migrating from ubuntu 2004

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dep
dep
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/10/2023

greetings . . .

for a lot of years -- close to 15 -- i've been using ubuntu and upgrading
by changing the version names in the individual lines
in /etc/apt/sources.list. this has resulted in upgrades that required
little or no reconfiguration. having gotten a little cranky with canonical
lately -- no, a lot cranky -- i'm seeking an alternative, and trisquel
seems the likely choice.

however, there are certain "non-free" packages i need, particularly video
drivers.

so before i dive into downloading stuff, i have a couple of questions,
which are no doubt answered somewhere in the archives but i can't find
them.

the first is whether by pointing at the trisquel servers in
my /etc/apt/sources.list instead of ubuntu ones, i can switch by simply
doing the usual apt update / apt upgrade -- are the package names the
same? i've seen the script for upgrading from ubuntu 1204, but that hasn't
been of much use to me for about a decade. it seems as if the script does
mostly what i've been doing by hand, and i'd just as soon do it by hand.

second, is there a non-free repository for things like vid drivers? i
presume my other sources.list lines, that have to do with ppas and the
like, could remain intact.

finally, what version name (focal, jammy, for instance, should i employ;
more specifically, is there a model sources.list I could copy from?

thanks in advance.

--
dep

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Magic Banana

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Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

First of all: welcome!

there are certain "non-free" packages i need, particularly video drivers.

The Trisquel community will not "help" you install non-free software, because it does not consider it would actually be helping you: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines

by pointing at the trisquel servers in my /etc/apt/sources.list instead of ubuntu ones, i can switch by simply doing the usual apt update / apt upgrade

Non-free packages would remain and would never be upgraded, even if vulnerabilities in them are exploited.

If I were you, I would export the list of installed packages following https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/cloning-system-or-how-make-copy-installed-packages-one-computer-another (for instance), make a fresh install of Trisquel 11 Beta 6 (based on Ubuntu 22.04) using the ISO on https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/ providing your desktop environment of preference (tell us which one it is if you do not know what ISO to download) and import the packages. Those that are not installable are certainly proprietary software.

are the package names the same?

Yes.

is there a non-free repository for things like vid drivers?

No. Trisquel is 100% free software.

i presume my other sources.list lines, that have to do with ppas and the like, could remain intact.

You can save those files before the fresh install too. For your own sake, I hope you will not re-add PPAs proposing proprietary software.

what version name (focal, jammy, for instance, should i employ

The code name of Trisquel 10 (based on Ubuntu 20.04) is Nabia. That of Trisquel 11 (based on Ubuntu 22.04) is Aramo.

is there a model sources.list I could copy from?

Because I download the packages from https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/trisquel-packages/ (there are many other mirrors), I use Trisquel 11 Aramo, and I need not the source packages, my /etc/apt/sources.list is:
# Trisquel repositories for supported software and updates
deb https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/trisquel-packages/ aramo main
deb https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/trisquel-packages/ aramo-security main
deb https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/trisquel-packages/ aramo-updates main
deb https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/trisquel-packages/ aramo-backports main

dep
dep
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/10/2023

said name at domain:

| The Trisquel community will not "help" you install non-free software,
| because it does not consider it would actually be helping you:
| https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines
| . . .
| Non-free packages would remain and would never be upgraded, even if
| vulnerabilities in them are exploited.

This could be a fatal problem for me. I certainly need Nvidia drivers and
the associated configuration software. I certainly need scanner software
that comes only as binary blobs. And even Debian, long the gold standard
in ideological purity, makes allowance for the occasional necessity of
non-free software.

| If I were you, I would export the list of installed packages following
| https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/cloning-system-or-how-make-copy-installed-
|packages-one-computer-another (for instance), make a fresh install of
| Trisquel 11 Beta 6 (based on Ubuntu 22.04) using the ISO on
| https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/ providing your desktop environment
| of preference (tell us which one it is if you do not know what ISO to
| download) and import the packages. Those that are not installable are
| certainly proprietary software.

