FSDG and phones running GNU

15 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

Sorry for the long post. I'm still working through my thoughts on this
issue and kept having more of them as I wrote.

This is spinning off of the discussion in the recent Purism thread, and
one paragraph will focus on PureOS, but only in order to raise a broader
issue. I don't want to start another debate about Purism here.

Once the PinePhone and/or Librem 5 ships, it will be possible to run
GNU/Linux on smartphones, which raises the question of which GNU/Linux
distributions people will run on them. Since these devices will require
firmware blobs, FSF-endorsed distributions will not be able to run on
them.

Purism promises that PureOS will run on the Librem 5, and at this time
PureOS is FSF-endorsed, but in order to for PureOS to run on the Librem
5 it will need to include firmware blobs, which will violate the FSDG,
which distros must follow in order to be endorsed by the FSF. Actually,
having looked through all of PureOS's git repositories to see what
modifications they make to Debian, I don't understand why they were
endorsed in the first place, as they have not addressed the majority of
freedom issues in Debian. I'll won't dwell on that though, as the
purpose of this thread is not to tear down Purism. The important thing
is that if Purism starts distributing PureOS with firmware blobs, it
will be even *less* FSDG-compliant than Debian, and thus presumably no
longer eligible for FSF-endorsement, based on the stance the FSF has
taken on other distros which include blobs. It's up to Purism and the
FSF how they handle that dilemma. What I want to discuss is how other
freedom-minded distros should handle the same dilemma when it comes to
the PinePhone and other future phones capable for running GNU/Linux.

On the one hand, distros which follow the FSDG already accept
incompatibility with certain hardware in order to avoid distributing
firmware blobs. By the same reasoning, it would make sense to accept
incompatibility with the PinePhone. On the other hand, whereas there is
alternative hardware we can recommend for better compatibility with
distros like Trisquel, it seems that we are likely years away from an
alternative to the PinePhone which can run a GNU/Linux distribution
which strictly follows the FSDG. In order to use the device, users have
to run *some* distro on it. Which would be better for their freedom: a
distro which includes the necessary firmware but otherwise adheres to
the FSDG, or a distro which does observe the FSDG at all? If we refuse
to target the only smartphones that can run GNU, and cede that territory
to the majority of distros who do not take software freedom seriously,
we might keep our hands clean, but are we really doing our best to fight
for user freedom?

I am not saying that a distro like Trisquel should include any firmware
blobs. That would send the message that those firmware blobs are no big
deal. If the most freedom-minded distros and users stop caring about
freedom at the firmware level, there will be less demand for
free-software-compatible hardware, so it is important for those distros
to stick to their guns and hold out for devices that can run blobless.
I wonder though, if there isn't also a place for a distro that navigates
a middle path between Trisquel's approach and the approach of most
distros.

It seems that the distros I have encountered tend to fall roughly into
one of these categories freedom-wise: (a) distros like Trisquel which
not only reject all non-free software but even reject or modify free
software which induces the user to install non-free software, (b)
distros like Debian (main repo only) which exclude non-free software but
do not otherwise take steps to avoid guiding users toward non-free
software, (c) distros like Fedora which reject non-free userspace
software but will accept non-free firmware and do not take steps to
avoid guiding users toward non-free software, and (d) distros like
Ubuntu which accept non-free software at both the userspace level and
the firmware level and actively guide users toward non-free software.

I do not know of any distros who default to the FSDG in most
circumstances, compromising only in specific situations after careful
consideration of the consequences, and with the intent that these
compromises are temporary. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any
examples where it would be worth compromising at the userspace level,
but at the firmware level, each decision about what non-free firmware to
include would have to consider certain questions: How crucial is the
hardware to having a usable system? How difficult is it to replace the
hardware in question with more freedom-friendly hardware? How many
years away are we from having a free replacement for the firmware or
hardware? How many users need this hardware component to work? If the
hardware doesn't work, how hardcore does the user need to be to stick
with the distro, and if they do, will their workaround actually be
better freedom-wise? How many users really need us to provide the
firmware? Can the ones who really want it install it themselves?

Here's an example of what that decision-making process might look like
for a smartphone whose screen, WiFi, and Bluetooth all require non-free
firmware:

The screen is crucial to having a functioning system. Until it seems
that there will in the near future be a phone running GNU that doesn't
need blobs for the screen, there seems no choice but to include this.

