Alternative to Jami Messenger

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amtrakuk
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Iscritto: 11/25/2019

Im starting to lose my buddies on Jami Messenger purely down to the extreme battery usage of Jami on iOS. My brother has sent me a screen shot shoing Jami is typically using 67% of the battery in his iPhone 10 which he says is simpley unacceptable.

Yes, the phone has been checked for updates, the latest Jami client has been installed. Hes even gone as far as factory resetting the phone. Nothing fixes the battery vampire known as Jami.

So it seems Jami is getting close to getting scrapped in our group ask it just has far to many issues for daily use. Can someone recommend a GNU complient messenger thats available on all popular OS both mobile and desktop?

Thanks

panties
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Iscritto: 02/02/2021

I'm surrprised that Jami was runring on your iPhone. I secretly installed Jami on a friend's Android phone and made a call from my iPone, but Jami never even found his account.
How about Signal? I haven't used it, but at least it seems to work.

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

> Can someone recommend a GNU complient messenger thats available on all popular OS both mobile and desktop?

I doubt it. This is quite a recurrent topic in this forum, so we would not have missed it.

There is only one I can think about, but I cannot be sure it meets your criteria. What is a "GNU complient messenger" for iOS or Android supposed to look like exactly?

Someone posted this: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/jami-vs-wire-vs-other-programs#comment-157600, and they seem quite knowledgeable about messengers.

That said, I'd rather scrap a proprietary mobile OS than scrap Jami because said proprietary OS is making it look like a vampire. Who's the sucker, really? "But remember: as a user of a non-free program, you're a victim. Not a culprit" (Richard Stallman, https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/free-software-awards, around 37:00).

Also: "Sometimes, defending freedom requires a sacrifice. Not watching a certain movie is not a big sacrifice. Anyone can do that. The movie is probably crap anyway. I say that simply because most Hollywood movies are crap. There are exceptions, but they are so rare" (id., around 49:00).

Nobody caring about freedom or privacy would seriously recommend Signal:

https://www.wired.com/story/signal-foundation-whatsapp-brian-acton
https://freedombone.net/faq.html#org96b7e85

koszkonutek
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Iscritto: 03/19/2020

> What is a "GNU complient messenger" for iOS or Android supposed to look like exactly?

Lanun is right about asking this - it is difficult to advise without knowing the details. You used word "messenger". Does that mean you don't care about videocnoferencing functionality? In such case the number of options grows.

One "messenger" (actually protocol) that comes to mind is Matrix[1]. Its implementations are free software and federated (as opposed to peer-to-peer). There are no video conversations in it AFAIK but you can have audio talks. It has clients for Android and iOS, as well as web-based, so it can be accessed even by those useds imprisoned by crApple and other tyrant device vendors. Also, there seem to be Matrix packages in Debian repo, so you shouldn't need any third-party package manager to install it. Bad sides? Some Matrix instances might use reCaptcha. You should be careful to register on one that doesn't.

Of course, there can be many more messengers with similar functionality. I just described the one that I heard most about and that seems to be quite popular.

It just came to my mind that you might have meant you want to chat with Jami users from other program than Jami. If that's your goal, then I don't think there are tools for it.

[1] https://matrix.org/

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

Look what I just found. Two people from Ring/Jami landed at Libre Planet 2016, and a stealth Trisquel agent managed to record their secret talk:

https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/take-control-of-your-communication-with-ring

That talk happened five years ago, and Ring has now become Jami, but they still seem to really want to do many things, in addition to their many Jami clients. I think the work they are currently doing on OpenDHT and Ethereum is going to be crucial for a whole range of applications. Jami itself might be second priority only. That would explain many things. That's only a guess, though. My next guess would be that Jami is in turn basing too much of its operations, and hence too much of its development work, on the DHT, to become a polished and stable app any time soon. But again, that's only a guess. There is also a passing mention of the IoT...about remotely controlling a robot in a mine in Northern Canada...They might also simply be hampering the whole thing in a quest for technological feat. Anyway, that video and the OP just sent me back to seriously considering the current options again.

