Hyperbola, is it possible to use this distro?
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Hi all . I saw Andy's post here https://trisquel.info/en/forum/hyperbola-part-2-beginners-guide-installation-w-dwm-window-manager on the forum about his detailed installation and someone wrote that his installation will not work in two years. I see that Andy is using DWM which was recently removed from the repository
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/?sort=&q=dwm&maintainer=&flagged=
I also see a mass deletion of programs from the repository https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=656&p=17
For example, OpenBSD has DWM and many programs that have been removed https://openbsd.app/?search=dwm
I was wondering if there are BSD systems with a libre kernel?
I am a translator!
DWM which was recently removed from the repository
I use dwm on all of my computers (together with MATE) but I cannot use the package because I use patches to configure it (to adapt to my keyboard layout, allow shifting tag with arrow keys and to make the MATE panel use all tags).
I was wondering if there are BSD systems with a libre kernel?
I have never used OpenBSD but from what I heard, OpenBSD is fully free as long as you don't run fw_update. However, it is probably run by default by the installer or by the /usr/sbin/sysupgrade script that is used at release upgrades, with no option to disable it (but fw_update -d should delete anything it may have installed). Besides, OpenBSD includes a lot of software for servers (like DNS, email, etc) but things like a graphical web browser may only be available as "ports", i.e. recipies to install software not packaged by OpenBSD, and OpenBSD web pages warn that this isn't check as well as OpenBSD itself and I don't even know whether these are all free software.
Remark: this discussion would be better placed in "General free software talk".
>"Remark: this discussion would be better placed in "General free software talk".
Agreed, but this thread will probably die out pretty quickly, as about the only people at all interested in this topic are probably you and I, and we have already discussed DWM fairly extensively elsewhere.
That would be wise...
I should also sadd, Hyperbola is still working on going alpha. They might have to change the roadmap timeline.
But anywho,sooner or later it will happen anyhow.
>"I see that Andy is using DWM which was recently removed from the repository"
Nowhere in that thread did I write that I used DWM from the Hyperbola repository. In fact, I specifically gave instructions in this comment for downloading DWM from the suckless.org git repo and building it, which is the way I've always used DWM: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/hyperbola-part-2-beginners-guide-installation-w-dwm-window-manager#comment-161820
I rather doubt that Hyperbola has ever had DWM in its repos, as it is unecessary to host DWM when nearly every DWM user will just build it themselves.
>"someone wrote that his [Hyperbola] installation will not work in two years"
Yes, my nearly 3-year-old Hyperbola installation guide probably needs some updating. Most distros undergo a few changes over a 3-year period. According to the Hyperbola installation guide [https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:manual:reference_installation], Hyperbola is now up to version 4.4, and the ISO download link has changed to this: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:downloads&redirect=1 . I recommend using the Hyperbola installation guide and maybe reading my installation steps side-by-side in case I mentioned something that would help to avoid a problem.
>"I also see a mass deletion of programs from the repository"
I'm pretty sure that like every other Distro, Hyperbola removes some packages and replaces their functions with other packages. Or removes packages that were not being used by anyone, or that did not fit with Hyperbola's policies. The number of recently removed packages looks pretty small to me, but I have not done a deep investigation.
>"OpenBSD has DWM and many programs that have been removed"
Hyperbola is not OpenBSD. OpenBSD is a radically different creature altogether, and I don't think the OpenBSD project has any interest in following GNU FSDG. And once again, I doubt any DWM users care if the DWM packages are in a distro's repo, as the whole point of DWM is to build it yourself and patch it to work the way you like.
>"I was wondering if there are BSD systems with a libre kernel"
No, not until Hyperbola builds its libre kernel. There was a libre-BSD kernel project that was active years ago, but my understanding is that the project was unsuccessful at completely libre-tizing and de-blobbing the BSD kernel. Hyperbola's stated goal has been to do exactly that, and thereby give an alternative to the Linux-libre kernel.
I use both Trisquel and Hyperbola on my computer.
I also use the Lumina desktop with Hyperbola.
It took me some time to get used to the Hyperbola install, seeing I mostly used Trisquel's graphical installer to install Trisquel.
Hyperbola does have a guide to help you install it.
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/Installation_Guide
And also a guide for setting up a desktop.
