a whole thread seems missing : does this forum censor ?(!)

54 réponses [Dernière contribution]
eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

The first post contained an in my view great video that can be found searching for " WARNING FOR HUMANITY / Covid-19 vaccine & transhumanism " in bitchute.com or brighteon.com, and did set the topic.
It received quite some down-votes, showing infantile herd behaviour attempting to influence interpretations or possibly encourage a ban.
Within this long thread religious and non-conforming ideas were ridiculed in an arrogant manner with neither much substance nor open-minded intelligence.
This is degrading but it is as it is, why not accept it ?
After all, just about everyone lives in its own bubble and about nobody else will fully understand what one tries to communicate anyway, although few people are aware of funny "fact".
I am neither religious nor care for materialistic theories apart from entertaining the mind or from triggering intuition and guidance while "groping in the dark" ( the latter may appear as light and time ).
Whatever can be thought, can not be true or real, being limited and unstable, and noisy.
Nevertheless i happen to object to censorship and not to care about sensitive egos and political objectives.
Is the disappearance of the thread resulting from intolerant action on the part of the Trisquel project ?
In that case i would like to namely "cancel" my plan to support it financially ( being unfortunately unable to do so in a more constructive way ), while continuing using its o.s. ;), which is not to be criticized too harshly since i donated already a small initial amount that has been strangely enough been the one but highest listed during the last year, so i assume it should suffice for the next ten years to avoid wondering about having abused unselfish efforts to create an actually wonderful distro.
Interaction with computers does reprogram us, however some software is relatively more free, open and agreeable.

nadebula.1984
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 05/01/2018

As long as communism hasn't been realized, dictatorship (including censorship) is always necessary.

In capitalist/imperialist countries, there is bourgeoisie dictatorship. In socialist countries, there is proletariat dictatorship.

Geshmy
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/23/2015

From the top of this forum's page:
"Formerly called "the troll hole", this place has aged nicely and sometimes provides a cozy environment for off-topic conversations. Also trolling --just not all the time--. Visitors are encouraged to still be civic."

So no problem posting about "a wider variety of topics."

Maintaining a sense of community is beneficial to FSF/Trisquel. Off topic discussions are wanted because we need to take a break from software stuff once in a while.

I had just read that thread a few days ago and though there was a lot of objectionable statements (lacking a bit in civility mostly), it acquainted me with some conspiracy trends I had not heard of and I did enjoy a lot of the back and forth. I'm really interested in this conspiracy virus and all it's variants these days.

I guess I don't care if the thread was removed but perhaps an official explanation of why by the moderator would help. Are you the moderator FindEssential?

The code of conduct (where is that from?) list is all good except:
>The forum / mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Trisquel. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome.
That doesn't jibe with "Formerly called "the troll hole", this place has aged nicely and sometimes provides a cozy environment for off-topic conversations. Also trolling --just not all the time--. Visitors are encouraged to still be civic."

>Within this long thread religious and non-conforming ideas were ridiculed in an arrogant manner with neither much substance nor open-minded intelligence.
While I do recall some members seemed to put some serious thought into their tempered replies, I also felt bad that there was a lot arrogance and ridicule going on too.

Maybe the thread was removed so that other visitors wouldn't see that embarrassing behavior.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

> where is that from?

On every page of this forum, under "Please read and follow the Community Guidelines", you will find this:

https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines

I would take it as the default set of rules, and the Troll Lounge as a special place "for off-topic conversations" where "visitors are encouraged to still be civic".

I also think that the more we can hear about what people believe and have to say, the more we will learn. Also, it creates some space for lighthearted discussions. However, I am only a passenger here so I am not the one to set the rules. I thought that moving the thread to the Troll Lounge was the right thing to do. I eventually lost interest as name calling and self-righteous comments began to flood in.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

You need to answer Geshny's question - have you been officially named the moderator? If yes, you need to announce it, and on whose authority you've been given that role. If not, you need to stop acting like you are a moderator.

Regardless, your attitude is quite humorous. You think any of us care if our goofy comments on some idiotic thread are immortalized for eternity in stone or erased by some ham-fisted moderator maniacally pounding on the delete key. We don't care. Watching people over-react is just part of the fun.

And you think we will suffer a loss if the troll lounge is shut down, but you don't understand the whole concept of the troll lounge. The troll lounge is not here to give us some wild feeling of freedom to discuss taboo subjects. It's here to try to contain our trolling and good humor and wildly off-topic pics and posts that would otherwise spill over into the other user forums.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

> ham-fisted moderator maniacally pounding on the delete key.

This is the best description of my dream job to date.

By the way, the answer from the TLCPC is just in. Since our original request was made in the Romanian forum, the TLCPC's answer also came in Romanian so I will try to give it a fair translation:

"Why on Barnard's Star did you apply for asylum? We are the Troll Lounge Code Compliance Enforcement Committee (yes, we are now known as the TLCCEC, please update your address books) and the Troll Lounge is our de jure jurisdiction. Anyone claiming otherwise shall be banned forever from even entertaining the idea of posting here, or have their morphed garden dwarf picture published in lieu of each and every attempt thereof."

Good gracious! TLCPC/TLCCEC has not surrendered one inch in its unrelenting enforcement of the Code.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

Ahh, so that's what happened to Masaru - he's been turned into a garden dwarf, like Han Solo frozen in carbonite, and therefore can't use his frozen fingers to type out a "HELP ME" post. We need to storm Jabba's palace and free him.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

According to the Code, emergency morphing is allowed in his case, but have you ever tried to morph while frozen in a dwarf-shaped block of carbonite?