WiFi is not crucial to having a fully functional system, but Internet
access is, so consider what the workaround will be if WiFi is absent:
In order to access the Internet, the user will probably use the modem,
even in situations where they did not otherwise need to connect to a
cell tower. If the phone has a kill switch for the modem, this will
result in the user having the modem enabled a greater percentage of the
time, so they will be tracked more often, which is bad for privacy. The
software running on the modem is completely proprietary, so the job of
connecting the device to the Internet will still be done using
proprietary software. Since the most probable outcome of excluding WiFi
firmware is worse privacy and no better freedom, there is a good case to
be made for including it.

Bluetooth is also not crucial to having a functioning system. Audio is,
and Bluetooth is commonly used to connect to audio devices, but this not
the only way to have working audio. In addition to using the phone's
internal speaker, users can connect to many audio devices via the
headphone jack without using any non-free software. Unlike the WiFi
firmware, many users will be able to do what they need to in a
freedom-respecting way without the Bluetooth firmware. Since the device
can be functional without Bluetooth, it may be possible for some users
to install the firmware themselves even if the distro doesn't provide
the firmware for them and in doing appear to condone it. Some users
will reject the distro over it, but trying to please every user is a
slippery slope toward compromising on everything, so maybe it's better
to focus on users who care about freedom and might be willing to
compromise when necessary, but would prefer not to. Compared to the
screen and WiFi firmware, a decision to include the Bluetooth firmware
should probably be more heavily scrutinized and debated.

I know that the suggestion that any distros should ever facilitate the
use of non-free firmware is likely to be controversial here. I hope
that as an active community member and contributor here it is clear that
I care about Trisquel's values and would not open this discussion with
the intent of undermining them. I see current state of hardware
compatibility with free software, especially in the emerging case of
smartphones running GNU, as a very complex situation, and as I continue
to work through my own thoughts on the issue I would like to hear other
people's perspectives.

GNUser
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Beigetreten: 07/17/2013

Well said, you raise good questions chaosmonk. There is no easy answer to those questions, but I will give my thoughts...

Apart from not using a portable phone, what are the options right now?

a) using a dumb-phone, which basically means you can only send/receive texts and calls. You lose many usable features and are not protected (dumb phones can track your position, the modem presumably can activate the microphone remotely, your texts are send in the clear...). It's a worse situation.
b) using a smartphone, which can be:

b1) Replicant phone, meaning you lose GPS, Wifi, Bluetooth, and still have the modem inside tracking you. At least you can use some of those features of a smartphone, but you are seriously limited, and are you really that much protected? Sure, you can encrypt texts and maybe even calls, but there is still the tracking, microphone, etc. This would be like running Trisquel in a non-librebooted device;
b2) LineageOS or some other open-source ROM, which is similar to using Fedora. You get more usability, and I suppose the dangers are the same as above in b1;
b3) Using stock rom, full of proprietary junk. This is like running Ubuntu, which is the worst case scenario;

So basically we have to look at the Librem 5 or PinePhone devices and see where do they fall in those categories? There will be blobs in any case scenario, the question is which is better, to run LineageOS or Trisquel (Android vs GNU/Linux). Best option is still Replicant, but there is no a lot of offer in that regard. So having a Trisquel+blobs option would be second best.

Just my 2 cents.

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

GNUser:
> This would be like running Trisquel in a non-librebooted device

Mental note: remember to install Libreboot when I get back from my trip. Would anyone be willing to get on chat sometime after March and talk me through it?

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> Mental note: remember to install Libreboot when I get back from my
> trip. Would anyone be willing to get on chat sometime after March and
> talk me through it?

It's quite easy on the X60. No external flashing required, just a few
terminal commands. The libreboot documentation appears overwhelming
because they explain everything that the commands do, but if you just
want to get it done follow a video like the one I linked to here.[1] If
anything is unclear let me know.

[1]
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/bought-ibm-thinkpad-x60-giving-librebooting-it-now#comment-140767

nadebula.1984
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Beigetreten: 05/01/2018

There are increasing anti-features in new hardware, and it's increasingly difficult for us to defend ourselves against tyranny.