The CD builds directory to which you pointed me is apparently empty,
whether I enable the associated script -- itself kind of non-free, I
think; it's picked up by NoScript and I don't have access to its
contents -- or not. I use the Trinity Desktop, which is certainly free. I
do not know if you roll a CD that contains it. (I've used it and its KDE
predecessor sunce the day KDE 1.0 was released in July 1998.)

| i presume my other sources.list lines, that have to do with ppas and the
| like, could remain intact.
|
| You can save those files before the fresh install too. For your own
| sake, I hope you will not re-add PPA proposing proprietary software.

Again, I'm unclear as to whose sake this would be for. I find my sake to be
enhanced by my being able to use my monitors and my scanner.

Thanks very much for the information, and Trisquel does indeed seem
promising, and I think ideological purity is a fine thing, but having a
computer that works is for me a finer thing.
--
dep

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Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

I certainly need Nvidia drivers and the associated configuration software.

For Nvidia's GPUs, Trisquel ships with the nouveau driver, which is free software. If, in addition to the Nvidia card, you have Intel integrated graphics, they may give better performances, depending on what we are talking about (for instance, I believe Intel's driver provides better video decoding performance).

The CD builds directory to which you pointed me is apparently empty

It is not anymore: https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/

According to https://trisquel.info/forum/aramo-iso-beta-6-mar-07-2023 an issue was detected between my post above and your reply. It is now fixed, apparently.

I use the Trinity Desktop, which is certainly free.

The Trinity Desktop Environment is not in the repository of Trisquel 11 Aramo, which essentially contains the free packages in Ubuntu 22.04 Jammy's repositories, but with some freedom-enhancing patches.

If you know how to edit files in a terminal (for instance using nano), install https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/trisquel-netinst_11.0_amd64.iso and follow the instructions on https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Preliminary_Stable_Builds substituting "your-distribution-release-name" for "jammy".

If not, install another ISO (with MATE if you install https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/trisquel_11.0_amd64.iso , with KDE if you install https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/triskel_11.0_amd64.iso , etc.) and follow the same instructions on Trinity's wiki (still using "jammy" for "your-distribution-release-name"). You may then remove the desktop environment you will not use anymore (or keep it: it just takes disk space).

Again, I'm unclear as to whose sake this would be for.

Definitely yours. Whatever you run on your machine only affects you.

I find my sake to be enhanced by my being able to use my monitors and my scanner.

The nouveau driver will allow you to use your monitors. If your card is very recent (Trisquel 11 is based on Ubuntu 22.04, which was released in April 2022), you may need a newer kernel. https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/freesh explains how to install the latest Linux-libre kernel on any distribution using APT, Trisquel included.

Many scanners have free drivers too, but yours may be out of the list.

dep
dep
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/10/2023

said name at domain:

| For Nvidia's GPUs, Trisquel ships with the nouveau driver, which is free
| software. If, in addition to the Nvidia card, you have Intel integrated
| graphics, they may give better performances, depending on what we are
| talking about (for instance, I believe Intel's driver provides better
| video decoding performance).

I've tried the nouveau driver. It does not perform well on my setup. The
Nvidia OEM one does. I do not have, nor do I want, built-in video. I shode
my vid card for a reason.

I suppose I should note, not to wade too deeply into the philosophy of it
all, that among the various ways of looking at freedom is freedom to
configure my computer as I wish, so as to use it as I want to perform the
tasks I choose to perform. This is not meant as a criticism of you or
Trisquel, merely an expression of my desire to explore Trisquel and
possibly to migrate to it if I can continue to enjoy freedom as I see it.
Without the ability to use drivers that are seen by some as ideologically
impure, I'll have to undertake the probably more difficult task of
migrating to Debian instead.

| If you know how to edit files in a terminal (for instance using nano),
| install
| https://cdbuilds.trisquel.org/aramo/trisquel-netinst_11.0_amd64.iso and
| follow the instructions on
| https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Preliminary_Stable_Builds substituting
| "your-distribution-release-name" for "jammy".

Yes, I know how to install TDE. Further, I hope and presume -- please
correct me if I'm wrong here -- that it is possible simply to
point /etc/apt/sources.list to Trisquel servers rather than Ubuntu and to
affect a migration. Is this so? Additionally, it seems foolish to try to
change the distro *and* the version in one bite, so I'd need either to do
the version upgrade -- 20.04 in Ubuntu nomenclature to 22.04 -- in Ubuntu
or to migrate from 20.04 to whatever its Trisquel equivalent is and then
upgrade to the current release. That's simply to make resolving the
inevitable breakages a bit easier.