The Benevolent Hutt Council has decided to support your motion, some action is in order. I'll be off checking our new carpenter ant clone stormer battalion.

kerdadit
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 06/06/2018

Arrogance? To me, the arrogance was/is on display by those who made/make ridiculous, pseudo-scientific or religious claims, such as "masks cause brain damage" and vaccines are "the mark of the beast". I agree that it's best to err on the side of civility and respect, which is why I removed one of my messages (quite tame for message board standards, by the way). But by that point, the thread was in the troll hole. Furthermore, some of us may worship Lucifer here - or other religions - and find it impolite to have a certain other gods twisted agendas promoted on this forum.

Unfortunately, as MagicBanana had pointed out in that thread, it takes no time to spew harmful misinformation and lots of time and tedium to refute it. Case in point: the other day my mom informed me that she was not going to be taking the vaccine. Now I have to spend my time carefully researching and refuting each one of her concerns which are based on Facebook Karen FUD such as was on display at the aforementioned thread. I have no problem looking into genuine scientific debate, but this is all simply nonsense by *arrogant* individuals who are casualties of the Dunning-Kruger effect, paranoid delusions, and yes, arrogance. This stuff is in fact very harmful to society.

That said, I was happy to see the thread stay up in the troll lounge. But I'm glad it's gone. This forum belongs to the Trisquel project and they - whoever they are - have every right to moderate it how they see fit. Including suspending my own account if they deem it necessary. For example, you can't promote proprietary software here. That's not censorship and 1984, it's just forum moderation.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

A crucial question here may be how one moderates without censoring.
It is not clear yet who deleted the thread and with what reasons and interpretations.
Fakebook seems to get away with removing "hate-speech" which sounds similar to part of the standards set here.
Once censorship is embraced, the limitation of free speech can take any form.
Topics in the Troll Lounge are supposed to be outside the realm of Trisquel.
Spam in the sense of promoting products was not an issue, nor were non-English language use and large attachments.
There was no profanity at play, except in the original meaning "indifference to religion".
There was ridicule and some teasing.
However the terms "civility" and "discrimination" are rather problematic, being subjective, vague and sometimes tricky.
E.g. politeness can render an unaware target defenseless while warding off criticism.
It could be used as a tool in an aggressive, covert assault.
Who is to judge wether respect is genuine ?
Moderation may lead thus to censoring raw, straightforward and honest content while sparing dirty games.

By its very nature does any belief-system states that it holds the truth ( and that other beliefs are, well, merely beliefs ).
"The" science is not different, while even ever changing its theories and remaining divided all along.
"Pseudo-science" is to pseudo-scientists that which contradicts what they happen to believe.
A proper scientist neither believes nor knows, yes : not even not to know ;).

Kerdadit, please stop flaming before this threat disappears as well, as delusional individuals who are casualties of the Dunning-Kruger effect likely deserve respect here.
I won't present a list of reputable, currently non-conformist scientists in relevant fields that could probably wipe the floor with all studies you could find and hand-pick.
An endless scientific debate will bore the trolls to whom this lounge is dedicated.
Let us imagine for a change that in a year from now our positions on vaccines ( rna, dna or other ) and masks wiil be reversed : would that be possible ?
Exactly one year ago i was concerned about this covid-1984 virus.
In march i found myself in a mega-store among thousands of people of which only one wore a diaper on his face : and that was me !
By that time the experts advised against it.
Three months later this whole hoax lost all ground in my head.
Let's see what happens in the year ahead.

For those who simply can not fathom or emotionally digest the idea that we could live in a thoroughly corrupt and untrustworthy "civilization", it may too hard to ignore official narratives.
God may forgive such souls when manipulated and misled into taking the mark of the Beast.
Let's hope so.

kerdadit
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 06/06/2018

For me, nadebula's first reply was significant. In any case, I will bow out of the conversation. Suffice it to say that I don't think the thread was removed in order to suppress any scientific discoveries or prophetic warnings, but rather to prevent a flame war that they must have felt was coming on. I'm not looking for that, so I'll shut up! ;)

FindEssential
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/23/2017

Agreed, on all fronts. Some people really just have nothing better to do, I feel sorry for them. I worry the internet has become a monster that does more harm than good at this point. I remember all the positivity about the idea in the beginning and experienced a lot of it, but not in a long time. Now the internet is just a dumpster people put their hate and unwelcome vitriol in.

gaseousness
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/25/2020

don't blindy trust their non-free software, just their science you can't personally verify? In real life you can see no one dying or more sick than any other year and most people wearing a mask, but they wanna claim the numbers are increasing, but the mask is effective? and they've said it can take decades to create a vaccine, but in a few months all these companies have one? "you"tube

Geshmy
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/23/2015

Eagle,
>I won't present a list of reputable, currently non-conformist scientists in relevant fields that could probably wipe the floor with all studies you could find and hand-pick.
The whole world is studying everything they can think of related to this virus. Studies (studies should come before opinions are hardened, no?) are going on in universities, corporate and independent laboratories all over the world. I am sure you could present a list, but the number of your non-comformists would be relatively small. But in the end we each choose to believe what we believe. As society develops consensus some behaviors cannot be chosen, but beliefs belong to the individual. At least that's the idea in America.

gaseousness,
>and they've said it can take decades to create a vaccine, but in a few months all these companies have one? "you"tube
For the reason they were able to develop vaccines at a speed never heard of in the past, I think all you have to do is look at your computer, a symbol of our EXPLODING technological capabilities. Ever read about IBM's Dr. Watson - there is so much new data in medical research produced all the time that only an AI like Dr. Watson can assimilate it.

gaseousness
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/25/2020

lol, my computer is pretty old, have seen way newer computers with higher specs running way more sluggishly cuz of garbage like windows 10, trisquel took about 2 min and change to boot off dvd live mode, and some ubuntu 18.04 point release with their snapd garbage took over 10 minutes, so i think software quality really depends on the results. i haven't heard of dr. watson from ibm. nowadays there's zoom to spy on the masses or could be cuz non-free and already has a link on gnu's website for fake end to end encrytption and used in the medical industry. even before a lot of then were using garbage like windows.