Why? Because the "rights" (actually, power) wielded by manufacturers are granted by laws (DMCA and patent laws, to name just a few).

And what do laws serve? The governments and the capitalists backing them. So the freedom issue is unsolvable in the current capitalist/imperialist world.

When will software freedom be realized? The Three Prime Evils (US, China, Russia) must fall before this. (Regrettably, two of them were once socialist states.)

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

> handle the same dilemma when it comes to
the PinePhone

I asked on postmarketos' irc. They told me the
postmarketos image will be free software
except for the wifi card software. About the
wifi card's non free software you can decide to not
get that part of software into the pinephone's postmarketos
image when you compile the image.

I have previously had a discussion with you about
how expedient it can be to take a debian system, then
adding non free software, turning it into ubuntu.
Then removing non free software turning it into
trisquel. I had to accept that apparently there is no more
efficient formular to get a free software distribution.
Still I do not understand why an arrangement with debian
cannot be made, such that debian itself can become
a free software system. If both fsf and debian would
moderate some positions then it should be possible.
During installation it may ask for non free
software getting installed to get network connection. Debian
should display a warning saying do not install the
file in question if you want a free software system.
And fsf should accept that displaying such a message
stops people from unwillingly installing non free software
and therefore the matter does not stop debian from
being a free software distribution.
The matter of firefox pocket should be solvable. Either
by removing firefox pocket or displaying a warning that the
firefox pocket server works on non free software.
The matter of debian's non free software repositories
should be solved with warnings such that you do
not enable non free repositories not knowing you
are doing just that. And fsf should accept that solution.

About replicant I have aired the suggestion, a phone sold
in millions should be selected, samsung s7 could be
an option, and a replicant version containing non free
software such that all devices on the phone runs,
should be made. Then calling the system replinonfree.
Because I have seen no documentation that lineageos
search for surveillance software in their system, I do
not equate lineageos and replicant. I understand if
replicant programmers refuse to make a replinonfree version
but I still believe it should be made because it
would be better if people would use replinonfree than
android, ios or lineageos.

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> I asked on postmarketos' irc. They told me the postmarketos image will
> be free software except for the wifi card software.

Are you referring specifically to the postmarketos image for the
PinePhone? The PinePhone is supposed to have Bluetooth and GPS too.[1]
Does this mean that Bluetooth and GPS will work with free software, or
does it mean that GPS and Bluetooth will not work with the PostmarketOS
image?

> About the wifi card's non free software you can decide to not get that
> part of software into the pinephone's postmarketos image when you
> compile the image.

Yes, and as I said, I'm not convinced that excluding the WiFi firmware
would really be better for user freedom, since it just passes the buck
to the modem.

> Still I do not understand why an arrangement with debian cannot be
> made, such that debian itself can become a free software system. If
> both fsf and debian would moderate some positions then it should be
> possible. During installation it may ask for non free software
> getting installed to get network connection. Debian should display a
> warning saying do not install the file in question if you want a free
> software system. And fsf should accept that displaying such a message
> stops people from unwillingly installing non free software and
> therefore the matter does not stop debian from being a free software
> distribution. The matter of firefox pocket should be solvable. Either
> by removing firefox pocket or displaying a warning that the firefox
> pocket server works on non free software. The matter of debian's non
> free software repositories should be solved with warnings such that
> you do not enable non free repositories not knowing you are doing just
> that. And fsf should accept that solution.

I would love it if Debian were to take steps to obtain FSF-endorsement.
Even if it required the FSF to compromise and relax the FSDG a bit, I
think it would be worth it.

One thing this would require is for the FSF to agree that Debian's
non-free and contrib repositories are not part of Debian. Debian claims
that they are not, even though Debian packages the software in these
repositories, hosts them, and provides documentation on how to install
it. According to the FSF, this isn't good enough.[2] Maybe it would be
good enough, if Debian were to make sure that no packages in main,
whether software packages or documentation packages, make any reference
to the non-free or contrib repositories. It might also help to create
separate out the documentation on their website, so that there is a
"main" documentation that does not reference repositories which are not
supposed to be part of Debian."