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:system:userspace:desktop_enviroment:lumina_desktop
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:system:display_servers:xenocara
may also help.
When installing both of these I installed Hyperbola first than Trisquel using it's graphical installer.
The deletion of some programs from Hyperbola's repository may be because those programs do not fit Hyperbola's lightweight system, or because some data can not be changed easily, or because of other policies of Hyperbola.
Though it still works well for me.
At
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:start
There is a "Philosophy" section on the left of the screen that may help explain some of Hyperbola's policies.
As well as
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:incompatible_packages
to show why some programs were removed.
Hyperbola also has git repositories at
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/
and
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/packages/core.git/
and
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/packages/extra.git/
as well as many more repositories at that page https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/
I can still build many packages even if those were removed, like minetest, as I can build minetest 5.4.1
and likely many other things that are not even in the repository.
The Hyperbola system uses a makepkg thing, I think for it's packages, like Trisquel uses apt-get
.
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:manual:contrib:packaging_guidelines
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=1069
HyperbolaBSD only uses parts of OpenBSD as it's base, but it is in independent from that, as it is a hard fork.
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?pid=7623#p7623
Hyperbola also uses code from other things than just OpenBSD as well as code, I think, made by Hyperbola's main developers.
Has more information about this hard fork.
HyperbolaBSD has no ties towards OpenBSD. I'm using Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre and Trisquel at this time.
Hyperbola is working on a libre kernel at this time.
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/hyperbolabsd/hyperbk.git/
Hyperbola also has a "roadmap"
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:manual:contrib:hyperbolabsd_roadmap
I think I tried Hyperbola in QEMU before I installed it on my computer's hardware.
There are also many other parts that Hyperbola's users are_making/can make.
Like Trisquel users can also help with parts of Trisquel. Or build things that are not in Trisquel's repositories.
Hello Andy
Thank you for your answer.
Your guides are very useful and I also used them as tips when I started the installation)) Thank you!
And here it is indicated that there is DWM, maybe this is an error))
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=656&p=15
Next to be removed:
libgtop
libwnck
alltray
intel-gpu-tools
peg
xstarfish
gpick
gcolor2
gcolor3
trayer
i3-gaps
yeahconsole
yeahlaunch
4pane
clifm
tinywm
karmen
ranger
atool
mediainfo
mediainfo-gui
libmediainfo
libzen
zile
conky-manager
libgee
highlight
highlight-gui
ueberzug
smenu
aumix
bitlbee
odt2txt
emwm
berrywm
avfs
bbmail
bbpager
bbrun
bbtime
wdm
windowmaker
wmail
wmbubble
wmcalclock
wmcpuwatch
wmdrawer
wmget
wmifinfo
wmpinboard
wmsun
wmsystemtray
wmwifi
wmwork
wmxres
libdockapp
evilwm
aewm++
enlightenment16
dwm
echinus
ctwm
oroborus
emacs-exwm
emacs-xelb
bup
python-twisted
tauthon-twisted
python-tornado
python-fuse
python-automat
python-jsonschema
python-service-identity
python-constantly
python-hyperlink
python-pyhamcrest
python-nbxmpp
python-pyserial
python-pyasn1-modules
tauthon-automat
tauthon-constantly
tauthon-hyperlink
tauthon-pyhamcrest
tauthon-service-identity
tauthon-pyasn1-modules
libffado
python-deprecated
python-wrapt
python-simplejson
python-msgpack
python-pynvim
neovim
solarus
dune
ocaml-csexp
ocaml-integers
ocaml-ctypes
ocaml-findlib
ocaml-result
ocaml-topkg
ocamlbuild
opam-installer
llvwm-ocaml
bmpanel2
cadubi
tutka
screen-message
gource
pacman-sdl
avrdude
udevil
spacefm-plugin-burntools
sysstat
bambam
python-pygame
boswars
fretsonfire
tauthon-pygame
tauthon-reportlab
tauthon-pillow
tauthon-opengl
widelands-legacy
widelands
stratagus
seatd
tbftss-the-pandoran-war
coccinella
tkpng
tktreectrl
But I agree that we use DWM to install:
$ git clone https://git.suckless.org/dwm
$ make
$ doas nmake install
As far as I understand the policy of this distro, you need to collect yourself what cannot be found in the repositories, and this is a very large number of packages
and there is no guarantee that this will be possible to do.
