Librem 15: A Free/Libre and Open Source Laptop That Respects Your Essential Freedoms

82 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

I watched the video the other day. He has a good sales pitch, but its nothing more. He's implying 250 laptops will essentially be enough to force Intel to release the code. This is non-sense. If they do it won't be the result of force or pressure. $250,000 is nothing in the scheme of it. Even if he was ordering 20,000 laptops (millions of dollars) it would make no difference to Intel.

If your going to put pressure on Intel financially you need significant numbers. Google *might* have those numbers with the chromebooks which have sold millions. However that is no guarantee. NVIDIA refused to release code after flying 20 or so developers to China over a project which involved millions of units- yet that project ended up going with another graphics chipset because NVIDIA didn't want to release the code.

People underestimate the value some companies put on keeping this code proprietary. If its going to result in the competition gaining knowledge of something it's a no-go area. Intel releases code because they've got nothing to lose in the graphics arena. Atheros does the same when they have nothing to lose and people demand it. However neither would do it if they thought they had something to gain from keeping it proprietary. Notice NVIDIA and ATI (the companies releasing higher end graphics chipsets) have something they feel that releasing would make them more vulnerable (easing the ability of Intel and/or others to compete).

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

If you want to listen in they're talking about it in the video @ 37:05.

davidnotcoulthard (nicht überprüft)
davidnotcoulthard

Is it going to be business class, with matte screen (in which case High price isn't really a deal breaker - I've got several old, broken ones at home I got for free and can understand if they cost thousands of dollars when they were new)?

SuperTramp83

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Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

>Hoover they wouldn't do it if they thought they had >something to gain from keeping it proprietary.

sad but true. money seems to be the only universal value today for a lot of people, and it is actually going worse day to day - soon it will be the only value for ALL the people. biatches have sold out long time ago and they are actually happy with that. and they sleep well at night. better then me or you..

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

on librem15's website is says
- hardware components, like the HD or SSD, that are flashable, and therefore upgradeable, but that currently run firmware

are all hdds like that? You cannot get a hdd, that is open source or free software?

I can read that part of the bios and initialization software is open source. Why do they release parts of the software?
What can happen to intel if they release all software? Can other manufacturers use it to built mainboards? Intel wants to sell hardware, then why don't they release all software?
It is not to keep gnulinux out, because it can be installed if in combination with non open source software?
And if it is a matter of making obstacles for gnulinux, then because microsoft and apple has the mass to achieve that?

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

I believe all hard disk drives contain non-free firmware. I think there is a project working on free'ing a series of SSD drive firmware. I haven't looked into it personally, but I know we've talked about it internally (@ ThinkPenguin) before. If anybody has more info on it I'd love to hear about it. Particularly if they have flashed a drive and how well it works. What are the drawbacks? Is the data at risk? Does the drive's performance degrade? Is it reversible? If so how? How long does it take to degrade? Does the performance still out-do a traditional disk?

This project may have code out, but it may not be something that can be realistically free'd/used in a real-world or production scenario. My gut would tell me replacing this firmware is extremely risky business.

Intel like every other company isn't going to reveal the sources unless it is perceived that there is nothing to be lost- and there may be something to be gained. That's why the release the code for graphics, but don't reveal the specs for the BIOS. They're not vulnerable to competitors being the bottom tier in graphics already and they're at a greater advantage releasing the code because doing so will enable game developers to better optimize games for its chipsets. On the other hand Intel perceives that supporting the coreboot project will mean jeopardizing contracts or similar- or jeopardize the features they're selling in relation to digital restrictions. If the DRM doesn't work the secret sauce is revealed then they can't sell that to the entertainment industry- which then won't release films- which may only be released and supported on Intel-based systems. If they keep it they'll have an advantage “watch 4k movies only on Intel” (but that isn't possible if the entertainment industry won't release 4k without the DRM).

veleiro
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Beigetreten: 11/24/2014

The only way to win is to not play the consumer game. Stop buying new hardware from Intel, NVIDIA, AMD, and similar companies. Instead, buy preowned hardware that works well with free software, or new hardware that is made for free software. There's plenty of discarded good machines (years and years of it) from consumers that always go for the newest devices. That way, it's not directly supporting their decisions to limit freedom. It doesn't stop the source of the problem (consumers) but it doesn't assist the problem either. Eventually they'll learn! (or maybe not, but one can try to influence)

tldr dont buy the Librem laptop because it supports companies that actively limit free software