Jitsi Meet used to be a good option if you wanted occasional audio/video calls plus chat, I just noticed that they now have mobile clients, which might sound like good news for you. However, I also noticed that Jitsi® is now a registered trademark of a certain 8x8, Inc., which talks about "Introducing Experience Communications as a Service (XCaaS)" on its front page. Sounds gloomy, to say the least.

Another option you might possibly be tempted by is Telegram, their GNU/Linux client is GPL'd (if this is what you meant by "GNU compliance") but does not offer E2EE, and the usual reservations about trusting a centralized network (and linking account to mobile number) also apply here. Same for Wire. So I would certainly give a chance to Matrix before going to any of these two, at least it was designed for federation.

The recent developments on the Jitsi side are not overly positive, although the Jitsi Meet instances currently available might be able to use a forked version if the new parent company starts moving astray. My experience to date with Jitsi Meet has been great on any of the instances I have chosen from either https://jitsi.github.io/handbook/docs/community/community-instances or https://framatalk.org/accueil/en/info.

All in all, I'd stick to my previous recommendation:

1. ditch the proprietary mobile OS and keep Jami, or even easier, ditch the evil mobile devices. Some settings might keep the battery leak less of a problem, but then I'd bet that connectivity would decrease proportionally. Also, I understand that you might not be ready yet to ditch communication with your friends or family altogether because of a messaging app. Hence:

2. Jitsi Meet, using Abrowser on GNU/Linux and their mobile clients on their respective platforms. Or possibly:

3. Matrix, if it is not too much of a hurdle for them to create an account, etc. on a given matrix server and configure a client accordingly. Matrix has also its problems, but I have no idea whether stability/availability/latency improved much recently. These things can change really fast after long time of slow progress. It is also still quite centralized, although again it is built to be federated. If you are going for Matrix, you might want to read this thread first: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/matrix-client. Two GNU/Linux clients are recommended here: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/matrix-client#comment-154981.

4. protometachattoo, running on my new universal p2p protocol. It is still too much of a work in progress for any of its components to be disclosed yet, even to myself, but I have good hope it will eventually comply with Drew DeVaut's check list for the next chat app: https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/07/The-next-chat-app.html. When the next installment of the cosmos comes to shape.

Abhiseck Paira
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Iscritto: 05/16/2021

> So it seems Jami is getting close to getting scrapped in our group ask
> it just has far to many issues for daily use. Can someone recommend
> a GNU compliant messenger that's available on all popular OS both
> mobile and desktop?

The instant messenger market is very bad. Personally I am very excited
about Jami but I don't think it's there yet that it can be recommended
to my non-tech savvy friends.

I used to push Signal a lot, and I regret the time I used to it. It's a
*vendor lock-in* and Signal devs don't care about software freedom. So
I'd recommend to avoid it.

I think matrix and XMPP are steps in right direction. But in my case I
can't convince my peers to use them yet.

So I settled for Telegram, here's my reasons:

1) Very user friendly and full of features, that normal people may
like. For people who are used to proprietary messengers with lot of
features, they'll find that Telegram is usable.

2) Even though it depends on a central server, it's possible to bridge
it with Matrix (unlike Signal).

3) Many people argue that Telegram's server side source code is
proprietary, but that doesn't matter to *you* as the user, because you
are not running it on *your computer*. Telegram is running the server
side code on their computer and they have all the freedoms because they
are the one who wrote it.

4) The client is free software and the QT based client is natively
available in most of the GNU/Linux distros, Even the GNU FSDG compliant
distros like Parabola and Guix. Contrary to this, Signal has a electron
based client that FSDG compliant distros can't have them on their
repo. Also the mobile client is available on F-droid. And it's regularly
updated.

5) Mobile clients support E2EE (i.e., secrete chats).

