PinePhone is real and shipping soon
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https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/september-update-the-pinephone-is-real-shipping-soon/
I read the entire article and the replies to questions below.
I'm using a jailbroken iPhone and desperately want a freedom respecting phone, something that won't snoop on me and can make calls/texts/light browsing/2FA nothing more is needed for me really.
What are the thoughts of everyone here on the PinePhone? Will it be a flop like the Librem 5? I very much hope not...
> How do I remove double post..?
I do not think you can. Maybe
you can write administrator.
> be a flop like the Librem 5?
Will you elaborate?
> thoughts
About phones and free software I consider replicant to be the
most trustworthy actor. Based on what we know about the
specifications of the pinephone
https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Pinephone
replicant says, the pinephone is likely the best suited
phone to get a replicant version they know about.
When replicant has completed replicant 9 for the current
compatible replicant phones, replicant will turn to
the pinephone and decide if a replicant 9 port will
be made.
Several other software systems are working on
porting their respective system to the
pinephone. If they are non free software, maybe
one or more of them can get modified or configured such
they become free software systems. Some devices on the phone,
wifi and gps and maybe more, will
likely require non free software in order to
run. The modem complies to replicant's
requirement on modem isolation because it is
an usb modem. The modem requires non free software to
work. My understanding is the pinephone can start
and run on free software. But if you want the
modem to run, you have to install non free modem
software. The pinephone has mechanical
switches for wifi, modem and maybe more. A
screwdriver can take the phone apart.
>Will you elaborate?
I was refering to the misleading things posted on the Librem 5 website, where they stated they had fully freed hardware. It's not 100% freed and ultimately 700$ for something less free than my 400$ laptop seems like a very steep price to pay. Whereas 150$ for another phone, which still wouldn't be 100% freed, on the other hand seems easier to swallow.
>About phones and free software I consider replicant to be the most trustworthy actor.
I would agree with you, I don't very much see the advantages of porting a fully functional gnu/linux distro to mobile, freed android seems like a much better option. Before news of the PinePhone and Librem 5 I thought about buying the GTA04, Galaxy S2 or Galaxy S3. However the Replicant versions of these phones are very outdated, they have unpatched vulnerabilities iirc.
>Some devices on the phone, wifi and gps and maybe more, will likely require non free software in order to run.
I personally am not concerned about GPS, would be nice to have it freed but not necessary for me, I just won't use it. Wifi is very disappointing, could they not have used a wifi card with existing free drivers?
>The modem requires non free software to work.
Understandable. I never expected a fully freed modem in the first place, due to all the proprietary nonsense surrounding 3G/4G.
Thanks for your comments! If the Librem 5 had fully freed hardware I wouldn't even mind paying 1000$, so I'm definitely not anti-purism, alas it's impossible...
> misleading things
Maybe replicant will have a look on librem 5. If replicant
concludes the phone adhere to their requirements,
then the phone will be an improvement
regarding free software. I resent purism
because they have mislead people.
> fully functional gnu/linux distro to mobile
I would want one if I was assured that the gnulinux
system would match replicant on privacy and
security. The pinephone has the same cpu as a
pinebook. I assume it is fast enough to run
common gnulinux software. The pinephone will
have an i2c interface. Which makes it possible to build
an attachable keyboard. A small notebook.
> very outdated
As I mentioned. Replicant is working on replicant 9 version. I think
it is for the samsung i9300. My understanding is replicant
will porte replicant 9 to other replicant samsung
phones.
> Wifi is very disappointing
pine64 does not have a proclaimed free software policy. The
following are speculations. I think they look at
what hardware is for sale. Price has high priority. And
among the lowest priced options pin464 selects the
hardware which is best regarding free software. Maybe the pinephone's wifi card
is part of the cpu? I do
not know if there are wifi pci cards which could become
an option. Or if the pinephone accepts wifi pci
cards.
https://im01.itaiwantrade.com/f367ea9c-58be-4e45-a1d2-732e219cb83e/DNUA-93F-100x100.png
These ar9271 usb wifi cards are small. Even smaller if you disassemble
them. Maybe a solution could be found.
According to the replicant page that you linked, the wifi+bt combo is present, the cpu seems to be independent from the wifi. If a user can replace the wifi card with the ar9271, could you ultimately not use the non-free components? I believe with the pinephone the freedom issues arise from the bt wifi and modem. A no bt, freed wifi, and killswitch enabled modem would make for a fully freed device. You could then perhaps even make calls/text over internet with public wifi over vpn and use the modem only when absolutely necessary.
> If a user can replace the wifi card with the ar9271, could you ultimately not use the non-free components? I believe with the pinephone the freedom issues arise from the bt wifi and modem. A no bt, freed wifi, and killswitch enabled modem would make for a fully freed device.
We've talked about this before on the forum, when the PinePhone was first announced, and I believe it's true. Some of it will depend on the graphics - the free Lima driver is going to have to give you your graphics, and we won't know what kind of shape Lima is in until someone gets their hands on a PinePhone. Lima is still in active development, and even a few months ago was unable to run a display well at all. If you can't get the graphics from Lima, you'll have to use the proprietary Mali graphics driver.