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

It's more complicated than that though. If you purchase a refurbished machine you will likely actually be contributing to the increase in value and benefit of the original purchaser and also directly increasing the profits of some of these awful companies through means of licensing. I'll give you an example. Legitimate companies who refurbish hardware are purchasing refurbishment licenses from Microsoft which apparently applies to all machines which originally came with Microsoft Windows. Essentially any laptop you might buy that had Microsoft Windows on it will directly benefit Microsoft a 2nd time around. Next: Short of replacing the BIOS you'll likely be forced to replace broken pieces with identical parts that are only available from the original manufacturer due to things like digital restrictions. After-warranty sales of parts are a huge business and digital restrictions only forces the profits from any such sales back to the original manufacturer.

There is simply no good solution. Particularly not without a coordinated and well-marketed push to do something about it.

I certainly am not advocating we do nothing- but I don't think we should act as if there is some sort of real or magical solution either.

Certainly you can make the argument that you can get parts and build it yourself and avoid some of these issues. Ultimately though there is no realistic solution that can impact change in a meaningful way. The average user is not going to be able to do this. There are not enough people even willing to purchase a system per-assembled as such.

I think the best we can do is work toward something larger that is not directly reliant on free software advocate's purchases to impact change. That is to say free software advocates are better suited to seed efforts to free hardware that can be targeted at everybody. Indirectly everybody wins. We all get free software friendly hardware- or more of it- (or even just maintain the status quo-which is better than going backwards).

marioxcc
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Beigetreten: 08/13/2014

What about buying the parts and assembling a computer when we need one? I have done that several times. That way we can keep as many as our freedoms/rights as computer users as possible next to not using any computer at all.

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

It's better than nothing- but regardless there is no perfect answer as individuals we can't do much of anything. Certainly not more than when resources are pooled together. It can also be difficult and impossible for many to go it alone.

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

-

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

I am a layperson about computers. I found out about the fsf approach to computers. And that there is a gluglug.

I know that there must be reasons that there are no acceptable free hardware notebooks. I would want to write open source hardware. To me it is good enough if it can be verified that the hardware cannot spy on me. That is why I have tried to get informed what are the obstacles.
Based on my readings I got the perception, that reverse engineering is the main obstacles. It is to difficult. After reading this post, it seems it can be done? It is rather a matter of getting it paid, which requires enough buyers of the hardware.

Chris, I too believe that for average buyers free hardware is not a sales argument. And only a joint effort can provide free hardware. I disagree on your conclusion.
I am willing to pay more for approximately the same performance, if it is free hardware. Bunny succeeded in crowdfunding a board that is expensive for its performance. And it isn't even free hardware? On this forum in another post I suggested, that a crowdfunding of a x86 free hardware notebook mainboard should be endorsed by fsf. A comment brushed me of. I still believe, that enough potential buyers for a free hardware mainboard are present. What if in a combined crowdfunding campaign fsf, eff, applebaum, debian, ubuntu, libreoffice, vlc, gimp, audacity, maybe even mozilla would endorse and promote the mainboard? I would say, that hundred thousand or millions would get to know about the mainboard and there would be enough buyers among them to get the mainboard produced.

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

I'm not sure your understanding what I'm saying.

The companies designing x86 hardware are uncooperative and as such it is highly unlikely we will be successful in producing a modern free software friendly laptop. It'll be too difficult to overcome the issues these companies have created even with the backing of the community. They have repeatedly responded in ways that indicate they will not cooperate and even larger entities with the resources to potentially persuade them have failed to do so.

Non-x86 hardware has its own challenges, but there are already reverse engineered graphics chipsets that can potentially be utilized in a free software friendly design. The mali400 for instance might be an option alongside an Allwinner CPU. How realistic this is I'm still not sure. It may not be adequately powerful enough to pull off a laptop. However CPUs have gotten more powerful and it might just work.

I think with a campaign the later non-x86 design is likely a better avenue. It would potentially offer a number of benefits such as a significantly cheaper system that more users could get behind. If the laptop is priced high it will not be able to attract enough attention to pull off the work that needs to be done. If a cheaper less powerful laptop proved to be a success then a more elaborate project might be worth attempting. However right now I think there have been a number of efforts to tackle a higher end free software friendly laptop and all have failed. The larger community has shown it doesn't care and as such any laptop needs to offer something different. One thing that tends to be very attractive to such endeavors is a low price point. Combine the two and there will be a higher chance of success to pull this off.