"It is unfortunate that you are using Zoom, a nonfree program that spies on users and takes away your students' computer freedom, along with your own."

https://www.gnu.org/education/teachers-help-students-resist-zoom.html

systemd-analyze

^ command you can use to get the time it took to boot up.

eric23
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 06/30/2017

I'm not sure it's been mentioned, but if a user deletes their account, all their posts and our replies go *poof*. So maybe that's what happened to that thread.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

the number of your non-comformists would be relatively small
=> that's unsurprisingly correct, fortunately is the truth decided upon by the majority ( whether or not more corruptible and herd-driven ), this is "our" democrazy.

beliefs belong to the individual
=> no, it is the other way around, or more precise, slaves do.

At least that's the idea in America
=> watch "America to split into FREE states vs censored "slave" states".
https://www.brighteon.com/6a0f4998-251a-4fbf-9ef3-5e02240cbff4
Let's see if this mad video by a guy who is probably not overly popular among the majority here, gets this thread deleted, so that i do not need to do that, while testing the wakefulness ( or wokeness ? my American is not that good ) of the so far unknown moderator.
The fellow comes up with interesting ideas regarding censorship, including future solutions like that of a holographic internet ( from the 37th min. to the 45th min. ), and cracks quite a few "incorrect" jokes along the way.

Geshmy
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/23/2015

Eagle,
of Brighton.com, Natural News and NewsTarget
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News

That podcast you link to is of self declared founder of brighteon.com and 'other things,' Michael Allen "Mike" Adams.
(from wikipedia) "Natural News (formerly NewsTarget, which is now a separate sister site) is an anti-vaccination conspiracy theory and fake news website known for promoting pseudoscience and far-right extremism.[1][2][3] Characterized as a "conspiracy-minded alternative medicine website", Natural News has approximately 7 million unique visitors per month.[4]

The site's founder, Michael Allen "Mike" Adams, gained attention after posting a blog entry implying a call for violence against proponents of GMO foods..."

There is a whole lot more about that 'mad video guy' in the wikipedia article I read (a lot of worse things said of him) but if your interested you can read it.

I've long been interested in 'alternative medicines' as well as organic and natural foods but I view promoting violence and division as destructive not to mention unhealthy. How about you?

Edit: wanted to add I appreciate eric23's information. Perhaps that is what happened. I have no idea who started the missing thread.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Well, just watch the video and you will notice that this guy has a lot of good points and sides.
He is a fan of open and free software, pro ecological lifestyle and a courageous, original rebel.
I did not hear him promote violence or discrimination so far, to the contrary.
Whatever, don't shoot the messenger while ignoring all parts of the message.
Nobody is a "saint" anyway, and the human world would be a boring place if everyone had to be one.
People that can not accept the presence of conflicting viewpoints should consider fleeing to North-Korea.

Actually he seems in essence to care more about freedom than left- or right-wing power, liking and criticizing personalities on both sides.
I may be wrong here, have never followed the specifics of political theatres, and do not intend to interfere with this kind of flatland phenomenons, also never did, not even by voting.
But if others take a position in this area, it is their business.

Wikipedia may be one of the worst sources to quote.
Its co-founder wrote the following about it :
https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/
It appears to be far from neutral, in fact simply extremely violent, intolerant and unreasonable to an absurd extent.
In other words, it looks like wikipedia has become an embodiment of censorship.

gaseousness
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/25/2020

"I view promoting violence and division as destructive not to mention unhealthy. How about you?"

yes

mike adams is a faker to me.

https://www.naturalnews.com/056138_New_York_Times_nutritional_supplements_propaganda.html

^ what plant do you know that grows pills, makes no sense to me.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=R9iSGoggNG0

^ real peanut butter

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

> what plant do you know that grows pills

Well, the Oceania piltree and the Oaxaca pill cactus have been used since immemorial times to cure various pillnesses in their respective areas.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

Quiet - you'll kill the narrative with your irritating facts. It's very rude and unscientific to kill the narrative with facts.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

You are very strict today. Here, take these freshly harvested pill cactus pellets, it will do you good.

I do not recommend cabbage any more, people get hooked too easily.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

UPDATE: according to a recent meta-analysis, cabbage might in fact be less addictive than turnip juice.

I might therefore take to cautiously recommending cabbage again, albeit with moderate dosage: half an hour to one hour a day sounds reasonable enough.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

Cabbage will make you disappear like Masaru.

I think we all need to heed Masaru's words of wisdom from his second-to-the-last post in December 2020: "Does he allow you to do blow jobs for the downvoted times? Haha."

Truer words were never spoken. This could be the motto for the new Software Freedom Society ("SFS"). The FSF had as its principle document the book "Free as in Freedom" by RMS. I'm thinking the SFS needs its own cornerstone book - "Blow Jobs for the Downvoted Times" by Masaru Suzuqi. I will commence work to pull together all the great wisdom writings of Masaru into this one mammoth book for the ages.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

> all the great wisdom writings

Be sure not to leave this one out:

"Women have inherent benefit, but I want to be a man again, thank you."

Now he is a frozen dwarf, I wonder how much his vision of the universe might have changed.

andyprough
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 02/12/2015

I think we can learn a lot about Masaru's perspective as a frozen dwarf from one of his first posts in June 2019:

"Mashiragi never rerurned to this world again... he became an intermediate existence between ice and life, and wanders into space forever."

We need to find out what Jabba the Hutt did with Mashiragi - that's where we will find and rescue Masaru.

eric23
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 06/30/2017

The missing thread was someone called mYself I think. Here is another thread about a user that disappeared with the posts he started.

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/anyone-know-what-happened-boba

Mr. P
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 03/25/2020

I don't know why the discussion was removed, but I can understood the issues that probably will can produce a similar topic posted on a site sponsored by fsf, specially in the main forum. We don't need others enemies, or others ways to attack us....
For this I hope that no ones having be some type of problem for my posts or my opinions.

