"J.B. Nicholson-Owens" and Trisquel site runners.

39 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

So, essentially, "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" has admin priviliges and can flout Trisquel's terms and conditions as s/he pleases. Not just with me, but with pretty much any user and the runners of the Trisquel site are cool with this. Despite writng this:

https://imgur.com/a/Miyij

This is very kind of "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" and Trisquel site runners who are probably one-in-the-same. How very cool of you guys. This is a great way to run a site. Thank you Trisquel site runners and especially ""J.B. Nicholson-Owens" who is quite marvelous.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Oh, you can see that "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" helpfully publishes everyone's contact info:

https://trisquel.info/en/users/jb-nicholson-owens/track

And for those who cannot view the Imgur link as posted, I was essentially highlighting what Trisquel writes when you use the contact form: "Personal contact form
Allow other users to contact you by e-mail via your personal contact form. Note that while your e-mail address is not made public to other members of the community, privileged users such as site administrators are able to contact you even if you choose not to enable this feature."

Nice one Trisquel! Way to go!

: - )

fbit

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 07/07/2013

I was always under the impression that e-mail addresses used on this forum are not private. Everyone who receives e-mail updates of posts from this forum can see the e-mail address of anyone who posts here, right?

In any case, why is it alarming that the forum admins have access to every member's email address?

Cheers.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Hi fbit (notice how I refer to you by your user name, not your email address or other personal details),

If you login to your account at Trisquel and click 'My Account', and edit your contact, you get the following message:

"Personal contact form
Allow other users to contact you by e-mail via your personal contact form. Note that while your e-mail address is not made public to other members of the community, privileged users such as site administrators are able to contact you even if you choose not to enable this feature."

So that when we post here, we are one user speaking to another user. Sort of like on Reddit or Slashdot. The Trisquel site goes out of their way to say that the contact info is kept private. And yet, it is posted in public. This is acting in bad faith. It is one thing when an admin can see your personal information, it is another thing when they post it publically without consent. For me, it is not too Earth shattering that my personal email is published. I am open about the fact I support Libre software, but I do not like it when admins post my info willy-nilly when they stated, as a condition, they would not do so. I did not consent to this and belived what the site posted about personal info. I am quite displeased with this behaviour.

fbit

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 07/07/2013

Hi I. Khider,

I understand what you mean now. I remember I had that happen a couple of times when someone quoted my post and included my e-mail address with the quote. It is certainly undesirable behavior and I was not pleased when that happened. I read David's reply to this post and I think what he writes is correct; i.e., not a malicious feature, rather a negative externality from mirroring the forum and the mailing list. Like David and yourself, I wish this undesired "feature" was corrected.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Plus one, bro (or sis). Fuggin' solidarity, yo. Yo-ality.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

It's much nicer when you can choose to out your gender or contact info instead of have a site helpfully do it for you, is it not?

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Whatevs.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

To clarify, I say "whatevs" to your comment. My comment about the Trisquel site still stands.

calher

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 06/19/2015

Start NetworkManager right now.

systemctl start NetworkManager.service

Make NetworkManager start when the computer starts, if it doesn't already.

systemctl enable NetworkManager.service

RMS is a senior citizen, and he wrote an entire operating system. :)

Jodiendo
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/09/2013

Sra. Heather said:

I'm old school too and proud of it. :)

I'm gong to troll you on this one WITH MUCH RESPECT,
iF YOU ARE CONSIDERING YOURSELF AN OLD SCHOOL, THEN i MUST BE A PREHISTORIC OLD GIZZARD OLDER THAN YOU..lol J/k

Ignacio.Agullo
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Beigetreten: 09/29/2009

On 22/11/17 10:57, wrote:
> I understand what you mean now. I remember I had that happen a couple
> of times when someone quoted my post and included my e-mail address
> with the quote. It is certainly undesirable behavior and I was not
> pleased when that happened.

I prefer to handle the messages through an e-mail client, it's so
much easier for me. However, it has this inconvenience - when you reply
to someone, like now, the e-mail client automatically quotes the message
and shows the authors e-mail address on top. I suppose that this is
what happened with this case.

As for myself, when I started doing that, people would tell me that
they didn't like that, and that I should edit the e-mail address out, so
I logged in to the forum and edited it out. Since then, I edit out the
e-mail address before sending the messages, like now. I suppose it
takes constant reminding.

--
Ignacio Agulló · name at domain

calher

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 06/19/2015

How do I do this? I'd like to just have a "Trisquel Forum" folder that I check every once in a while, so I don't have to bother logging in and stuff.

