But it's fine though, youtube-dl just works.
did you get any errors installing?
also youtube-dl-gui currently dosent show up as a icon in your application launcher normally when installed
you have to run it from the command line with the command youtube-dl-gui
then you get the gui interface
I got the file, I extracted it, I'm in the right folder in the CLI, but neither qmake nor./configure are working for me.
The Readme.txt doesn't help.
My rights seem ok:
~/Téléchargements/smtube-15.5.17$ ls -la
total 88
drwxrwxr-x 6 merwancz merwancz 4096 mai 18 00:51 .
drwxr-xr-x 4 merwancz merwancz 12288 août 1 21:01 ..
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 0 mai 8 00:45 Changelog
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 206 mai 8 00:45 clean_windows.cmd
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 3218 mai 8 00:45 compile_windows.cmd
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 91 mai 8 00:45 compile_windows_portable.cmd
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 18328 mai 8 00:45 Copying.txt
-rwxrwxr-x 1 merwancz merwancz 346 mai 18 00:49 create_deb.sh
drwxrwxr-x 2 merwancz merwancz 4096 mai 18 00:51 debian-rvm
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 1678 mai 8 00:45 getrev.cmd
-rwxrwxr-x 1 merwancz merwancz 887 mai 8 00:45 get_svn_revision.sh
drwxrwxr-x 2 merwancz merwancz 4096 mai 18 00:51 icons
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 2640 mai 8 00:45 Makefile
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 1631 mai 9 04:04 Readme.txt
drwxrwxr-x 4 merwancz merwancz 4096 mai 18 00:51 setup
-rw-rw-r-- 1 merwancz merwancz 289 mai 8 00:45 smtube.desktop
drwxrwxr-x 4 merwancz merwancz 4096 mai 18 00:51 src
I'm out of options. Help please!
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Hi hack and hack. Make sure you have all the dependencies (libqtwebkit-dev included) and then just "make". That's all it takes to build smtube. No ./config or qmake are needed at all.
cheers
Thanks a lot SuperTramp83!
So the build-dep is supposed to get the dependencies, ok.
Then I'm supposed to get the package to compile from sourceforge.
And extract it.
But I found other commands in other tutorials, like ./configure and not qmake.
About the install system wide: that means for all users?
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