As for OpenBSD, I agree with you that this is a different distro and it seems to me more advanced than Linux... This is my personal opinion)
I didn't find libre-BSD but I found this project https://libertybsd.net/
>"As far as I understand the policy of this distro, you need to collect yourself what cannot be found in the repositories, and this is a very large number of packages and there is no guarantee that this will be possible to do."
Shouldn't need most packages. I've built LibreOffice for myself on Hyperbola using a [modified] Linux From Scratch build procedure.
>"As for OpenBSD, I agree with you that this is a different distro and it seems to me more advanced than Linux... This is my personal opinion)"
More advanced? Maybe more easy to secure some server software. The Linux kernel is pretty amazingly advanced. I can't think of any other kernel that can run such a bewildering number of devices.
I looked at the repository
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/?sort=&q=libreoffice&maintainer=&flagged=
Libreoffice is there, you can download and install it without assembling it, but if we are talking about a full-fledged working environment like in Trisquel, when you downloaded the ISO and can immediately work, then this does not work with Hyperbola. Almost every program that a user needs needs to be compiled, and it’s not a fact that there will be dependencies after there has been a mass deletion of programs, for example, the user needs a graphical XMPP client or a file manager when you connected a USB or SSD and can decrypt, etc.
I see that in your screenshot on the panel there is no volume, screen brightness, change of keyboard layout, etc.
Iceweasel-uxp browser seems to me better than ungoogled-chomium))
It would be great if the instructions you make included a complete list of programs for the user’s main tasks, at least like in Trisquel Mini or XFCE4.
As for HyperbolaBSD, it will appear in 2030 as stated on the site, so I was wondering what BSD systems can or could support a free kernel or close to it.
As for the equipment, for this list https://ryf.fsf.org/index.php/categories/laptops it’s not a problem to install a BSD system and if I’m not mistaken for Gnuboot too
https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuboot/web/docs/bsd/openbsd.html
Hello Other_Cody . Thanks for your detailed answer. It’s very interesting what you wrote about Lumina, is everything working well and stable for you? How long did it take you to set up your desktop? What file manager do you use and how do you decrypt USB and SSD? How did you manage to configure the panel with volume, brightness, etc.
Can you show me your desktop?
It seemed to me that Lumina is the most inconvenient thing you can use))
I was wondering if there is Lumina in Trisquel and I couldn’t find it
https://packages.trisquel.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=lumina&mode=exactfilename&suite=aramo&arch=any
I also didn’t find it in
Parabola https://www.parabola.nu/packages/?sort=&q=lumina&maintainer=&flagged=
and
Guix https://packages.guix.gnu.org/search/?query=lumina
Hello Avron. Thank you very much for your opinion.
As for programs, it seems to me that Hyperbola has the toughest selection...
>"As for programs, it seems to me that Hyperbola has the toughest selection..."
You can add the Guix package manager to Hyperbola and have just about any program you might like - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/hyperbola-04-running-ungoogled-chromium-luakit-and-icecat-browsers
It is important to know that Hyperbola's developers tend to claim that any program they dislike is not free. The list is huge. What they mean by "free" is unclear: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:community_software
They usually oppose to that excerpt of the free software definition:
Rules about how to package a modified version are acceptable, if they don't substantively limit your freedom to release modified versions, or your freedom to make and use modified versions privately. Thus, it is acceptable for the license to require that you change the name of the modified version, remove a logo, or identify your modifications as yours. As long as these requirements are not so burdensome that they effectively hamper you from releasing your changes, they are acceptable; you're already making other changes to the program, so you won't have trouble making a few more.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#packaging
Not always though. For example, the trademark policies of many programming languages, such as PHP, Rust or Java, are supposed to be the justification for their removal from Hyperbola. Yet Rust's trademark policy is essentially Python's and Hyperbola keeps Python. In the same vein, if Hyperbola would really refuse code "with any kind of company and / or corporation behind", it should remove most drivers. So the selection criterion is not only unclear but also incoherent.
The Hyperbola project is of course entitled to its own restricted selection of programs. Nevertheless, in my humble opinion, claiming the rejected programs raise freedom issues when they do not (by the standards of the FSF), makes much confusion, which is detrimental to the free software movement.