However, I'm not a baby or a stupid and I know that what I write on web stay here forever, for that reflect a lot before writing. I have not learn English at school, but on web and using computer, maybe that's why I might seem arrogant/bad/or else. But I don't wanna NEVER offend no ones, (every ones have his dead's..) only say my point of view. And to propose to analyze incongruence all around the official storytelling, and also the lost of freedoms in every part of us life, powered very fast by this situation. Just this.

And just to be clear, what I have write are not studies coming from Mr. Nobody like me, many scientists say this things. E.g.: Montagnier, a Nobel price not a no-vax leader..., call it «chimera virus» and explain well why him say that. Is the same for studies about relations between facial masks and cardiac issues, but I can't add a link (almost in wrong language) for every my word, like in a court. Everyone want can do a private research using my words, and build his self an opinion. But now I stop it here, because I don't want to have another discussion closed. :-):-)

About forums guide lines.
There are many funny and unnecessary topic in troll lounge, but staying there, without problems of archived spaces. No ones force you to participate at a discussion, if don't like it or believe it's a stupid or an unnecessary argument, to do it is a your free choice. And if a forum exist, people fell free to use it, following the rules obviously.
If a post is offensive or go so much far of topic focus is correct erase it, maybe also from troll lounge, but I believe that erase all the discussion for few posts is excessive. And if the argument is not inherent or other, is right delete it at the begin not after 50/60 replies, also to prevent misunderstandings. But it's only my point of view.
Personally I would have preferred block discussion and burring it at the end of list, in stead of erase it. In this way every one of us could have re-read it in 2025/2030, and maybe open a new discussion called "All the bullshit write about covid" or "All the bad decisions take in the name of covid".

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

And just to be clear, what I have write are not studies coming from Mr. Nobody like me, many scientists say this things. E.g.: Montagnier, a Nobel price not a no-vax leader...

Luc Montagnier, 88, is a no-vax leader: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/05/27/nobel-laureate-joins-anti-vaccination-crowd-at-autism-one/?sh=47eb37bf5c53

He has been suffering from the Nobel disease ever since he received the prize 12 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

He now works on silly theories such as DNA teleportation, defends pseudosciences such as homeopathy, repeats the bullshit about vaccines causing autism, etc. Unsurprisingly, his claims on the SARS-CoV-2 being man-made make no sense: https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/luc-montagnier-coronavirus-wuhan-lab-pseudoscience/

Amusingly, another Nobel laureate, Kary Mullis, who suffered the same Nobel disease (he started to defend astrology, denied climate change and ozone depletion, etc.), mainly defended that HIV was not the cause of AIDS... the discovery that gave Luc Montagnier his Nobel prize.

Is the same for studies about relations between facial masks and cardiac issues, but I can't add a link (almost in wrong language) for every my word, like in a court.

Bad excuse. Significant research findings are always published in English. Here is a link: http://thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9.pdf

That is a meta-analysis, the highest level of evidence in medicine. The findings include:
Face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection
The adjusted odd ratio associated with that claim is 0.15. It means you divide by ~7 your odds of getting infected by wearing a face mask.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Please let me repeat :
"By its very nature does any belief-system states that it holds the truth ( and that other beliefs are, well, merely beliefs ).
"The" science is not different, while even ever changing its theories and remaining divided all along.
"Pseudo-science" is to pseudo-scientists that which contradicts what they happen to believe.
A proper scientist neither believes nor knows, yes : not even not to know ;)."

Do you know all and everything ?
If not, you may miss an unknown number of important details.
Not to speak of dimensions and higher realities.
As mental nourishment I recommend "Tertium Organum" and "In search of the miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky, certainly above mainstream slander and boring ideas from conspiring, seemingly in general spineless "scientists", not to say "nobodies".

Let's remain open-minded and playful, and not get into an ugly fight about mere theories.

The Lancet might have become rather corrupted as well by now.
The idea that certain face-masks do reduce inoculation and give the body more time to respond effectively, sounds not too crazy.
But it does not cover a variety direct and indirect effects, short and longterm, so far spoken about or not.

May freedom of choice and thought prevail or should the establishment put anti-vaxxers into detention and re-education centers ?

I do not believe that Luc Montagnier is deranged, and he seems to have been quite successful treating covid-like symptoms with a time-tested cheap drug that the authorities suddenly declared unsafe, perhaps it threatened an agenda.

Another attacked scientist, Christian Perronne, who even lost his job as head of the infectious diseases department of a hospital although not yet at an university, is another hero as i see it, not scared to state inconvenient views.
https://www.algora.com/Algora_blog/2020/12/08/professor-perronne-and-the-vaccine-we-do-not-want-to-become-like-tomatoes-or-corn-transgenic-gmos
"So an RNA that is foreign to our body and administered by injection could code for DNA that is just as foreign, which can then integrate into our chromosomes. There is a real risk of transforming our genes permanently."
"I am all the more horrified, given that I have always been in favor of vaccines and I have chaired vaccine policy forums for years. Today we must say stop to this extremely disturbing plan. Louis Pasteur must be spinning in his grave.
Science, medical ethics and above all common sense must regain the upper hand."

What is common sense ?
G.K. Chesterton wrote :
"The madman is not the man who has lost his reason.
The madman is the man who has lost everything but his reason."
Welcome to the transhumanist world, controlled by AI-driven cyborgs and/or a bunch of unconscious psychopaths ( not all of the latter live in flatland, btw, as is assumed by "the" science ), or by the Devil himself.

Also by-the-way, although i do not trust any of these proposed "vaccines", some are likely less of a risk than others.
E.g. Novavax could be a far less evil option.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/novavax-covid-19-vaccine.html

MB, please do not take any of my words personally.
I have appreciated your help on kernels.
We merely appear to disagree on a few points, currently.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Where i wrote "inoculation" , entry of pathogens was meant.
Earlier in this thread i produced a funny typo : "threat" instead of "thread".