At the same time, if you are doing wifi calls using an ar9271 dongle, why not just do it with a laptop? At that point, you could use the Pinebook or Pinebook Pro and get a lot more out of your system. I mean, it seems like the value in a cell phone is using the cell modem and the cellular data. If you aren't going to use that, why have a cell phone at all? Other than the form factor. I guess you just mean that it would be nice to be able to throw a libre wifi device in your pocket, and I could see that.
I very much like the concept of an iPod touch that you use as a phone on wifi, I would be willing to do this if everything could be made libre. That way you actually have a device in your pocket for playing music/videos/light games, can use for 2FA, can call/text over wifi (lots of people do this right now with facetime/skype imessage/whatsapp/bbm/insert texting app here), if need-be have a prepaid sim inside on the modem where you can kill it when not in use and activate if no public wifi available or you need to make a real call in an emergency. You can still use voip for most every call. Ultimately the cell modem is a must have in a phone and I would probably use the modem even though it's not free, but sparingly and only when necessary.
Also wanted to add but forgot, perhaps if the wifi-dongle could be stripped down to a smaller size it could fit in the phone directly connected to the motherboard? If you remove the existing bt/wifi apparatus in the phone it should free up some space. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part right now, it may have more substance once the phone actually comes out...
The PinePhone is being built in such a way that you will be able to 3D print a back cover to your liking. Pine64 is even making the schematics available to help people out in this regard. So, making a back cover with space for a USB dongle should be simple. However, how the dongle would connect to the motherboard I am not sure. But if you could solve that problem, you could definitely make it fit. It's a very good idea, and I like your idea of a phone where the cell modem is only on in case of emergency.
> I guess you just mean that it would be nice to be able to throw a libre wifi device in your pocket, and I could see that.
We've discussed this in previous threads. There are a huge number of advantages of touchscreen mobile devices over laptops/ desktops, and vice versa. It depends on your use case. Since I moved to China, I've realized how essential mobiles are for things like maps and realtime translations when you're in an unfamiliar place and you don't speak the local language. They're also brilliant for taking notes (eg shopping lists), a portable address book that can also call, text, or email people, public transport information, finding a place to eat or get a coffee, reading or listening to podcasts while waiting for the bus, the list goes on. You can boot them up in the morning and have them hibernating in your pocket or your bag all day, ready in an instant when you need to use them. Try that with a laptop ;)
> You can boot them up in the morning and have them hibernating in your
> pocket or your bag all day, ready in an instant when you need to use
> them. Try that with a laptop ;)
I have. In fact, that's exactly what I do with my laptop every day (in
my bag, not pocket). I have also given pocket-sized GNU/Linux devices a
chance, including a Replicant phone and my PocketCHIP. For me, the
conveniences of a full-sized keyboard outweigh those of a smaller
device, and nowadays I never bother with a phone and only use my
PocketCHIP for GPS navigation and listening to podcasts while driving.
Everyone's needs are different though, and I recognize that mine are
relatively simple.
> cpu seems to be independent from the wifi
Do you suggest, that technically it would be possible to
swap the build in wifi card with another one? Is
the wifi card usb or pci?
If the pinephone gets a big number seller, later
on different versions of the pinephone
can become an option. One having a free software
wifi card.
Or an attachment integrating a free software
wifi card. Maybe also a free software gps. If that
is available. To me and others a thin design is not
a priority.
> not use the non-free components?
I do not know if I am able to explain this understandably.
https://www.armbian.com/download/
A lot of these computers will start and run
on free software. But about all of them some devices
will not be supported or not be supported fullyif you do not install non free
software. Maybe its a wifi card, gpu or vpu.
If wanted to test the performance of a 10usd computer, the
orange pi one. It is fast. I did not experience major
latencies in gimp, libreoffice, etc. In the bionic system it could
play hd videos without stuttering. Likely because of non free
software. I was told if you run command
apt purge iozone3 armbian-firmware
then armbian probably turns into a free software system. When
I did that the usb wifi card stopped running. It requires non
free software. And if I remember correctly, the
hd video started stuttering.
According to postmarked os, the pinephone can start and
run on free software. And the devices which require non
free software will not work. But usb, screen
mic, camera, graphics, speakers still works. Graphics likely
not optimally. To my knowledge efforts are done
which might improve free software support about the
pinephone's graphics device.
https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/04/08/panfrost-open-source-gpu-driver-arm-mali-midgard/
>Do you suggest, that technically it would be possible to
swap the build in wifi card with another one? Is
the wifi card usb or pci?
I found the technical spec sheet for the module here -- http://files.pine64.org/doc/datasheet/pine64/RTL8723BS.pdf
but I am not an expert on these matters so I'm still trying to decipher what type of connection it is.
GSPI/SDIO seems to be the connection type? Like I said I'm not sure
>Or an attachment integrating a free software
wifi card. Maybe also a free software gps. If that
is available. To me and others a thin design is not
a priority.
I agree freedom > size, but it also should be able to comfortably fit in a pocket. I would also like the free software GPS, but I have no clue where to even begin with that..