Also, is there a Mediawiki code for quoting messages that works on this forum? > is ugly.

ADFENO
Offline
Beigetreten: 12/31/2012

In senile email clients (and senile *user configurations* of the same
email clients), the clients should only cite the email address if the
"From" field has no friendly name.

On every forum I found so far, this friendly name is mostly absent in
the "From" field.

Assuming both your email client and your configuration for it are
senile, which is the default for most cases, your email client is
behaving correctly.

Here follows a message for those who are still unsure about usability of
mailing lists:

In one hand, if the website maintainers decides to go mad and say "OK,
we'll remove the mailing lists and use only forums", then people will
still get the poster's address anyways if the forum has notification
system. Furthermore, if the maintainers go the hardened route and also
decide to either remove the notifications or put a non-existing or
"noreply" address in the "From" field, then in the first case you lose
the email notifications, and in the second you lose the convenience of
answering by email (thus requiring everyone to use the website) just to
answer a "Hi". ;)

This was similarly discussed in libreplanet-discuss mailing list
sometime ago (see [1]).

The reference in [1] has both a link to that discussion and a
text written by the person who has the blog and which also appears in
the discussion, when person refers to "Contrast that with websites: if I
have to write anything substantial, I often have to write it in my
editor first and paste it in." this is *probably* because one will have
to reload the page *before* sending if writting an entire wall of text
directly in the web browser or taking more than 5min to do stuff,
because otherwise the website will tell you that "the connection
expired, do everything again".

Finally, also see the paragraph before the "Thank you." in [1], it's
more important nowadays than "responsible design" (web design term).

[1] .

2017-11-23T01:25:51+0100 Ignacio Agulló wrote:
>
> I prefer to handle the messages through an e-mail client, it's so
> much easier for me. However, it has this inconvenience - when you reply
> to someone, like now, the e-mail client automatically quotes the message
> and shows the authors e-mail address on top. I suppose that this is
> what happened with this case.
>
> As for myself, when I started doing that, people would tell me that
> they didn't like that, and that I should edit the e-mail address out, so
> I logged in to the forum and edited it out. Since then, I edit out the
> e-mail address before sending the messages, like now. I suppose it
> takes constant reminding.

ADFENO
Offline
Beigetreten: 12/31/2012

See my previous reply ([1]).

[1] https://listas.trisquel.info/pipermail/trisquel-users/2017-November/083076.html

2017-11-22T10:23:56+0100 name at domain wrote:
> Oh, you can see that "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" helpfully publishes
> everyone's contact info:
>
> https://trisquel.info/en/users/jb-nicholson-owens/track
>
> And for those who cannot view the Imgur link as posted, I was
> eseentially highlighting what Trisquel writes when you use the contact
> form: "Personal contact form
> Allow other users to contact you by e-mail via your personal contact
> form. Note that while your e-mail address is not made public to other
> members of the community, privileged users such as site administrators
> are able to contact you even if you choose not to enable this
> feature."
>
> Nice one Trisquel! Way to go!
>
> : - )
>
>
>

--
- https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, veja formas de se comunicar
instantaneamente comigo no endereço abaixo.
- Contato: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
(apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.

calher

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 06/19/2015

Will I be able to use this forum thru my email without littering it with junk at the bottom of my message, or are you top-posting on purpose?

ADFENO
Offline
Beigetreten: 12/31/2012

You can, when *you reply* to someone, delete the citation made by *your*
email client automatically.

In my case I keep only the most recent one because it helps to keep
context. I was also not a fan of bottom/top posting once, but was
convinced to do so in order to preserve context and try to cooperate
with people who either can't thread the messages (or which the threading
was lost for some reason) or in cases which the webmail or the email
clients are so dumb that they can't provide easy way to thread the
messages. Notice that I used "dumb" to refer to *software* not the
users.

2017-11-23T10:58:45+0100 name at domain wrote:
> Will I be able to use this forum without littering it with junk at the
> bottom of my message, or are you top-posting on purpose?
>

david

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Offline
Beigetreten: 08/02/2008

Hi!

I'm afraid you've misinterpreted a technical feature as some kind of foul play.

Trisquel's user forums and mailing lists are synchronized so you can participate on them both through the website and through you preferred e-mail client. J.B. Nicholson-Owens is not using any admin privileges, just probably quoting some lines through the "reply" function of an e-mail client.

