Opinions on Libre Computer Board Systems

15 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
PublicLewdness
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Beigetreten: 03/15/2020

Does anybody have any experience with the Libre Computer Board brand of single board computers ? From what I can gather they work with Debian so they should be alright (although probably not perfect) from a free software standpoint. The company also seems to contribute code upstream and have a Github page for their source code. I don't really have much of a use for single board computers right now but I figure having an option in my stable of systems outside of X86 isn't a bad idea and this is far cheaper than a Talos II. I have heard their documentation is poor but outside of that don't see much in the way of reviews of this brand.

https://www.amazon.ca/Libre-Computer-AML-S905X-CC-Potato-64-bit/dp/B074P6BNGZ/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=libre%2Bcomputer%2Bproject&qid=1608874722&sr=8-1&th=1

https://libre.computer/products/boards/aml-s905x-cc/

https://github.com/libre-computer-project

koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

Never heard about them.

I see they are using Amlogic's S905X in the board You linked and Allwinner's SoCs in some other boards. You probably want to have a fully libre device (aka RYF-eligible). In case of ARM SBCs this means You want *at least* a blob-less U-boot port for that platform and a blob-less graphic stack (there could theoretically be other issues, but those are the most common ones).

Allwinner processors (despite company's ugly behaviour) have been used in fully-libre boards for some time and I could quickly find out which models run with blob-less U-boot. For Amlogic - there are little search results. You could dig into U-boot sources and see if there are any blobs being included in image for S905X... or You could email the company asking whether there are any nonfree blobs in the U-boot port they are using - that's what I would do in the first place.

As to the graphic stack, Mali-450 (also used in some Rockchip and Allwinner SoCc) has libre drivers, so it should be ok:
https://wiki.debian.org/PanfrostLima

You can also buy one of the libre boards mentioned in this thread:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/freedombox-1

PublicLewdness
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Beigetreten: 03/15/2020

"Never heard about them.

I see they are using Amlogic's S905X in the board You linked and Allwinner's SoCs in some other boards. You probably want to have a fully libre device (aka RYF-eligible). In case of ARM SBCs this means You want *at least* a blob-less U-boot port for that platform and a blob-less graphic stack (there could theoretically be other issues, but those are the most common ones).

Allwinner processors (despite company's ugly behaviour) have been used in fully-libre boards for some time and I could quickly find out which models run with blob-less U-boot. For Amlogic - there are little search results. You could dig into U-boot sources and see if there are any blobs being included in image for S905X... or You could email the company asking whether there are any nonfree blobs in the U-boot port they are using - that's what I would do in the first place.

As to the graphic stack, Mali-450 (also used in some Rockchip and Allwinner SoCc) has libre drivers, so it should be ok:
https://wiki.debian.org/PanfrostLima

You can also buy one of the libre boards mentioned in this thread:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/freedombox-1"

Thanks for the links and info. It helped a lot. I Gave me some ideas on products as well as the OSHWA database to comb through.

TheJames
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2018

I am really interested in these boards. iv noticed Uboot boards are becoming more and more common. I really want to leave having prison firmware on my device, but require more modern hardware. The boards could someday be a more upgradable DIY laptop. Plug and play displays, hard-drives more. Think-pads seem like a end of life investment at this point. I comfortable to leave x86 for freedom ware.

koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

Sorry for digging back up this already month-old thread, but...

I thought You'd be interested in the fact that SoCs commonly used in those ARM SBCs are also being used in laptops.

See this Olimex one (Allwinner CPU):
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/KITS/TERES-A64-BLACK/open-source-hardware

Or that from PINE64 (RockChip CPU):
https://pine64.com/product/14%e2%80%b3-pinebook-pro-linux-laptop-ansi-us-keyboard/?v=98b6780fefa7

Those liberatable chromebooks out there also happen to be using RockChip CPUs. All those can be booted and have graphic working without any proprietary blobs.

The sad thing is that none of those laptop vendors is fully devoted to sw freedom - and hence they all included wifi chips that require nonfree firmware. At least in case of Pinebook Pro it should be possible to populate the free PCI slot with an Atheros card... There is also little to no possibility of increasing storage in those laptops. And currently none of them can be easily purchased without nonfree js :/

So what You mentioned is almost there, but not exactly as hacker-free as we would want it to be

PublicLewdness
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Beigetreten: 03/15/2020

The Pinebook Pro is something I have been eying for a while. Could have pulled the trigger on one during the past summer but I opted for the Pinephone CE and Pinetab instead. To be honest the wifi is almost a non issue for me. I don't mind ordering a small wifi USB dongle worst case and plugging that in. It's an easier pill to swallow on a laptop than having to plug one into a phone to get FLOSS wifi support. Obviously I would rather full FLOSS support but at the end of the day no option is perfectly ideal in most cases so we have to figure out what we are most willing to sacrifice unless budget is not an obstacle.

koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

Also note that Pinebook Pro has nonfree keyboard and touchpad firmware. Teres I is better in this case, as it has these free. No idea about other laptops' input devices, though.