Right so far?

What worries me is that Trisquel might try to shoehorn stuff I very much
don't want -- nouveau is top of the list -- and that I'd be left with no
source of software I need. I suppose I could try to track down their PPAs,
but what I don't want is something coming in and breaking well-tuned
configurations.
--
dep

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Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

I've tried the nouveau driver. It does not perform well on my setup.

As I told you, the newer kernels may better support it (or not): https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/freesh

I suppose I should note, not to wade too deeply into the philosophy of it all, that among the various ways of looking at freedom is freedom to configure my computer as I wish, so as to use it as I want to perform the tasks I choose to perform.

Sure. Just do not expect anybody here will assist you in installing/configuring/using proprietary software, drivers included. As I told you, it is against the guidelines of this community.

I hope and presume -- please correct me if I'm wrong here -- that it is possible simply to point /etc/apt/sources.list to Trisquel servers rather than Ubuntu and to affect a migration. Is this so?

As I told you: "Non-free packages would remain and would never be upgraded, even if vulnerabilities in them are exploited". That is why I proposed you to install Trisquel from an ISO, after saving the list of packages, /etc (it contains the configuration of the system), and everything in the user home folders (what you probably already do: backups are importants), what includes the personal configuration of their applications. In this way, you can reuse all that on your fresh Trisquel system, if you wish. By the way, if your /home is on a separate partition (is it?), you can tell the installer to reuse it, without formatting.

Additionally, it seems foolish to try to change the distro *and* the version in one bite, so I'd need either to do the version upgrade -- 20.04 in Ubuntu nomenclature to 22.04 -- in Ubuntu or to migrate from 20.04 to whatever its Trisquel equivalent is and then upgrade to the current release. That's simply to make resolving the inevitable breakages a bit easier.

Installing Trisquel 11 from the ISO will not break anything: you start afresh. You then install and configure whatever you want on top of Trisquel 11.

What worries me is that Trisquel might try to shoehorn stuff I very much don't want -- nouveau is top of the list -- and that I'd be left with no source of software I need.

As I told you, Trisquel's repository is 100% free software. That is not "shoehorning". It is making system administration easy for those who refuse proprietary software: without third-party repositories, there is no way proprietary software is installed by mistake.

prospero
Desconectado/a
se unió: 05/20/2022

Oh yes, I also got a bit cranky with Canonical years ago, and switched to Trisquel. I am glad that Canonical still makes Ubuntu, which in turn makes Trisquel possible, together with the Linux-libre scripts. In case you had been wondering, Trisquel is a daily driver for most of us here, we all have computers, monitors, keyboards, scanners and network cards that work fine, with the added benefit of not letting a single known non-free blob restrain our OS. And we certainly have lots of different uses for our computers. We are not exactly wasting our days dreaming of "ideological purity" while engraving stone tablets or sending patchouli smoke signals.

So we would like to ascertain that you are making your choices with full knowledge of the facts. If you are still wondering how we manage, feel free to ask in further details and we will help you to the best of our abilities, experience and knowledge. This is indeed the right place to do so, given the choices that have now been made elsewhere by other projects and fallen "gold standards".

dep
dep
Desconectado/a
se unió: 03/10/2023

said name at domain:

| Oh yes, I also got a bit cranky with Canonical years ago, and switched
| to Trisquel. I am glad that Canonical still makes Ubuntu, which in turn
| makes Trisquel possible, together with the Linux-libre scripts. In case
| you had been wondering, Trisquel is a daily driver for most of us here,
| we all have computers, monitors, keyboards, scanners and network cards
| that work fine, with the added benefit of not letting a single known
| non-free blob restrain our OS. And we certainly have lots of different
| uses for our computers. We are not exactly wasting our days dreaming of
| "ideological purity" while engraving stone tablets or sending patchouli
| smoke signals.