Do you want to sell a million laptops and make $10 profit off each- or only 250 laptops and make $200 profit off each? In the first instance you'll make $10 million in profit. In the later instance you'll not even make enough to continue your operation ($50,000). You might feel like $50,000 is a lot of money, but it's a pittance once you factor in the cost of manufacturing, employee costs, warehousing costs, taxes, etc.

There is a reason the Raspberry Pi was successful. It had little to do with freedom and a lot to do with the price point. Add in sufficient marketing and it was a winner from a numbers game. You need to do that, but with a freedom respecting laptop.

SuperTramp83

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Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

veleiro - the sad reality is that the vast majority of people doesn't give a f..k about freedom and privacy (those two words for me signify one same thing and are inseparable).
I mean look at how the world (didn't) changed after Edward Snowden - it's been a year and a half now and if you ask the average Joe what does he think about Snowden and how much does he value his liberty you'll be amazed at the answer you'll get - trust me.
Those who care about digital freedom are even less.
I respect your opinion but it is pure utopia and it is never gonna happen..

Sasaki
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Beigetreten: 08/11/2014

I agree with everything you said except your last sentence. I think you pointed the most important thing in this debate without wondering how to change it. I mean communication, information, education.

Of course snowden's revelation didn't reach everyone equally because of their different level of knowledge about computers. It's been a year and a half and a lot of people are still ignorant about digital freedom, but some like me came to the free softawre world directly because of that.
It's right saying nothing is really gonna change during the 5 years to come for example. But if every free software user now tells everyone he can how to protect their freedom, if schools organize events about it and use free software, if people create their own medias and talk about it, if they also think about adapting their computer use on their real needing. A lot of things can change within 10 or 20 years.

I think communication and education, wich means having a real social life, is the key to a lot of things in our modern world.

SuperTramp83

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Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

sasaki - do you really think that to those 1.2 billion facebook users a concept like privacy (real life or digital) really means something?
I agree with you brother - the key is in information and education. But I don't see great opportunities even there - I live in Italy and in my region almost everybody doesn't even know what free software means, even in my university there is only windows. I had an exam in informatics (though I don't study informatics..) and in the material gnu/linux was hardly ever mentioned. Schools are teaching you how to use windblowz, microshit office, google mail and google search engine!!
I tell all my friends not to use proprietary code- almost none of them listens. I mean - they listen but they keep using windblowz or at the best ubuntu or mint with a shitload of proprietary nasties (skype for example)..
100% free OSes have to become so simple to use that even an idiot (informatically speaking) can use them and have all and I mean ALL the apps they got used on windblowz without having to learn or sacrifice anything! That is just not gonna happen..

Sasaki
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Beigetreten: 08/11/2014

> sasaki - do you really think that to those 1.2 billion facebook users a concept like privacy (real life or
> digital) really means something?

I don't. A little amount of them is aware of the shit it is but keep using it.

Schools are teaching us how to use microsoft and google software because of business or because the teachers are not good computer users. Our generation has grown with computers and it is us who have to teach the largest amount of people how to use it properly. It is very important because the generation to come is growing under facebook, windows and google influence.

It is quite the same about my friends and I agree it is a GIANT problem. Nevertheless is think that it is a matter of imitation : the more people use skype, the more their friends use skype. It is the way the big industries do their job : hypnotizing people with ads and letting fashion finish the work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6lHm-stXdM
If we talk about it together (hundreds of people talking about it for a year or two and mixing their ideas), couldn't we find some solution and do it (doing it is very important two...). I mean this is just the way the big industries planned to control almost everything, and are trying to do it now. Something humans do, humans can undo.
By the more, a lot of apps, or most of them can be easily replaced by free ones. The biggest matter is hardware, isn't it ?

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

We need to tackle these issues from a different perspective. We need to focus on starting companies that respect users freedom.

For example we need a replacement for online news. I don't want to have to search YouTube in the hopes of finding a video clip contained in an article that I can actually play- or have to fiddle with configuration settings to make the site think I'm on some proprietary platform that simply is making them think I lack Adobe Flash and as such is now pushing HTML5 video instead. Though a plug-in might be the best realistic option right now.