That's why I'm actually using Parabola instead of Hyperbola due to the flexibility of managing any F/LOSS programs avariable. And most of the cases, up-to-date.
However, I'm still intrigued about the avariability of utilities in their repos that are not so allowed like in Trisquel, Parabola and/or Guix. They try to be focused to be entirely to be KISS and easier to manage than Parabola itself. However, not everyone are ready to be tied-up to the KISS philosophy.
Actually, I'm actually testing Trisquel 11.0.1 in order to replace the Windows 7 Ultimate partition that I actually have in my netbook as the actual hardware works completely with FSF-endorsed distros like Parabola (the Parabola partition has been since four years since I replaced Arch due to the long time that takes to compile some programs and the Intel Atom N455 doesn't have the power enough to get compiling things).
>"claiming the rejected programs raise freedom issues when they do not (by the standards of the FSF), makes much confusion, which is detrimental to the free software movement"
If you really feel that way then I think you owe it to the movement to go on their forum and openly argue your points.
I don't see their work as detrimental at all. They are creating a very unique distro which as a result of its clean and minimal packages has some extreme advantages over a distro like Trisquel in terms of resource usage. I've learned quite a lot from my time with it, I find the distro to be highly beneficial.
Andy ,i think this is impossible, since the forum administrator would ban Magic Banana for his opinion if he wrote the same thing there))
There is only the opinion of one person (throgh) which cannot be disputed and even Richard Stallman has no right to do so
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=521
No support and if the free, libre software is only possible with this person
They are creating a very unique distro which as a result of its clean and minimal packages has some extreme advantages over a distro like Trisquel in terms of resource usage.
And Hyperbola is 100% free software. That is all good. I am not criticizing the distribution, which certainly appeals to some users. I am criticizing the redefinition of "free software".
Only on https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=656&p=17 (the last of 17 pages about "the roadmap after 0.4"), one can read that Subversion and Apache "are NOT free and libre" (the emphasis is throgh's), that "Apache-projects and the combined trademark-guidelines endanger free, libre principles", that "FSF is failing again its position as role-model given to show that there is not just only the license but also a social responsibility" because it endorses the WebM and VP8 formats, that any AV1 codec, including dav1d in VLC, "is not free and freedom itself", that with "so-called 'free alternatives' (Mastodon, PeerTube, Diaspora, Hubzilla etc.) [y]ou are all implementing illusions", that OpenArena "is not fully free and libre oriented", etc.
Those use of "free" and "libre" do not match the definition maintained by the FSF, which lists the mentioned programs and formats in its directory:
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Subversion
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:File_format
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/VLC_media_player
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Mastodon
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/PeerTube
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Diaspora
- https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/OpenArena
The same holds for the whole programming languages Hyperbola rejects (along with the programs using them, I assume):
That link to the hyperbola forum no longer works, and I can not find that thread in their forum unless I look on Internet Archive.
Part1.
Info about the secoundary Hyperbola things typed about after the main question about I was wondering if there are BSD systems with a libre kernel?.
I think shows information about this post. To better help explain things, as I think throgh from https://forums.hyperbola.info
may be having problems with register on this forum or is working hard on Hyperbola so as not to have much time to post on this forum.
So than personal as I have never gotten any possibility to register and attend in this discussion elsewhere
and
This reaction above is only a commentary because I did not even get any chance to register and answer direct.
https://trisquel.info/en/user/register
Maybe some javascript problems were at that page to register on Trisquel's forum, or throgh from https://forums.hyperbola.info
is just very busy working on Hyperbola packages, or something like that.
Maybe we/Trisquel could help throgh from https://forums.hyperbola.info
register on this forum if there are any problems with that, if needed/wished_for.
Though now updated/enhanced information on some Philosophy/other_pages may help more people as it is on the Hyperbola site.
So many people looking at that site can get more information about Hyperbola and what the main developers are working on, instead of posts on Trisquel's forum.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210917185602/https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=521
show information about this topic, I think, and the start of the other post.
The
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:community_software
has updated/enhanced information to show more information about the Hyperbola policies.
Partly about trademarks and/or patents. You can check the updated/enhanced information at the links for more/full information.
I think some company trademark policies have changed, or can quickly change, and also some forbid selling software without editing out many trademarks. Also there are/were copyright things typed about.