Any mailing list works through e-mail addresses, and any mailing list user can see the e-mail addresses of other subscribers. This is not that obvious when signing up to a forum and hence not ideal here (this topic has been brought up before and we intend to improve on it in the future), but it's actually warned at the "create new account" form under the e-mail field. The line you show at the screencap is related to the private contact form and has nothing to do with this situation.

I hope this clarifies your doubts.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Greetings David,

You can see I am an old-timey user here, like 4 years 44 weeks. There was nothing about duplicating forum posts with an email list and publishing personal info at large. If this was the case, there would not be the stipulation:

"Personal contact form
Allow other users to contact you by e-mail via your personal contact form. Note that while your e-mail address is not made public to other members of the community, privileged users such as site administrators are able to contact you even if you choose not to enable this feature."

So if I am wrong here, you can see how a statement like that can mislead me and others.

david

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Offline
Beigetreten: 08/02/2008

Hello again.

As I tried to explain to you, the note about the personal contact form is not related to this issue, it only refers to whether somebody can privately write to you through your user page (with an additional "contact" tab appearing to the right) or not.

No admin is using this contact form to write to you or to expose your e-mail address. The trisquel-users forums have always been synchronized to the mailing lists and this topic has been addressed several times through the years, like in 2012 (when we edited the e-mail field description to reflect this) and several times later, like you can see at this long-standing issue ( https://trisquel.info/en/issues/2003 ).

I agree though that the help text describing the behaviour of the private contact form can be misleading so I will be editing it to reflect this issue the same as the one where you provide your e-mail address to create the account.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

David,

If this be the case, then our friend Quantum made a valid point, the right to delete a Trisquel account if need be.

We, the user, should have that right and ability and sign on again when we get a better idea of how exactly this site works. Please grant the right of account deletion.

Thank you.

david

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Offline
Beigetreten: 08/02/2008

Every user has of course the right to delete his or her account. The reason for the site to not provide a button for doing that directly is that we like to try to offer help to anybody that wants to quit the site for some specific problem but specially to ask them for permission to keep their contributions to the forum, optionally attaching those to an anonymous account.

With the current set-up, if you could delete your user account wholly on your own all the forum threads that you started would disappear, so lots of helpful replies and conversations would be lost and that's usually not the intention of the user leaving the site. So if someone wants to delete an account, we ask about what to do with those contributions and comply with the desire of the user.

So no, this isn't the Hotel California of the Internet, you can leave anytime you want but we'd rather have you or at least your memories around to make the community stronger :)

ADFENO
Offline
Beigetreten: 12/31/2012

As a plus: If you make use of the mailing lists instead of the forums,
you can choose to stop receiving emails (although your subscription will
remain).

I don't know if this is the same case for the
"forums-linked-to-mailing-lists" situation, but in *normal* mailing
lists: You can unsubscribe/"delete account" and the threads and comments
already created won't be affected.

Mailing lists don't suffer from the current issues of the
rating system issue.

Finally, using mailing lists has the benefit of allowing you choose any
reader you like (email client), with the workflow you like, with scoring
in the way you like (to automatically set some threads or messages as
important or to set them as spam/junk, although I haven't used any
scoring yet).

And also see, since I'm using the mailing list, citing a message
normally attempts to get the friendly name of that person first,
otherwise most email clients use the email address instead. In the case
of the forums, they don't set the friendly name in "Friendly Name
<name at domainer>", so, since "Friendly Name" is missing, the
clients decide to refer to email address. One way around this would be
to take the forum display name and use it as friendly one, but I don't
know if this is possible in forums software (generally speaking, not
limited to this one).

This however, doesn't stop specific customizable email clients to use
the email address for references directly. For example, I know that
Emacs Gnus has this option (you can explicitly tell it to "always cite
the email address when inserting parts of the original message", or
something like that).

Once again, notice that I'm citing david's message and that I'm using an
email client:

2017-11-22T12:12:32+0100 name at domain wrote:
> Every user has of course the right to delete his or her account. The
> reason for the site to not provide a button for doing that directly is
> that we like to try to offer help to anybody that wants to quit the
> site for some specific problem but specially to ask them for
> permission to keep their contributions to the forum, optionally
> attaching those to an anonymous account.
>
> With the current set-up, if you could delete your user account wholly
> on your own all the forum threads that you started would disappear, so
> lots of helpful replies and conversations would be lost and that's
> usually not the intention of the user leaving the site. So if someone
> wants to delete an account, we ask about what to do with those
> contributions and comply with the desire of the user.
>
> So no, this isn't the Hotel California of the Internet, you can leave
> anytime you want but we'd rather have you or at least your memories
> around to make the community stronger :)