In the disappeared thread i made it unintentionally appear as if MB was one of "these damned fact-checkers" and still wanted to rectify that, but due to circumstances postponed it, quite unexpectedly, too long ;(.

Language always remains problematic, especially when transferred by the WorldWideWiretap called the internet, as there is not much real interaction between people there, merely subjective interpretations of words.

Mr. P does not need any excuse, but he has stated one : limited knowledge and no general use of the English language, which makes it troublesome to provide sources.

With "unconscious psychopath" i meant a psychopath ( a popular psychological concept these days ) living in a flat land, hence without a vertical dimension so to speak.
As a rule of thumb, materialism and science feel at home and safe there.
This is of course not to say that every scientist is an unconscious psychopath, nor a full-blown one.
Nor that anyone should care about what i happen to say.
Interestingly, Ouspensky considered the level of psychology in his time to be at the lowest level since the dawn of human civilization, and since then it undoubtedly deteriorated only further.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

By its very nature does any belief-system states that it holds the truth ( and that other beliefs are, well, merely beliefs ).
"The" science is not different, while even ever changing its theories and remaining divided all along.

No. Science is, before all, methodologies (such as double-blind and placebo-controlled clinical trials) to give us good reasons to believe what we believe and reach a consensus (not necessarily unanimity). Science never states it holds the truth. It proposes models and makes prediction. It is testable and is tested. When a new model better explains the universe, it is adopted, hence the "ever-changing" aspect you dislike and the reason why scientists do not state they hold the truth, only the best model so far.

On the other hand, you indeed have people who claim they hold the truth, because it is "common sense" (quantum dynamics is one of the most successful theory we developed, it is not "common sense" at all) or because an ancient book says so or... Those people do not test their claims. They do not make observations. They just claim they hold the truth, often invoking supernatural explanations ("higher realities", really?). As a consequence, their claims stay the same forever, no matter what. Anyway, they pretend the scientists are those who are not "open-minded"! In front of contradicting observations, they invoke a conspiracy (the Lancet is corrupt and so are all scientists publishing in it?).

History shows it is science that works.

I do not believe that Luc Montagnier is deranged, and he seems to have been quite successful treating covid-like symptoms with a time-tested cheap drug that the authorities suddenly declared unsafe, perhaps it threatened an agenda.

Luc Montagnier never "treated covid-like symptoms". Ever. He "only" claims the virus is human-made, based on an Indian preprint that was never even submitted to a journal, because its authors understood their interpretation was wrong: the small DNA subsequences common to SARS-CoV-2 and other viruses, including the VIH, are actually found in many other coronaviruses, including in the genomes of viruses affecting bats that show a 96% similarity with SARS-CoV-2.

"So an RNA that is foreign to our body and administered by injection could code for DNA that is just as foreign, which can then integrate into our chromosomes. There is a real risk of transforming our genes permanently."

That reason to refuse the vaccine makes little sense: if you are not vaccinated, the risk of having SARS-CoV-2 integrate into your DNA is much higher (although sill tiny). 5-8% of our DNA is viral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

It is almost getting funny.
I have heard the same story-line hundreds of times.
This is how "scientists" are programmed to become dangerous hypocrites and promoters of the by far most disastrous belief-system.
Students are not even encouraged to read "Tertium Organum¨.

"hence the "ever-changing" aspect you dislike and the reason why scientists do not state they hold the truth."
I do not dislike this "ever-changing" aspect at all.
Basically we at least seem to agree on its presence.
But listen to what scientists actually do state on a daily basis, and look at what these drunken gamblers do.

Theories, including your scientific ones, are great as long as common sense is not ignored or killed.
When abused by mad scientists and technocrats, the Devil steps out of the shadows.
Whether mercury in vaccines can cause autism somehow or not is merely a minor issue.
Turning the surface of this beautiful planet into a moon-landscape in no time, crushing its evolution, with unforeseeable and very longterm consequences, is sheer madness, not intelligence.
Nor is injecting gmo-genes or other weird stuff, for that matter.
There is a theory floating around that extra-terrestrial aliens are trying to wipe out humanity now, in order to save the earth.
If this is the case, suspicion that they actually want it all for themselves is not that far-fetched though.
Humans will never find out unless some are kept as slaves or pets in this scenario ;(.

I confused Luc Montagnier with another Frenchman, Didier Raoult, sorry for that.
Feel free to link to Wikipedia or any other "reputable" source for some "debunking" propaganda.
Btw, "the Lancet is corrupt and so are all scientists publishing in it" are certainly not my words, in case you meant to imply that.
Although it had to withdraw a too obviously dubious study regarding chloroquine, if i am not mistaken.
Some reservations regarding the Lancet are recommendable.
I do not feel inclined to convince anybody of anything and have no interest in a boring exchange of hand-picked studies hence and forth either, and therefore even resist the temptation to share a list of one hundred (!) reasons NOT to wear a mask.
We both can keep our impressions that the other is both misguided and simple-minded ;).

In China all religious papers are being burned.
Let's imagine that scientific papers which undermine the objectives or the belief in the wisdom of your local or global government somewhere in the coming decade(-s), will be burned as well.
This contemplation could perhaps temper the rather common anger and arrogance of "scientists" toward people that do not buy their sh*t.
You may have heard the actual meaning of the following titles :
B.S. : BullSh*t
M.S. : More of Same
PhD : Piled High and Deep

"higher realities", really?
=> why not ?
What should be pretty clear, is that we do not know the ultimate reality, and it is easy to imagine that our dream-state is merely one out of a great many.
On the individual level billions of bubbles appear to exist in addition.