We have a solution for hardware- lets not focus on stuff we already have a solution for. Unless it is something *different*- like 3d printers (actually don't do that, we got that solved, lolbotz), servers, etc.

We need a company focused on servers and similar that respect users freedom and privacy.

We need a company that focuses on hosting and services that respects users freedoms and privacy.

Some of these things we can potentially offload to a small device. Others we need a company to focus on that is dedicated to that area. We need a company that fixes the entertainment issue. Some of these things are bigger than any of us individually can work on. I don't expect anybody to solve the entertainment issue- except maybe through indirect means that really irritate the entertainment industry. I won't touch that one as it comes with a high risk factor and given my location and current success is ill-advisable.

Sasaki
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Beigetreten: 08/11/2014

Maybe, starting companies and education are both things to be done.

Here, in france, we have french data network who gives access to internet in a way that respects freedom and privacy. The branch in my city also offers hosting services on virtual and physical machines. Maybe are you talking about that kind of initiative ?

Can you precise what you call the entertainment issue ?

Chris

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Beigetreten: 04/23/2011

I'm not really that familiar with whats happening in France. Essentially people who care need to build new businesses to compete with those who discard our freedoms, privacy, and rights in the name of profits. We shouldn't try and fight with each other trying to do the same things. There are lots of problems to solve. It makes no sense. Unfortunately that is exactly what is going on and its disgusting.

The entertainment industry issue is a huge issue. The industry for the most part is forcing digital restrictions onto providers of entertainment. Whether or not one wants to push digital restrictions (and certainly most do anyway) or not you as a business won't have a choice. If you do not cooperate you will not be able to stream the content of any major copyright holder.

In the past one could purchase content and rent that content without the need for permission. However in the digital age this is no longer the case. In theory you might be able to work around the way the legislation is written by setting up servers with DVDs in them and renting the DVD + DVD drive + compression technology component + internet pipe and then enable to user to stream that content to themselves legally and make money off of renting all these things plus the hardware to do it. However the supreme court has set a horrible precedent with Aereo's over-the-air service. They essentially did this, but because they apparently had one antenna instead of multiple antennas the business collapsed. This is utterly ridicules. They also essentially said if it quacks like a duck then it is a duck. So basically despite that Aereo was in compliance with the law as it was written they said essentially "we don't care- because it looks to us like it violates the law it's not allowed".

Services like that of Aereo though are potentially the way forward if we are to try and preserve our rights. Unfortunately these efforts have thus far been blocked and will likely be extremely difficult to make work because of the laws and entertainment industry's position. Not to mention that it is in those streaming services interest to make implementing competing services difficult. By doing that they make entry for newcomers more difficult.

SuperTramp83

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Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

For the last year or so I've been radical in the way i use my computer. I use no google search, no flash, no gmail or any other big mail provider, I configured my icecat and abrowser (and before that firefox on xubuntu) very strictly in order to leave as less traces as possible. I never had a faceshit account nor twitt err or anything like that. no ads no javascript no cookies at all never (except on a few websites - session cookies). If I have to communicate with someone I use mail and don't send mail if it is google mail or similar- i call them and clearly tell them "I will not send you mail on that address..!". no youtube except minitube rarely. no voip except encrypted one with a friend of mine who has some basic knowledge needed to set one. instant messaging with pidgeon xmpp and if possible with otr. My ip changes several times each day and if I feel like it is good to change it I change it whenever I want. If I need to do anything important I boot tails.

The whole point of this boring monologue :) being:
- if the majority of people used their pcs like i use it those ad-shitheads like google would go bankrupt in a year!
Lets not forget google makes like 95% of its revenue out of targeted advertizing!

I don't want anybody to collect and store info about me. I hate the idea of being tracked (in real life and on the net) - not that i have anything to hide or do anything illegal. It's a principle by which I want to live. I am fairly convinced that there can be no freedom without privacy and will never repeat it enough!!

p.s - look at this monkey and listen what is he mumbling jeeez!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6e7wfDHzew

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place" !!!

really? really? I say he is a fucking idiot! Excuse my language but i really wouldn't know how to express it better..