--
- https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, veja formas de se comunicar
instantaneamente comigo no endereço abaixo.
- Contato: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
(apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.

calher

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 06/19/2015

I want to use my email client to use this forum, but I'm afraid I won't see edits that people make to their messages.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 07/24/2010

You won't, indeed.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Users (or at least this user) joined the Trisquel site with certain assumptions that when we join something like an on-line forum, that this forum would act similar to other forums. You got your user handle and you got your comments. So far so good. Nowhere does it say here, when you sign up with the forum, "Oh yeah, when you post here, we will not only re-post your comments in another area, like an e-mail list, but your email address as well, so all know your contact info. Part of the sensitivity of posting email addresses is vulnerability to stuff like SPAM, or individuals who act in bad faith (for example) if there is an escalation or conflict. Just posting a user name contains the situation. While I think community and sharing and retaining knowledge is good, when the tools or people who manage this do so poorly, we must opt for the greater importance, namely the users' rights. There are two contentions here, 1) publishing personal info 2) reposting without letting the user know this will be so.

calher

I am a member!

Offline
Beigetreten: 06/19/2015

Not publishing an email address is a poor security measure and approaches terrorism. http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

What a coherent, logical, well-thought out argument that makes complete sense. The source cited is coherent and authorative and should be used as a measure of all things.

ADFENO
Offline
Beigetreten: 12/31/2012

I might not be the best person to speak in regards to writing detailed
text in English, but I have a suggestion:

#+begin_example
This contact form will serve as a secondary way to reach you through
your email address and for people using only the forums to post or read
messages. People who use the mailing lists linked to each forum/subforum
will *still see your email address* and (with the limitations of the
current forum system) might cite the address *explicitly* in their
replies.
#+end_example

When the forum display name is correctly set up to show as a friendly
name, you can change it to:

#+begin_example
This contact form will serve as a secondary way to reach you through
your email address and for people using only the forums to post or read
messages. People who use the mailing lists linked to each forum/subforum
will still *see your email address* and might cite the address
*explicitly* in their messages depending on how their email client is
configured to reply and if you have a friendly/display name set for your
forum account.
#+end_example

2017-11-22T11:21:21+0100 name at domain wrote:
> Hello again.
>
> As I tried to explain to you, the note about the personal contact form
> is not related to this issue, it only refers to whether somebody can
> privately write to you through your user page (with an additional
> "contact" tab appearing to the right) or not.
>
> No admin is using this contact form to write to you or to expose your
> e-mail address. The trisquel-users forums have always been
> synchronized to the mailing lists and this topic has been addressed
> several times through the years, like in 2012 (when we edited the
> e-mail field description to reflect this) and several times later,
> like you can see at this long-standing issue (
> https://trisquel.info/en/issues/2003 ).
>
> I agree though that the help text describing the behaviour of the
> private contact form can be misleading so I will be editing it to
> reflect this issue the same as the one where you provide your e-mail
> address to create the account.
>

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Offline
Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

meh

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

@SuperTramp83 OK, so instead of your handle "SuperTramp83", kindly use your email address as a handle instead. You see where I am going with this?

Trisquel is one of the better examples of Libre software out there. It is one of the easiest to install and works more than other GNU/Linux distributions, including the propretary varieties at times. This is no small feat. Those who share FSF's concerns about a world where corporations dominate our on-line life and those who care are working to provide a viable alternative. If I sign on to a corporate forum, they have some measure for user privacy. They also get hacked, sure, but the due dilligence is there. So the Trisquel site can do a little better to preserve user privacy and let her decide when to reveal any additional information about herself, if ever. In some places in the world, being a free software advocate is enough to get you earmarked and surveiled by governments. So that reason alone should make privacy of personal data important.

The other part is clear disclosure of what the site will do with your posts and data. I was not made aware that my posts here would be reposted elsewhere. A big corporation would be in hot water over that. Even if they obscured it in a EULA, this would still be an issue. Had I known, I may want to use a different email address or opt not to post at all out of SPAM concerns.

As for deleting an account, most companies/corporations offer this feature. I believe Trisqul/Libre community can one up the corporations and find some middle ground where user data is preserved, the user always knows what is going on and in case a deletion occurs, the important knowledge is still there.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Heather.

I. Khider
Offline
Beigetreten: 01/19/2013

Ageism is such lovely behaviour. Thank you for your inclusivity.