Thanks very much. Some of your points resonate with me, not least being
Trisquel's reliance on Ubuntu. As to the restraint imposed by binary
blobs, I've over the years had my computing be more restrained by free
drivers and the like that ain't soup yet. I bear no ill will to anyone who
is happy with those things, but I likewise won't pretend to be among them.

I'd be perfectly happy to continue to use Ubuntu, as modified by me, but
for Canonical's spyware/clubware forays onto my hard drive. That's it. A
few years ago my ISP sent a note saying that it was turning its email
service over to something called "OATH," which said basically that it was
claiming ownership of anything I sent by email. An hour later, all my
email was over ProtonMail, and by week's end all my traffic was via
ProtonVPN. Which were at the time closed-source, so they would have been
forbidden by Trisquel (though someone might have pointed me to a free
application that converted email to pig-latin or Rot19 or something).

In 25 years of Linux use I've discovered many in the community who are very
narrowly focused, not unlike Witchfinder Sergeant Shadwell of "Good
Omens." I cannot afford to be among them -- I need to solve problems, not
devote time to determining how many nipples the solution has.

| So we would like to ascertain that you are making your choices with full
| knowledge of the facts. If you are still wondering how we manage, feel
| free to ask in further details and we will help you to the best of our
| abilities, experience and knowledge. This is indeed the right place to
| do so, given the choices that have now been made elsewhere by other
| projects and fallen gold standards.

Thanks very much, again. You and others have made the position of
Trisquel's community extremely clear, and there is no way I can join it. I
have no time for crusades. Nor will I lop off a hand as treatment --
effective, no doubt, but excessive -- for a hangnail. I pretty clearly
must use the available tools and migrate to Debian. I wish you and
everyone here well, but I must be concerned with efficient computing over
ideological purity.

Btw, gold is up $52 today. Just sayin'.
--
dep

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Magic Banana

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Desconectado/a
se unió: 07/24/2010

An hour later, all my email was over ProtonMail, and by week's end all my traffic was via ProtonVPN. Which were at the time closed-source, so they would have been forbidden by Trisquel (though someone might have pointed me to a free application that converted email to pig-latin or Rot19 or something).

Trisquel does not "forbid" anything. It just does not distribute nor recommend proprietary software. Proton VPN utilizes OpenVPN, by default in Trisquel.

I need to solve problems, not devote time to determining how many nipples the solution has.
(...)
I have no time for crusades.

Keep on imagining one cannot achieve work using only free software, if you wish. It is wrong though, as prospero has already written. Personally, for the past thirteen years or so, all the computers I use (at work and home) have solely been running Trisquel. I teach computer science, I program, I write scientific articles, etc.

jxself
Desconectado/a
se unió: 09/13/2010

> Thanks very much. Some of your points resonate with me, not least being
> Trisquel's reliance on Ubuntu. As to the restraint imposed by binary
> blobs, I've over the years had my computing be more restrained by free
> drivers and the like that ain't soup yet.

This appears to be a logical fallacy known as hasty generalization, where someone makes a broad generalization based on insufficient evidence. In this case, it appears that you're assuming that because you've had problems with some free software in the past, all free software will be problematic for you in the future. This is an unfounded assumption and ignores that there are many different types of free software, that your experience with one program does not necessarily apply to all others.

Additionally, this may also involve the fallacy of false dilemma, presenting a false choice between using free software or proprietary software. This is by assuming that because you've have had problems with free software, you must use proprietary software to do your work, when in reality, there may be different free software programs available to use instead (there can often be more than one free program for a given task), or that those same programs have improved since then. It assumes the situation remains static and unchanging, and that proprietary software has none of those problems where it never fails to meet a person's needs.

> I need to solve problems, not devote time to determining how many
> nipples the solution has.

This appears to be an example of a red herring fallacy, also known as irrelevant argument fallacy. It seems to divert the conversation away from the actual issue of whether free software is a viable option by introducing an irrelevant argument about needing to focus on solving problems and, by doing so, introducing the assumption that free software automatically cannot. While it's important to focus on solving problems, it doesn't necessarily follow that free software cannot be a viable option for addressing those problems. This argument is therefore irrelevant to the question of whether or not free software can be effective for your needs.