Though if anyone thinks it is not burdensome to edit some trademarks out, making a proof of concept by doing that could help show how easy it is. Than mantaining that fork can also help. If that can not be done very easily, than some trademarks may be burdensome to libre software.
Also at this time Python's trademark policy is not the exactly the same as other trademark policies as far as I know.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240521011851/https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=656&p=17
Part2.
Information about how I use some Hyperbola things at this time.
I use pmount and Insight File Manager when mounting USB flash drives and SD cards. I use pumount when unmounting them.
I see there is
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/extra/x86_64/pmount-safe-removal/
to have a safe removal of a device. So I can use and install that.
I use LXTerminal on Lumina as a terminal, or the terminal before Lumina boots up.
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/?sort=&q=LXTerminal
I use Volume Icon for volume control in Lumina.
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/extra/x86_64/volumeicon/
I turn on wifi/networking with
iw dev
ip link set
things
and
wpa_supplicant
and
dhcpcd.
Depending on "groups" at
man groups
you may be able to use these without root.
At least I think these are setup with "groups" things. Or could be.
If these are setup/used as root you can also use
logout
to logout of root
and into your user account.
after setting up
xenocara
I think
or/and a X thing
I use
start-lumina-desktop
to start the lumina desktop.
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:system:display_servers:xenocara
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:system:userspace:desktop_enviroment:lumina_desktop
The instructions to hyperbola.info
helped me to setup Lumina Desktop
and it's lumina extra
things.
Maybe also chmod +x .xinitrc
somewhere, as I had that written down, though maybe that was for something else.
I also used some things of a user called "jim" at Hyperbola's forum to test Hyperbola in a virtual machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240310181532/https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=933
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=933
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=934
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=937
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=7478#p7478
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=943
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=434
I do no know if any of these links were moved/removed, but these may help install Hyperbola.
I also asked some questions and got answers that helped from throgh about installing Hyperbola.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240310183203/https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=1005
Though later I also saw setting a date right may help as using
date -u
may help you see the "right" time if you set this as another time zone than you are in.
I likely showed have looked at Hyperbola's
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/Installation_Guide
better. Though my Hyperbola install still works well.
http://web.archive.org/web/20240705161822/https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?pid=8120#p8120
Part3
Lumina logout and more.
I first logout of the lumina desktop with "Leave" in it's menu, than left click "Log out" or "Power Off" to logout/exit the Lumina desktop.
Than depending on "groups" setting, I think, I can use "openrc-shutdown -p" as a user or switch to root and use it to turn off my computer in or out of the Lumina desktop.
I use BadWolf browser on Hyperbola and I think it can compile on Trisquel also.
I use "open link" to open it in the same browser tab and "open link in New Window" to open a link in a new browser tab, I think, when opening webpages in that browser.
Hello Magic Banana and thank you for your answer and interesting opinion.
I, as a user, asked the question why, for example, Trisquel or Parabola have some kind of program in the repository, but Hyperbola does not, and on their forum it is reported that this program does not comply with the rules of freedom or license, so they deleted it.
If we talk about languages, I found information on the wiki that the Hyperbola project does not use languages and programs
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:incompatible_packages
I just found out today how to shut down my computer using my user account instead of my root account in Hyperbola.
Before today I was using my root account in Hyperbola to
start wifi/any_networking,
start rc-service,
and yes, even to turn off my computer!
Maybe other things as well.
Because I did not know how to do it with a user account.
Now I can do many things as a user without root in Hyperbola.
I was doing it mostly because I even forgot "wheel" in groups.
As I did not know much about groups before some days before.
But also because I did not know about some other things.
I started learning about this when I thought a program had a problem, but instead the problem was mostly that I did not know the difference between when a service was running incorrectly or a program was crashing on my user account.
You can see these links to see the mistakes I was making, and how it was solved.
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?pid=8213#p8213
I also found out there is also a "groups" in Trisquel.
Root still technically powers off your system, since you must be in the wheel group to do so. With systemd (e.g., on Trisquel), you need not enter any password to fire that command:
$ poweroff
Thank you for that information.
I mostly click on the Trisquel icon in the Mate desktop than the Shut Down... in that menu.
Most of the time also clicking the Shut Down button in the menu that gets shown after, but I see poweroff in a terminal also works.