Garsmith
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Beigetreten: 07/27/2013

The laptop now upgraded to support 32GB of ram but still the "upgraded" CPU that cant be upgraded. And still numpad and still 16x9 screen.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop/updates

Legimet
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Beigetreten: 12/10/2013

They're making progress, and they figured out how to get rid of the signature checking for the BIOS: http://puri.sm/posts/pioneering-cpu-efforts-to-liberate-laptop-hardware/

Michał Masłowski

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Beigetreten: 05/15/2010

They write about "run[ning] unsigned BIOS code". Chromebook and
Thinkpad users can easily do this by flashing a build of upstream
coreboot.

veleiro
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Beigetreten: 11/24/2014

I wouldnt say that updating that they figured out something is actually figuring out something.

SuperTramp83

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Beigetreten: 10/31/2014

:)

Garsmith
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Beigetreten: 07/27/2013

Librem 15 laptop is now crowd funded over 100%. It will become a reality.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop

They have had some updates of the hardware. Now 15 different keyboards. Asking about kill switches for camera, wifi, mic, usb, bluetooth.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop/updates

I have nagged a bit on this laptop, see other posts here, but this is a good step. It seems to be a high quality laptop. Hope future revision will fix the design errors.

Ishamael
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Beigetreten: 08/29/2014

What about bios writes? That's a major security problem.

Triqel
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Beigetreten: 12/06/2014

Maybe Dell could be one alternative with its a new laptop model:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/dell-offers-new-ubuntu-linux-workstation-laptop/

lembas
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Beigetreten: 05/13/2010

Ubuntu is full of binary blobs so the hardware might not work with free GNU/Linux distros. Apparently Dell is among vendors who implement a wifi whitelist so if the wifi card doesn't work (a common problem) it might be nigh impossible to fix it.

__martin__
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Beigetreten: 12/25/2012

SOURCE: https://www.marc.info/?t=142240878300001&r=1&w=2
THEO DE RAADT: "total bulls*it" && "PR by RMS"
_______________________________________________________________________________

> http://phys.org/news/2015-01-high-end-upstream-linux-laptop-ship.html
>
> "the first high-end laptop in the world that ships without mystery software in the \
> kernel, operating system, or any software applications."
> Can this be? No binary blobs?

It is complete and total BS.

If you dig down deep enough into what they are doing, you will see
this is a major manufacturer sales pitch mixed with a flopped PR
campaign by RMS that is settling for accepting a failure rather than
admitting defeat.

Don't waste your money on a false ideal by someone who misunderstands
modern hardware and the market forces.

_______________________________________________________________________________

>Can this be? No binary blobs?

The "absolutely no mystery cod" is fake, the same page say:
"which includes a binary from Intel, called FSP."

The FPS is the Firmware Package Support[1]. It have "CPU, memory controller,
and Intel(R) chipset initialization functions as a binary package".

- Run proprietary microcode[2];
- Blobs on Embedded Controller[3];
- Support Intel "features" (Management Engines):
- SMM [4], It have many allegations of backdoor inside;
- SMC [5] . It's a mechanism that have total controll of your hardware;
- AMT[6] (Active Management Technology); and
- This processor have a cryptoprocessor (or accelerator, I don't know exactly)
inside [7]. This processor perform the "Intel Indentity Protection Technology"
(on Public Key Generation step) and AES acceleration (if enabled).
Intel already have accusations about backdoor on this [8].
OpenBSD don't allow this to run.

- Blobs on GPU. It run a Intel Iris Pro 5200, that is VBIOS closed;
- Blobs on USB 3.0; and
- The SSD/HDD have blobs on microcontrollers on drive board.

If you want something more "free", try out some ARM board, like SABRE lite or
something like that.

Regards,
L.

[1] https://archive.today/hWkT3
[2] https://archive.today/GKqXM
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_controller
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode#Problems
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Controller
[6] https://archive.today/YTuP8
[7] https://archive.today/89RGl
[8] https://archive.today/R8MXN

tonlee
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Beigetreten: 09/08/2014

You are off track. RMS has said no more, than enabling the computer to accept a free software bios is a step towards a free software computer.
If issues stated on http://puri.sm/posts/bios-freedom-status/ find a free software solution, will you then assess the computer being a free software computer?
If your point is, that Librem 15: A Free/Libre Software Laptop That Respects Your Essential Freedoms is a misleading headline, then I agree. One piece of non free software on the computer and it is not a free software computer.