> free software GPS
I cannot remember if I looked for a gnulinux
usb gps device or if I coincidentally read about
a gnulinux usb gps device. But I found a
low priced one and bought it, because I
wanted to test if it works on gnulinux and
if it works on free software. It does
run on free software. And the position
it displays appears correct.
The size of the device is about
2 x 2 x 3cm. I do not know if there are
free software gps devices which will fit
in a phone.
Could you please link to the libre gps? I'd like to do some reading on that department as well!
> link
I cannot remember it. The website said, this usb gps device
will run on gnulinux.
It is a g mouse.
https://www.amazon.com/Navigation-External-Receiver-Raspberry-Geekstory/dp/B078Y52FGQ
vid pid
1546 01a7
Software
https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/1-gps/
https://gpsd.gitlab.io/gpsd/index.html
From debian repository I installed
gpsd
gpsd-clients
python-gps
viking
I did not get viking to work.
Maybe there are other free software programs which will
make the g mouse run.
This command line displays the position.
cgps
I think that it's too large to run from a phone. On the specs it says that it's not compatible with android and therefore not replicant. Unfortunately a libre phone is so hard to make even with existing components because no one is making free software firmware for these phone modules...
> too large
I did not suggest the usb g mouse as a
practicable option to get gps
on a pinephone. I showed,
that there is a gps device which
will run on free software.
The wifi card on the pinephone
is 8723cs.
.
> I don't very much see the advantages of porting a fully functional gnu/linux distro to mobile, freed android seems like a much better option.
Android is just a touchscreen UI made in Java, wrapped around a modified Linux kernel, and sandwiched between a bunch of proprietary firmware and apps. I haven't had a chance to try any of the touchscreen GNU/Linux systems yet, but I really like the idea of replacing that with a touchscreen version of GNOME or KDE, or something else that is designed from the ground up to be free code that serves its user, not Goggle. I'm keen to get a PinePhone.
> I haven't had a chance to try any of the touchscreen GNU/Linux systems
> yet, but I really like the idea of replacing that with a touchscreen
> version of GNOME or KDE
I've tried Enlightenment's mobile mode on my PocketCHIP. It had some
interesting features, but was a little more complicated than what I
wanted. I ended up just adding a thick, Unity-like dock to Xfce and
using every application maximized, and that's worked well enough as a
touch-friendly mobile interface. I'd also be interested to try UBports
or a touchscreen version of GNOME or KDE.
I am very keen to get a PinePhone as well, I see in hindsight that my comment might be misinterpreted. As long as it works and is libre I am a-ok with whatever software comes on the phone, it could even be BSD! Only reason I said Android might be better is because it already has a significant libre community with Replicant ( back in 2012ish I had a Galaxy S3 and Cyanogenmod, I don't know if it is libre).
Beko:
> As long as it works and is libre I am a-ok with whatever software comes on the phone, it could even be BSD
Sure, why not? Has anyone heard of any projects porting any of the *BSD family to touchscreen?
> Only reason I said Android might be better is because it already has a significant libre community with Replicant
If I remember rightly, the Replicant team are actually involved in a way in the efforts to bring GNU/Linux to touchscreen devices. They are moving toward trying to use a Linux-libre version of the mailine Linux kernel with Replicant, instead of the modified Android version that ships with AOSP, which doesn't get support for as long as the mainline kernel. That means the work done to port Replicant to new devices can be useful in porting GNU/Linux distros to them, and vice-versa.
Here's the blog post:
https://blog.replicant.us/2019/01/replicant-will-receive-a-device-from-necuno-solutions/
The relevant bits:
"The Necuno Mobile should have a Linux kernel that is very close to upstream: this is a good opportunity for a new attempt to enable Replicant to use upstream kernels. This has many advantages. One of them is that in the long run, it should decrease the amount of work required to maintain the devices and potentially increase their lifetime.
This should also enable the Replicant project to more easily add support for other devices that can use an upstream kernel, like the GTA04, or devices like the Galaxy SIII (i9300) and the Galaxy Note 2 (n7100) that are starting to have good support in upstream Linux.
It is also very interesting in the long run as we could share some of the work with other smartphones projects like postmarketOS who are also trying to support mobile devices with upstream kernels. It could also enable the Replicant project to more easily support future mobile devices that will have free software bootloaders, as some of them will also use kernels that are meant to run GNU/Linux."
> back in 2012ish I had a Galaxy S3 and Cyanogenmod, I don't know if it is libre
No, Cyanogen Mod was not libre. Replicant began as a libre fork of it, just as Trisquel is a libre fork of Ubuntu. AFAIK Replicant is now based off LineageOS, which is the successor Cyanogen.
The blog post that you linked was posted in January of 2019, is there any progress on the Necuno? I am interested in this as well, it even ships without a modem (and calls itself a phone)! On the Necunos website I looked at their blog posts but it requires javascript all I can see is that the latest one was posted April 01 2019 (Maybe an april fool's post).
As for the BSD porting to touchscreen, I just gave as an example I have no clue about BSD coming to touchscreen, nor have I ever used BSD.
New video today of one of the new PinePhones being assembled by hand and running: https://invidio.us/watch?v=VyeD1sfQNoM
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