Generally (!) and frankly speaking, this is the unfortunate thing with scientists : these folks are actually a bunch of narrow-minded believers without much of a conscience, eager to ridicule anything beyond their "knowledge", and last but not least contributing to extremely extreme violence in various forms ( yes, it appears to "work" well here ).
Where is the "scientific" proof for all of that ?
Well, that is obviously for scientists to figure.
A lot of people rather rely upon common sense and natural instincts, apart from religious, "esoteric" or other non-materialistic insights.

lutes
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 09/04/2020

> BullSh*t

I protest. This is blatant self-censorship.

> PhD : Piled High and Deep

I protest. This is shameless plagiarism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piled_Higher_and_Deeper#Themes

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Well, this joke stems from way before.
I heard it first when this comic writer was still a todler.
It keeps being relevant though.
In fact, its significance only increased.
If something is clear, that is.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

This is how "scientists" are programmed to become dangerous hypocrites and promoters of the by far most disastrous belief-system.

That "most disastrous belief-system" works: it makes good predictions, it gave us things like computers, etc. Contrary to "natural instincts, religious, esoteric or other non-materialistic insights".

Theories, including your scientific ones, are great as long as common sense is not ignored or killed.

Doesn't quantum mechanics hurt your common sense? It is (one of) the most successful theory we have, with incredibly accurate predictions. Without it, we would not have our computers, for instance.

Turning the surface of this beautiful planet into a moon-landscape in no time, crushing its evolution, with unforeseeable and very longterm consequences, is sheer madness, not intelligence.

Today, one of the greatest enemy of our planet (actually of life on our planet) is maybe the president of the country I live in, Brazil. Jair Bolsonaro denies climate change, incentives deforestation (good for economic growth, according to him), propagates conspiracy theories on NGOs setting the fires, sacks the head of the scientific agencies that still report on observations (such as the Brazilian space agency), reauthorizes pesticides that were forbidden because of their scientifically-demonstrated impact on the environment and on health, etc.

One result, among others: 2020 set a new record on the number of km² of forest that burnt. It broke the 2019 record. Jair Bolsonaro took office in January 2019.

About Covid-19, he defends the conspiracy theory that China created the virus, repeats the disease is nothing more than a small flu (despite the 230,000+ deaths by Covid-19 in Brazil, until now), says that people afraid of Covid-19 are "sissies", stops vaccine tests for no good reason, affirms he will not take any vaccine, pretends the vaccine can turn people into alligators, pushes "early treatments" that never show their effectiveness (he bought a stock of Chloroquine that is enough for the forthcoming 18 years), fires two health ministers (both doctors) because they pointed out that no good scientific study shows the effectiveness of chloroquine against the Covid-19, fills instead the ministry with military men (including the minister), etc.

One result, among others: Brazil is second in number of deaths by Covid-19, right after the USA under Trump.

I confused Luc Montagnier with another Frenchman, Didier Raoult, sorry for that.

Didier Raoult refuses to use placebo-controlled trials and randomized trials, claims that the fewer patients in a study the more statistically significant, is accused of many frauds in his publications, believes epistemology is the history of science, keeps on making terrible predictions (in February 2020, he said the Covid-19 epidemic is over, more recently he claimed a second wave in France was "fantasy", little before the second wave, etc.), etc.

What do Jair Bolsonaro and Didier Raoult have in common? They do not care about the truth. That is why they do not want proper observations, following the best scientific methods. They only want to be right, no matter what.

Fortunately, scientists want the truth: many properly-designed clinical trials tested the (hydroxy)chloroquine. Result: no benefit against Covid-19. It is sad. If chloroquine was effective, it would have been excellent news. Everybody, me included, wants such good news. Some, me excluded, keep believing the excellent now-fake news despite the scientific evidences: they shut their eyes, put their fingers in their ears, do *not* wear masks, ... and make up conspiracy theories (scientists are corrupt, media are corrupt, the whole thing is demoniac plot for China/Aliens/Bill Gates/Jews/whatnot to enslave mankind, etc.) to cope with the pieces of reality that still enter their filter bubbles.

Because of them and, with greater responsibility, because of people like Jair Bolsonaro and Didier Raoult, many people who died could have been saved. And not only those living in the post-truth world.

Although it had to withdraw a too obviously dubious study regarding chloroquine, if i am not mistaken.

You are right. That is science properly working: a (probably honest) mistake was spot and the study was retracted. You will now find no scientist referring to it to affirm that chloroquine has no benefit against Covid-19 (the result). That is in sharp contrast with what conspiracy theorists do. Typically, they still refer to the fraudulent study Andrew Wakefield published on the MMR vaccine causing autism, although the article was retracted and the fraud led to Wakefield being struck off the medical register. In fact, for conspiracy theorists, those are arguments in favor of their claims. You did the same with Christian Perronne in a previous post. Conspiracies are convenient when you want to be right no matter what: retracting an article against and retracting an article in favor have the same effect for conspiracy theorists: it "proves" they are right.

I do not feel inclined to convince anybody of anything and have no interest in a boring exchange of hand-picked studies hence and forth either, and therefore even resist the temptation to share a list of one hundred (!) reasons NOT to wear a mask.

A meta-analysis, such as the one I linked to, is the highest level of evidence in medicine. It is much more trustworthy than any individual study because it analyzes all the studies with a good methodology. In the case of the Lancet paper I linked to, 44 studies with randomized controlled trials, on 25,697 patients. The results of every study are ignored to decide whether it enters the meta-analysis.

Again, that is in sharp contrast with what you admit you would do: hand-picking studies that show you are right, probably studies with worse methodologies, for instance without controlled groups, such as all those Didier Raoult published on chloroquine. Here is the difference between scientists who want the truth and people who want to to be right no matter what.

"higher realities", really?
=> why not ?

Very convincing argument. Thank you.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

If i were to respond to all points you make, without hand-picking only some, in a serious and thorough manner, it would take a pretty long time and many pages.
But as said, i do not feel inclined to do so.
Neither your scientific nor political viewpoints will pull me into a debate.