6) I've heard that people even don't need to install the official
version and there's plugin available that can work with Pidgin (I am
surely misspelling the name) messenger.

Personally I have seen that in action with the Emacs version of Telegram
called telega.el package (and it also supports e2e encryption).

--
Abhisek Paira
E34E 825B 979E EB9F 8505 F80E E93D 353B 7740 0709
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

> 5) Mobile clients support E2EE (i.e., secrete chats).

NB: This does not help if one is using the GNU/Linux desktop client, which does not support it. Having to go mobile to get E2EE is a strange idea.

Abhiseck Paira
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Iscritto: 05/16/2021

> NB: This does not help if one is using the GNU/Linux desktop client,
> which does not support it.

It's partially true. Emacs' Telega.el package, which is built on top of
"Telegram Database Library (TDlib)"[1] already supports E2EE encryption
in GNU/Linux. So this library must support E2EE and other clients which
is built on top of it should too. Why other mainstream clients like
"Telegram Desktop" hasn't implemented yet I don't know.

[1] https://github.com/tdlib/td

--
Abhisek Paira
E34E 825B 979E EB9F 8505 F80E E93D 353B 7740 0709
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

> It's partially true.

I partially disagree with that statement. The Telegram "GNU/Linux desktop client" does NOT, to this date, support E2EE, as you have now confirmed. This is no partial truth, whatever name that particular client may be called.

> Emacs' Telega.el package, which is built on top of "Telegram Database Library (TDlib)"[1] already supports E2EE encryption in GNU/Linux. So this library must support E2EE and other clients which is built on top of it should too.

That's good news - for Emacs users, at least. I think you will agree that "Telegram Desktop client" and "Telega.el Emacs extension" are not exactly equivalent. Most Telegram users who installed "Telegram Desktop" probably never used Emacs, and probably never will. They will admittedly never know what they are missing, but that's partially off-topic here.

> Why other mainstream clients like "Telegram Desktop" hasn't implemented yet

I think that's the real question. I don't know about "other mainstream clients", but the fact that "Telegram Desktop" is not supporting E2EE does not show a rock solid dedication to users' privacy, to say the least, by the very people whom said users must trust because they are running the one unique Telegram server. If their own desktop client does not do E2EE, I think we should at least know why.

Full disclosure: I am using Telegram with a few selected subversive people, and I mostly agree with the other points you mentioned.

Abhiseck Paira
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Iscritto: 05/16/2021

> I think that's the real question. I don't know about "other mainstream
> clients", but the fact that "Telegram Desktop" is not supporting E2EE
> does not show a rock solid dedication to users' privacy, to say the
> least, by the very people whom said users must trust because they are
> running the one unique Telegram server. If their own desktop client
> does not do E2EE, I think we should at least know why.

I guess I agree with you all the points you made above. We must demand
why the "Telegram Desktop" client hasn't implemented E2EE yet.

As I said in my first post, the better solutions at this moment would be
Matrix and XMPP. I consider Telegram to be far from perfect middle
ground to communicate with people around me. If it weren't for Telegram
they would still be using proprietary software like WhatsApp which many
of my peers still use and with whom I still can't communicate.

And I still think that it's much better to use Telegram than using any
other proprietary ones and Signal which is actually hostile to user
freedom.

--
Abhisek Paira
E34E 825B 979E EB9F 8505 F80E E93D 353B 7740 0709
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."

koszkonutek
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Iscritto: 03/19/2020

> [...] WhatsApp which many of my peers still use and with whom I still can't communicate.

Actually, there is one single tool that is not strictly a messenger but which allows you to exchange text messages with practically everyone, because everybody has it. This discussion got far enough that it is probably also worth mentioning. Email.

When I need to communicate with people who normally use facebook/messenger, I just say I have no fb and I give them my email address. It works and it is a good temporary solution to the problem, or even a good permanent one depending on your preferences.