TheJames
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2018

Anyone check out the beagelV? Its risk-v all the components appear to use free firmware. Not exactly FSF certified yet, but might actually meet criteria. Plus, 8gb ram.

http://beagleboard.org/beaglev

PublicLewdness
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Beigetreten: 03/15/2020

I had been looing at the Beagleboard AI but this does look nicer with the 8GB of RAM. I notice it doesn't list any onboard storage so does it rely solely on SD cards for storage ?

koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

I saw some people (guys from Olimex if I recall correctly) mention that risc-V has no actual benefits over ARM. The argument in favor of that opinion is that even though some free HDL implementations of that architecture exist, all Risc-V chips currently available on the market are from Chinese companies that don't release their designs and might have put anything in the silicon. In the end - the user knows as little about inner workings of their Risc-V chip as they would with an ARM chip.

Another point is that ARM supposedly requires all companies to which it licenses its architecture to make products compatible with its specification. In case of Risc-V there aren't any requirements, so a company can legally sell a chip with arbitrary differences from architecture standard.
Not to mention they might also choose to include DRM or some equivalent of Intel ME in the future.

I must say - these arguments speak to me. However, Risc-V also makes it possible for smaller, freedom-dedicated firms to one day fabricate their CPUs.

In the end - I think we'll have to judge each processor model separately, as we used to.
What I'm afraid of is that existence of free HDL designs and patent/royalty-free ISA might (surprisingly) be smaller of the problems, with bigger one being access to a fab. Although this is also getting better, technologies currently available to mere mortals are still over a decade old. See:
http://opencircuitdesign.com/qflow/index.html
https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk

EDIT: Wikipedia doesn't mention SiFive (company behind BeagleV) being Chinese business - rather a USA one. Idk what particular manufacturers those Olimex guys meant

EDIT2: Btw, there were libre chip designs available before. OpenRISC and OpenSPARC. For some reason (perheps their GPL license causing practical problems?) these did not become common and there was no such hype for them as there is for Risc-V :/

EDIT3: Toolchain for SiFive products like BeagleV seems to be here:
https://github.com/sifive/freedom-u-sdk
We're to see if there are going to be any blobs. I hope not :)

lutes
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Beigetreten: 09/04/2020

> Chinese companies that don't release their designs and might have put anything in the silicon.
> Wikipedia doesn't mention SiFive (company behind BeagleV) being Chinese business - rather a USA one.
> Idk what particular manufacturers those Olimex guys meant

Notice how one could rewrite the first sentence without "Chinese" in it and come to the same conclusion about the chips. Smearing anything Chinese seems to have become standard practice for some people, at the expense of facts, analysis, finesse and common sense.

There is in fact a relationship between BeagleV and a Chinese company: StarFive [1]. More info here [2].

[1] https://beagleboard.org/beaglev
[2] https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20210205PD217.html

StarFive.png
koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

> Smearing anything Chinese seems to have become standard practice for some people, at the expense of facts, analysis, finesse and common sense.

Anyways, I was just passing forward what I read some half a year ago there:
https://www.olimex.com/forum/index.php?topic=7153.msg27256#msg27256

However, the fact something is being produces in China is by no means irrelevant. China's political and economical situation used to allow companies there to bend all sorts of laws. Thinking about counterfeit products, fake CE marks, Allwinner's GPL violations, HDMI splitters capable of bypassing HDCP, etc. A subset of these is relevant to us as a freesw community.
Plus even though we are used to connect spyware to the US, China - being a huge state with aspirations under communist dictatorship - is also quite likely to put some in devices.
I consider being skeptical about Chinese products a reasonable thing.
I am willing to admit 1 thing, though. That there have been freesw-enabled chips from China in the past and so more might come in the future.

> There is in fact a relationship between BeagleV and a Chinese company: StarFive [1].

Goot to know, thanks!

lutes
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Beigetreten: 09/04/2020

> I consider being skeptical about Chinese products a reasonable thing.

I consider being skeptical about any product a reasonable thing.

> A subset of these is relevant to us as a freesw community.

From which we can only conclude that the rest is irrelevant.

TheJames
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Beigetreten: 03/04/2018

I think the real question is there are few fsf certified distros that run arm64 well, nevermind risv-V. I'd need to use a the regular debian without non-free and install from apps from freedomware sources.

Edit: just discovered 64bit support for arm on Parabola website. You need to install 32bit os and upgrade your kernel.
https://wiki.parabola.nu/ARM_Installation_Guide

PublicLewdness
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Beigetreten: 03/15/2020

I'd take Debian over Parabola myself. Every time I try to install Parabola or Hyperbola ends in failure on my part. Debian may not be perfect but it is dirt easy to install like Trisquel.

koszkonutek
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Beigetreten: 03/19/2020

I understand you. For some time I hoped gNewSens[1] would kick in and solve the problem, but it doesn't seem to be advancing very quickly.

There's also Guix[2] and while I think it's a good distro, I also consider it too unconventional for myself to use comfortably.

[1] http://www.gnewsense.org/
[2] https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2019/guix-on-an-arm-board/