Call for discussion: move from x86/64
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Maybe I was wrong.
But anyway, I'll tell you my visions and hear your thoughts.
arm came before x86/64 and seme apparently will stay after x86
Honestly I think it's the future
Most of the devices in this days use arm
Apparently, in my simple experience, its freer from x86/64
Yeah, I admit it has a lot of problems.
for example it's slower and generates more heat
But it's the future.
I think distributions should focus on ARM instead of x86.
What do you think?
Well nothing stops you from forking an arm version of any Linux-libre distro
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I think the issue is not distributions focusing on ARM. It's not like Debian, for example, is only available on the x86 architecture. Here is a full selection of architectures that can run Debian GNU/Linux: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mips64el mipsel ppc64el s390x
The issue is hardware that is available for consumers that works as a replacement of x86 systems.
There is the Leemote Yeeloong (sorry if I spell it wrong), but it is not a viable option for a LOT of everyday uses.
Because most users are running x86 machines, the standard version of each distro is an x86 version. But Linux-libre can run on SO many different architectures. All remotely modern CPUs can run Linux-libre. And, by extension, those CPUs can run GNU/Linux distributions.
While you may be right to claim x86 is not going to be the future, it is not up to developers of free software to push for ARM or any other platform. It is up to hardware developers to offer viable options for consumers. If someone has a mipsel, ppc, or arm CPU they can already try Debian GNU/Linux (and by extension I assume Trisquel as well) on their machines.
But so far most of us are stuck with x86 (correct me if I'm wrong, but there is barely any real alternative in laptops and desktop PCs?). In and of itself x86 is quite good, it's been doing all our computing for such a long time and look how much software we could develop with it.
Imho, it's the combination of circumstances that makes x86 problematic. Libreboot runs best on Intel platforms and modern Intel platforms have Intel ME. That means running core2quad systems at most if you want to avoid Intel ME completely! While libreboot compatible AMD platforms are only practical in a server environment...
So maybe we should not think about switching from x86 to something else, but instead we should think about how to get Libreboot on more AMD platforms or how to make Intel stop using the ME-crap.
Edit: I was unaware that AMD platforms have an issue similar to Intel ME. So my point about trying to make Libreboot run on AMD platforms doesn't work. I still think the whole issue is more on the side of hardware than software. Linux-libre will run on anything. ATM we just don't have a real alternative to the aging x86 core2X systems when it comes to laptops and desktop PCs...
"There is the Leemote Yeeloong (sorry if I spell it wrong), but it is not a viable option for a LOT of everyday uses."
It's also discontinued and practically impossible to find. In fact, a lot of systems that are good for our freedom are discontinued.
It's time to evacuate the Titanic: https://jxself.org/titanic.shtml
My understanding is that ARM and POWER9 are targets for Trisquel 10. I am already compiling Linux-libre for those: https://jxself.org/linux-libre/
ARM is owned by Nvidia now who have a terrible history of supporting freedom and open drivers on their products. I think better alternatives to x86 would be Power9 and RISC-V. Power9 is obviously expensive but RISC-V can be had for less and both have a better chance of staying free than ARM.
RISC-V!!
Where is it
Just hear about it
We have nothing concrete.
There are no pieces on the market
Just Studies and papers.
> it's the future.
Well, if RISC-V is indeed "just studies and papers", it can only be the future.
In fact, it seems it somehow managed to get out of the studies and papers:
https://www.sifive.com/blog/the-heart-of-risc-v-development-is-unmatched
I am optimistic about Power9 CPU with Talos 2 main boards. Talos 2 and
Talos 2 lite even has FSF's respects your freedom certification[1].
[1] https://ryf.fsf.org/news/raptor-talos-announcement
--
Abhisek Paira
E34E 825B 979E EB9F 8505 F80E E93D 353B 7740 0709
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
Power9 CPU
I feel it is dedicated to servers and not oriented to the desktop
I had a feeling that any topic asking about ARM support would most probably get, in random order:
- Pinebook needs proprietary blobs to work,
- [name your favorite ARM DIY project] is far from completion/in limbo/discontinued/blocked by some unsurmountable obstacles,
- POWERPC but it's too expensive,
- RISC-V but it does not exist yet.
> My understanding is that ARM and POWER9 are targets for Trisquel 10. I am already compiling Linux-libre for those
Now that seems to answer the OP's question.
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RISC-V from sifive seems like an interesting option, lots of RAM on this little board for just $665USD.
There are lots of new opportunities actually. All-new RISC-V based desktop computers and laptops need to be build. This architecture seems also to be more efficient (higher performance per Watt). I'm optimistic it will all be for the better in the end, just imagine: cool and super fast machines with libreboot and Trisquel everywhere :-)
The responses to the freedom challenges of x86 are evolving - even Leah Rowe is now selling retrobooted i7 laptops that have undergone me_cleaner on her Retrofreedom website: https://retrofreedom.com/product/retroboot-x230/
I'll bet these will be a hot seller.
The future, like the past, is probably going to be x86, simply due to availability and price. A Power9 workstation with similar specs will cost thousands of dollars, and there's nothing comparable in the ARM or Risc-V arena.
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Yeah, these laptops are looking great. Someday, I might get one of those.
Why do you think there's nothing comparable in the ARM and RISC-V arena? At least ARM CPUs seem very powerfull, high-end smartphones could run any desktop application. Or am I mistaken?
Modern ARM chips are pretty good compared to 10+ year old Thinkpad x86 chips, I'm sure. But the benchmarks show they don't compare well at all to modern Intel or AMD chips. So you would be taking a performance hit. A good device to look at would be a Pinebook or an ARM based Chromebook, and yes those will do web browsing and office work OK.
Apple's got their new M1 ARM chip which appears to be more competitive against modern x86 chips, but that one is only going to be available on a Macbook, and will have significant problems getting GNU/Linux to run at all, much less deal with all the freedom problems.
RISC-V chips should theoretically be able to catch up with x86, but I think we've been hearing about the promise of various RISC designs since the 1980s, but are still waiting for them to actually be available and competitive. The one benchmark comparison I saw from December showed fantastic performance per watt for the new MicroMagic RISC-V processor, but only performing about a third as fast overall as a recent Ryzen processor: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/new-risc-v-cpu-claims-recordbreaking-performance-per-watt/
In terms of energy efficiency, that MicroMagic RISC-V chip looks great, but in terms of total processing power, it's still trailing far behind.
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I wasn't aware about this big of a performance gap between RISC-V and x86.
I hope something will emerge eventually. Either RISC-V will catch up or a fix for x86. Maybe a third company besides Intel and AMD? Like back when AMD was new.
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