I do not claim at all that there are higher realities, nor try to convince anybody of anything, as said, while you seem to insinuate that there are none without proving that.

If you want to play fair, here is a great link :
https://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm
In the interests of our great society as a whole it seems best to detain scientists, especially those that promote vaccination which is a deadly sin, in camps and to get reprogrammed and force-fed with these wise counter-arguments.
Of course they may decline the offer for mental assistance but in that case should suffer severe restrictions as long as needed in order to protect vulnerable, innocent and cooperating citizens against irresponsible nonsense that a bull would never digest.

Just imagine for a moment you are an ant, or a worm, or a fish .
What could be your reality ?
A lower one, or at least a different one than your current one ?
Or imagine that you are, let's say, an eagle.
Would both your overview and vision of details be the same as your current one ?
Could you see things coming that lowlives do not ?
Or imagine that evolution on Earth continues undisturbed by dangerous madmen and a new, more intelligent and conscious species appears after 100 million years, surpassing humans in ways thought impossible hitherto, could these new creatures experience an altogether different and perhaps even higher reality ?
Now imagine you woke up one day and your mind was lost.
It can happen to presidents of powerful countries after all.
What would be your reality ?
Or you woke up and your mind was still there, but you did not really believe any of it anymore ?
Or you die one day, all limitations by the human body and mind are lifted, but you would still be there somehow.

You might believe of course, or could be under the hypnotic spell, that your current reality is the only one that is, ever was and always shall be, almost as if God created the universe to have smart human little bastards to explore it and naturally also exploit it for a short while, a remarkable idea that lives among christians as well.
Perhaps that does sound a bit boring but luckily there may be room for improvement soon nevertheless, for instance hard work is being done right now that may lead to progress that lets lost souls enjoy the wonderful benefits of a quantum computer implant !
It is even imaginable that one day humans will be GMO-ed into cattle that never needs to face the terror of natural daylight any longer, or into a proud lab-rat being experimented upon by superheroes from Saturn.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

In the interests of our great society as a whole it seems best to detain scientists, especially those that promote vaccination which is a deadly sin, in camps and to get reprogrammed and force-fed with these wise counter-arguments.

Written by somebody who pretends to be "open-minded" and "to object to censorship".

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Well, that was just joking around, not a political position, and not to be taken literally at all.
In the initial post i wrote :
“After all, just about everyone lives in its own bubble and about nobody else will fully understand what one tries to communicate anyway, although few people are aware of this funny "fact".”
Here we have a great example of it.
Hence everyone needs to be marked by the Beast and AI/7G-mind-controlled, that should be clear by now.

Not meant to use as a borrowed argument in some kind of a debate or battle, only to share the idea : Einstein stated once :
"Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world. All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it."
https://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page5.htm
Without experience, there will be no concepts and words.
Without concepts scientists will be at a loss, while life simply continues as long as there is experience.
A lot on this page is too pure logical as well, but that is another topic.

Btw, this objection to censorship should seen within the context of this forum.
This means i may delete my account at some point and with that possibly this thread as well, so keep that in mind.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

A lot on this page is too pure logical as well, but that is another topic.

It is the topic: observing reality using the best methodology we have to properly model it vs. ignoring reality and making up conspiracy theories to be right no matter what. It is the difference between scientists like me and people like you.

I point to the extremely-strong scientific evidences that face masks prevent the transmission of SARS-CoV-2. They are based on 44 clinical studies on 25,697 patients. Clinical studies that follow the best methodologies at our disposal to properly observe the effects of measures on public health. In the real world.

You refuse to consider those evidences from the real world. Instead, you answer with metaphysical blablabla, conspiracy theories (including "extra-terrestrial aliens trying to wipe out humanity now") and insults to those who go to the university. And you want to detain in camps scientists who empirically show that you are wrong.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

And you want to detain in camps scientists who empirically show that you are wrong.
=> Do not read with your nose, you're not a dog.
It is getting a bit tiresome, to be frank.

I actually looked thoroughly into quite a few studies regarding masks and considered them too simple-minded.
I do not feel inclined or at this point even see the point to explain why, thus "refuse" to do so.

Let's just conclude that we do not experience the same reality, and not get upset.

Geshmy
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/23/2015

Eric
>I ...resist the temptation to share a list of one hundred (!) reasons NOT to wear a mask.
Please do!

I spent some time reading about Pyotr Demianovich Ouspenskii as well as his mentor, George Gurdjieff. So now I understand somewhat your point of view. Flatlanders would be 'sleepwalkers or unawakened.' It sounds like you imply that when the world 'wakes up' it will commence to burn all works of science because it will have achieved a state of higher consciousness and a clearer vision of truth, or something along those lines.

Edit: On second read:
>In China all religious papers are being burned.
Let's imagine that scientific papers which undermine the objectives or the belief in the wisdom of your local or global government somewhere in the coming decade(-s), will be burned as well.
This contemplation could perhaps temper the rather common anger and arrogance of "scientists" toward people that do not buy their sh*t.
You may have heard the actual meaning of the following titles :
B.S. : BullSh*t
M.S. : More of Same
PhD : Piled High and Deep"

Paraphrased: Scientists would be less arrogant if they lived under fear that a government modeled after the mind of a Hitler or a Stalin would emerge soon.

Well, as you quoted me elsewhere "beliefs belong to the individual."

From: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pseudo-science
"pseudo-science
noun [ C usually singular ] a system of thought or a theory that is not formed in a scientific way."

Its clear that you can not win a scientific argument using pseudo-science. By this definition Ouspenskii's teachings could be called pseudo-science. I suppose all religions could be considered pseudo-science. I am sure that there are many like myself that embrace a spirituality and also the scientific process.

You often mix the two. A scientific argument cannot be won with pseudo-science. Psuedo-science could produce a testable hypotheses but the "scientific way" must take over form there.