Also, my VOIP provider additionally provides a way to send SMS messages from web interface (js not required) which I use sometimes. This is not the cheapest option but works and allows me to reach those enslaved by proprietary sw, and hence, is worth recommending

Abhiseck Paira
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Iscritto: 05/16/2021

> Actually, there is one single tool that is not strictly a messenger
> but which allows you to exchange text messages with practically
> everyone, because everybody has it. This discussion got far enough
> that it is probably also worth mentioning. Email.

I love communicating with Email. It's decentralized and everyone can
communicate with each other (and I can use Emacs to write my message
:D).

I asked people who do not want to leave WhatsApp for any other messenger
to contact me via Email, but they are not interested. They don't even
open their email messages on their own and you have to call them to
remind them to open it (and I do it on some emergency situation.)

Another problem is they are all using Gmail, and they don't know how to
use PGP so I can't send anything sensitive to them. Google is probably
reading the mails to monetize it.

> Also, my VOIP provider additionally provides a way to send SMS
> messages from web interface (js not required) which I use
> sometimes.

Sometimes I use an Android device so I can send a SMS sometimes (Again I
do in those emergency situations). But I don't think my VOIP provider
supports sending SMS messages over the web (even if it did it would
require me to run some proprietary JS).

--
Abhisek Paira
E34E 825B 979E EB9F 8505 F80E E93D 353B 7740 0709
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."

koszkonutek
Offline
Iscritto: 03/19/2020

> I asked people who do not want to leave WhatsApp for any other messenger
> to contact me via Email, but they are not interested. They don't even
> open their email messages on their own and you have to call them to
> remind them to open it (and I do it on some emergency situation.)

That says something about how important you and your messages are to them (not at all)

> Another problem is they are all using Gmail, and they don't know how to
> use PGP so I can't send anything sensitive to them. Google is probably
> reading the mails to monetize it.

I sometimes think about configuring my email to automatically respond to all non-encrypted email with something like "message returned to the sender due to lack of encryption; please encrypt your message and send it again"

However, simply adding gpg key info to the signature seems to also motivate some people to try pgp. Depends on person, though.

> I don't think my VOIP provider
> supports sending SMS messages over the web (even if it did it would
> require me to run some proprietary JS).

Mine is not perfect either because I can only receive SMS messages in voice form. That's why some time ago I checked over 20 VOIP providers in my country (by asking via email) to find one that would allow both sending and receiving SMS as text and I am in the process of purchasing a phone number from a provider who seems to have what I need. I was told I can configure the service to have SMS routed to email. I recommend you perform the same kind of search if you have enough time. Note that provider who offers GSM phone numbers under VOIP is most likely to also have the SMS functionality. As to JS, you never know until you try and check. Also, some providers may actually agree to let you bypass their web panel and have everything set up via email :)

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

In fact, email has already been mentioned, in the form of Delta Chat: https://delta.chat.

From https://trisquel.info/en/forum/jami-vs-wire-vs-other-programs#comment-157600.

Of course, it inherits the same limitations as emails concerning encryption.

amtrakuk
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Iscritto: 11/25/2019

I did try Delta Chat, wasn't that happy about providing my account details but luckily had an old hotmail account I rarely use. It seems each message appeared in my inbox and sent mail which would soon clutter things up, I'm sure their anti-relay filter kicked in as IIRC it stopped working

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

We seem to have a similar view about Telegram.

> I still think that it's much better to use Telegram than using any other proprietary ones and Signal which is actually hostile to user freedom.

No one suggested different here. I did not, at least.

We should keep in mind the OP's question, which is about an alternative to Jami, not about an alternative to a proprietary app or Signal. As we already mentioned, there are other options which rank higher than Telegram on the decentralization and privacy scales, which are also GPL'd, and which would be worth trying. So I'd rather recommend them first, and I would only recommend lower ranking options (aka "far from perfect middle ground") like Telegram with at least a word of caution. I'd rather be cautious now, than not be cautious now and regret it later, as in your experience with Signal.

koszkonutek
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Iscritto: 03/19/2020

> My brother has sent me a screen shot shoing Jami is typically using 67% of the battery in his iPhone 10 which he says is simpley unacceptable.