The other large issue is software in main that installs or guides the
user toward non-free software from outside of Debian. In some cases
this can be addressed easily by modifying the package. For a simple
example, see unp.[3] Only one small change is necessary: Remove from
the package description "You may also want to install some non-free
packages like "unace-nonfree", "unrar-nonfree" and "lha" to extract
archives of these types." In other cases, the fix is not so simple.
Snap is very problematic. Since Snap is centralized, one cannot replace
the Snap Store with a repository containing only free Snap packages.
Trisquel's solution is to remove Snap entirely. Perhaps if Debian were
to move packages like Snap to contrib, that would be good enough for the
FSF.

> About replicant I have aired the suggestion, a phone sold in millions
> should be selected, samsung s7 could be an option, and a replicant
> version containing non free software such that all devices on the
> phone runs, should be made. Then calling the system replinonfree.
> Because I have seen no documentation that lineageos search for
> surveillance software in their system, I do not equate lineageos and
> replicant. I understand if replicant programmers refuse to make a
> replinonfree version but I still believe it should be made because it
> would be better if people would use replinonfree than android, ios or
> lineageos.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, Replicant not only removes
non-free firmware from LineageOS, but also researches and fixes privacy
issues, and there should be a distribution for people who want to use
newer hardware than Replicant supports, but also want to benefit from
Replicant's privacy enhancements. Is that correct?

[1] https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/

[2] https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

[3] https://packages.debian.org/buster/unp

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

> Bluetooth and GPS will work with free software

postmarketos people told me, the pinephone image is free software except
for the wifi card software. You can compile the postmarketos image
yourself and decide not to add the non free wifi card software.
Then the postmarket image is free software. The gps device is part of
the modem which is a separated chip. And will require non free
software to work.

> researches and fixes privacy issues

I was overstating.
I asked on replicant's irc. There is no test or search for
monitoring software about replicant. While programming if something
monitoring is found it gets removed.

> distribution for people who want to use newer hardware

It might make more people familiar with the sphere of
replicant if a current phone model would be
available.

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

Chaosmonk:
> Maybe it would be good enough, if Debian were to make sure that no packages in main, whether software packages or documentation packages, make any reference to the non-free or contrib repositories. It might also help to create separate out the documentation on their website, so that there is a "main" documentation that does not reference repositories which are not supposed to be part of Debian.

I can imagine one roadblock for this being the massive amount of volunteer time that planning and carrying out such a transition would take. Perhaps it would help in any such negotiations if the FSF offered to mobilize volunteers to help with this? Even relative noobs like me can help with modifying docs, or with a bit of training, maybe even something more demanding. It could even lead to a few more people becoming ongoing volunteers for the Debian project, which would be a win-win for everyone.

zigote
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2019

Unless some country with strong democracy develops an open architecture for mobile communications anything that comes from "the land of the free" or from "the communist" China will be compromised.

chaosmonk

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

Hi Zigote, nice to see you around here again.

> Unless some country with strong democracy develops an open
> architecture for mobile communications anything that comes from "the
> land of the free" or from "the communist" China will be compromised.

I think that mitigations are not worthless and that addressing some
attack vectors is better than addressing none, but yes, you're right.

zigote
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2019
chaosmonk

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I am a translator!

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Beigetreten: 07/07/2017

> BTW did you know that:
>
> https://wccftech.com/samsung-risc-v-chip-14nm/

I didn't, thanks for the link. What do you think of it?

zigote
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2019

> What do you think of it?

There are many big companies investing in RISC-V. Perhaps their own need to be free from the proprietorship of other big tech (e.g. ARM) could itself be the way to making things more free. Who knows what will happen.

zigote
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2019

[duplicate post]

strypey
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Beigetreten: 05/14/2015

These are some really well thought out comments Chaosmonk. Thanks for sharing them. I definitely plan to get a Pinephone sometime next year. I would like to be able to use it with the most freedom that's technically possible.

I agree that the FSDG-compliant distros need to hold to their mission, which means not porting Trisquel etc to the Pinephone, unless and until fully free firmware can be written to replace all nonfree firmware for the screen, at a bare minimum. At that point, it might be worth at least exploring the potential for a Trisquel-Mobile variant.

I also agree that it would be good to have a new mobile distro that targets the Pinephone with a view to being as FSDG-compliant as possible, while providing all the basic functionality of a mobile device. Perhaps PostmarketOS could be used as a base, in the same way Trisquel uses Ubuntu as a base?