Thanks MagicBanana for the explanation of what a meta-study is. And sorry to hear more about Brazil's Trump like president. I feared Trump wouldn't get out of the White House. We haven't gotten rid of him yet though.

The link you just supplied refers to a book that's about "debunking pseudoskeptical arguments of paranormal debunkers" But this thread seems more about you trying to debunk science. I'm just saying.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

Gurdjieff became his teacher after his historical masterpiece "Tertium Organum".
Ouspensky was given a paper and a pencil and asked to write down all he knew, given ample of time.
That paper remained blank and he was accepted.

I believe not Eric but eagle did resist to share that list and he still does, not being interested in an boring debate in which distorted, flawed and incomplete "fact-checking" information could keep piling up endlessly, obfuscating the large picture and the essence of what can be noticed without any "science" to back it up anyway.

Just for the record, my response to "beliefs belong to the individual" was :
"no, it is the other way around, or more precise, slaves do".
Freedom of the known ( which is actually a title of a book by J. Krishnamurti ) is a key to leave the matrix.

The link (...) seems more about you trying to debunk science.
=> Read it first, it contains a wealth of wise statements.
I just started doing so myself, and love it, it resonates well with my common sense.
https://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Introduction.htm#Scientism
( other pages are also worthwile visiting ), e.g. :

“Furthermore, organized skeptics like to tout “science” as a peer reviewed process of independent replication, and therefore totally reliable. In doing so, they treat it like a “democratic process” in which the majority of scientists decide what’s true by agreeing on it.”

“Thus, the key difference in this area between the pseudoskeptic and the truth seeker/freethinker, is that the former holds the science/medical establishment as a religion of unquestionable authority, whereas the latter does not, and recognizes it for what it is – an institution with vested interests, politics, power, money, control and censorship that is not above suppressing that which threatens it.”

Don’t be impressed by “metastudies” , which depend too much on lies, damned lies and statistics, focuses on quantity rather than quality, and are not to be regarded as the last words to be spoken.

Paraphrased: Scientists would be less arrogant if they lived under fear that a government modeled after the mind of a Hitler or a Stalin would emerge soon.
=> Or more covert about it.
But perhaps arrogant materialists are striving to shape a world modeled after such minds, or worse.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/9kq0xmL7NHXB/
Whether this friendly blond girl has brains i am, as a white male pig, not entitled to judge nowadays, but guts she absolutely has !

To stress this one more time, i have no political objectives of any kind and do not suggest that anybody should believe or do anything, or stop to believe or to do whatsoever.
I am not against any scientist, politician or you name it, nor hate, try to upset or lock-up any individual or group.
I do consider what others do or think as non of my business.
This might be stupid but in that case i am too stupid to see that, so do not worry about it.
Sorry for this disclaimer, it does not really belong in a troll lounge.

Geshmy
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 04/23/2015

>I believe not Eric but eagle
I stand corrected and apologies to eric23.

>Just for the record, my response to "beliefs belong to the individual" was :
"no, it is the other way around, or more precise, slaves do".

I was talking about rights, in other words you have a right to believe what you want, no one has the right to try to force you to believe something you do not want to believe.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

All right, we still have that right, officially.

Regarding implicating an "awakened" world burning scientific papers, the answer is : no.
Sheeple involve towards slavery, people evolve towards freedom.
Frankly, i do not see the human "world" as such to wake up.
But who knows what will happen.

I made valuable observations while participating in a troll lounge and thank all others for their input and the Trisquel community for providing the space.

The most prominent "lesson" has been that without immediate real world feedback and attunement an astounding level of confusion can easily occur, especially certain types of playful jokes and non-literal statements with opposite, multiple or complex meanings should not be assumed to be that graspable.

eagle
Hors ligne
A rejoint: 11/29/2020

There is at least one dumb mistake that ought to be corrected :
Please read "Freedom From the Known", instead of "OF" it.
Slaves belong to beliefs, they "know", and as a result may sometimes even act strange like hypnotized zombies or murderous dolls, so beware, friends.

david

I am a member!

I am a translator!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 08/02/2008

Thanks for being civil about this issue.

We don't usually remove threads but I personally hid that one because of several reasons including the following:

* Even if this forum fosters the discussion of topics outside of free-software and in some cases that may imply discussing controversial issues, this is still the site for a community formed around free software. There must be far better places to discuss totally unrelated themes such as those presented in that forum thread.
* While many off-topic discussions can have little impact in people's lives besides a change in mood or opening up to new opinions, the topics covered in that forum thread go way beyond that and could have a clear impact on people's health. Again, there are way, way better places to discuss health-related ideas, opinions and advice.
* Forum threads such as those tend to gather a lot of participation and bring out very emotional responses, a condition which added to their usual extent and the amount of links included makes them really complicated to moderate. They also take a lot of time from community members which at least to some extent may detract from the time and will they may have to participate on other more useful, more on-topic conversations.
* Besides that, these long, complicated to follow and controversial topics may generate so much activity at a given time that they can impact the overall tone and feel that this community provides, particularly to newcomers and members of some age groups. We want this site to still be mainly a place to discuss Trisquel GNU/Linux, free software and closely related topics.
* Finally, I received several concerned reports both from long-time and new users related to some of the points above.

I understand that our community is characterized by a very healthy amount of free-thinking and many of our members are really open to have their ideas challenged and to discuss them extensively, but please try to not lose the focus of what this movement and this community is about.

Consider also that helping humanity understand the long-lasting and life-changing benefits of using and trusting free software (and rejecting non-free software) is enough of a high and shared goal for this community towards which to pour all that dedication.

Removing the thread without further explanation was not the best choice but it was the best one I had at that moment. I should have provided an explanation earlier and I'll try to do so if this kind of action is necessary again in the future. I hope it won't.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Hors ligne
A rejoint: 07/24/2010

Thank you for your difficult work.