I just realized the reason. Jami by default makes connections to its p2p network in the background. This way each user helps sustain the network. Unfortunately, these background connections cause high power drain, which is especially easy to notice on mobile devices. Perhaps it is possible to configure the amount of traffic Jami generates in the background? However, as lanun noticed, it might also affect the connectiviy.

> My next guess would be that Jami is in turn basing too much of its operations, and hence too much of its development work, on the DHT, to become a polished and stable app any time soon.

It would be nice if federation was an option here. So that a geek could run a Jami node on a personal server and have all the friends connect through that node instead of participating directly in p2p. And I think that's not impossible to program. But probably not worth doing anyway, as there are more daring issues freesw movement has to solve

lanun
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Iscritto: 04/01/2021

> It would be nice if federation was an option here. So that a geek could run a Jami node on a personal server and have all the friends connect through that node instead of participating directly in p2p. And I think that's not impossible to program. But probably not worth doing anyway, as there are more daring issues freesw movement has to solve

Agreed. It feels like Jami will eventually take off as a messenger app when/if exactly that happens. In theory, any user can already run the necessary servers which are currently all hosted by SavoirFaireLinux, but as you say, being able to bypass the DHT might greatly improve both usability and footprint. Solving the specific mobile client hurdles or improving the user experience for the GNU/Linux client would probably each require a dedicated team of devs already, though. The relatively small SFL team currently working on Jami (they talk about a dozen people, most probably not full time and possibly even as a side task) is in fact working on what was accurately described as "the whole infrastructure" in the LP 2016 video, which I think explains the relatively slow progress on the client/UI side. No wonder they are recruiting: https://jobs.savoirfairelinux.com/#C-developer.

In fact, a combination of federation and full p2p might be the forgotten answer to that nagging federated vs. p2p debate.

amtrakuk
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Iscritto: 11/25/2019

If its a case of nodes then they ought to up the nodes on the internet to "assist" until things get going scaling back as necessary.

Messaging was alright on jami but anything else was more fail than succeed. Users who came from whatsapp where everything just worked and as typical had little or no interest in messaging security, so unless it works as well and reliably as whatsapp they would drop it like a stone - which is what basically happened.

PublicLewdness
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Iscritto: 03/15/2020

Have you considered XMPP or Matrix ? There are iOS clients for both on the Apple app store.

amtrakuk
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Iscritto: 11/25/2019

Ive settled for XMPP running OMEMO however I've had to make some compromises, there seems to be a limit on the file size that can be transferred - OK for pics. Ive never really been one for voip calls but seems not all clients support VOIP.

Where XMPP seem to shine is synchronizing usage over many clients, you can almost pickup a conversation on a different client.

The down side is its not that user friendly, let me explain, not all clients on all platforms support the same features, Dino on Linux does not support VOIP, Monocles on android supports VOIP.

Moreover apps need a bit of setting up as well as account creation on an XMPP server. Bread and butter for a seasoned user but not always noob friendly.

That said, once setup and OMEMO enabled its easy to use.

koszkonutek
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Iscritto: 03/19/2020

Seems there's often (always?) some trade-off between user-friendliness and software freedom.

Matrix is quite user friendly and seems to work well enough but also has reCaptcha support and many of its clients, although free, are not FSDG-complaint (e.g. because they rely on npm to be installed).

And XMPP might perform better in terms of software freedom, but as you said, it might be painful to noobs

Tirifto
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Iscritto: 02/19/2015

SFLinux has released a new version of Jami (codename ‘Maloya’) earlier this month. In their announcement, they claim to have improved battery consumption on iOS. Could you check if the improvements work for any of your buddies?