The Angry Red Button of Doom and Chronic Catastrophic Crashes

Also, install the wicd-gtk package, you have to keep connected to the
Internet, don't you? :D

I also tend to think that 1GB of RAM may be too little for your usage (well, for the Web where pages became far heavier in the past years). That said, a larger swap is no solution: the system becomes unbearably slow as soon as you *start* using the swap. The real solution if you really run short of RAM (what can be easily verified from the "System monitor" in the "System settings") is to add RAM. Your motherboard would hopefully accept more RAM and buying one additional GB is very cheap.

If problems occur even when the RAM is not full, then it may be a hardware problem. Like lembas, I would advise you to run memtest86+.

>> There is one sure-fire way to fix the problem- don't use graphical package management. However, that's probably not the answer you were looking for, so no. <<

Not really :p Especially since I wasn't using graphical package management when the issue occurred. As I said in OP, I was using 'sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade' when the angry red button popped up on my taskbar. I'm going to assume this is a GNOME problem.

>> But no, I don't think new package versions will sort this out. Your system looks beyond repair. <<

I suspected as much, but thanks for the confirmation. The situation reminds me of when I was still using Ubuntu, and I would hope against hope that every new version would fix the performance problems with my system. Usually they did fix some issues, but made the overall performance worse.

>> Probably, yes. The Trisquel DE (based on the monstrously bloated GNOME) uses at least 500 MB of RAM even when nothing's running- that's half your RAM gone. Many of the problems you describe are symptoms of the system constantly
swapping. <<

This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you so much. So my choices are basically:
* buy a new computer
OR
* try a more lightweight desktop

I've used LXDE before and found it ok, and same with Enlightenment, although the distros I tried that bundled Enlightenment by default (eg Bodhi) were bleeding edge (and non-free). What do folks think about Mate or Cinammon? Anything else I should consider?

Moxalt suggests XFCE, which I haven't tried for years, but I remember finding it clunky and limited. Having said that, many of my criticisms (eg awkward controls for customization) apply equally to GNOME on Trisquel.

>> There are probably a whole bunch of cryptically broken things under the hood in your system, and it would take a *lot* of time for you to diagnose them all, report them to us, and then fix them, so I would just recommend a re-install. <<

This was a fresh install a few weeks ago, which I did in the hopes it would fix the problem. It hasn't so I think I need to move on to one of the options above.

>> Rebooting really shouldn't be necessary unless any system-critical packages (such as a new linux, a new grub, or something like that). Otherwise, updated packages should Just Work. <<

In theory sure. On a headless system, certainly. But GUI systems are complex enough to create race condition bugs, and I've read it's a good idea to at least logout and login if not reboot, after any update. Just ruling out possible causes.

>> You want more than a decent-sized swap partition- you want a *hefty* swap partition. When you re-install, set it to at least double or quadruple your RAM, if you have the disk space to spare. <<

I think I used double on this install you said swapping is part of the problem, and MagicBanana confirms this, so it probably didn't help :(

>> Why use Trisquel 6? <<

Because that's what I was using since I left Ubuntu, and in theory it should be supported for a few more years yet.

>> It could run out, you never know.

With a 16GB partition? I've always used a separate file partition on this system (I used to use the Windows partition until I got rid of that) so that I can access the files from multiple installs. The only time I've ever run out of space on an OS partition was on my other laptop, because of the log cancer problem.

>> Put everything on one partition and you wont have to deal with resizing partitions when space runs out. <<

Sure, but you also have to copy the entire /home contents to another drive if you want to reinstall or try a different distro. No thanks.

>>> * only install extra apps if I really need to use them (eg Mumble) <<<<

>> This is just general good practice. <<

Sure, but on a reliable system, I often install new applications just to try them out, install games etc. I know that can introduce race condition bugs, so my point was that I haven't done that on this install. Again, just ruling things out.


The full procedure looks like this:
$ sudo apt-get update
$ sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
$ sudo apt-get autoremove
$ sudo apt-get clean


Would it be possible to make a script out of these ?
like "do this command, allow sudo. Confirm "Y" (yes). When done, do the same with the following..." etc.

It's easier and faster to just launch a script.

An automation option could be fine (like every day at whatever o'clock).

So, do you think it's possible ?

On 29/10 07:58, moxalt wrote:
> > I apologise if any part of this posting comes across as grumpy or
> > ungrateful. I know most everyone involved in developing software for
> > GNU/Linux is doing their best, and that most of them are unpaid. I appreciate
> > what your work, and your ethical commitment, I really do. But I am beyond
> > frustration here. Where to start?
>
> It's okay- your post is neither grumpy nor ungrateful. You have a seriously
> f*cked up system.
[snip]
> Probably, yes. The Trisquel DE (based on the monstrously bloated GNOME) uses at
> least 500 MB of RAM even when nothing's running- that's half your RAM gone.
> Many of the problems you describe are symptoms of the system constantly
> swapping. There are probably a whole bunch of cryptically broken things under
> the hood in your system, and it would take a *lot* of time for you to diagnose
> them all, report them to us, and then fix them, so I would just recommend a
> re-install. Install using the Trisquel netinstall CD (don't install a desktop!),
> then install xfce4 and xfce4-goodies to install everyone's favourite GTK-based
> lightweight desktop environment. Xfce usually uses just under 200 MB RAM when
> ticking over, giving you significantly more to play with. Also, it's a lot
> snappier when it comes to launching programs and doing things. Give it a go.
[snip]
Wouldn't using Trisquel Mini be a simpler answer to this? From what I
remember LXDE is more lightweight then XFCE.

Triquel Mini also looks pretty darn good.
--
In regular expressions you must backslash { (count)

Thanks for the suggestion Lembas, but I think I will try using a more lightweight desktop, and any other software/ configuration suggestions anyone has. If that doesn't work, and the hardware is just borked, then it's beyond being worth reconditioning, and it's time to recycle it. I can get a USB WiFi card for the $50 Lifebook I just bought so I can use that as a replacement at home (now that we've found the cause of the log cancer), and put up with the second-hand HP Slate tablet I bought last year for when I'm travelling.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to try out a few different lightweight desktops, until I find one I like.

>> Also, you also use Mumble! That's great! I've been using Mumble for almost two years. :D <<

Cool. I only just started, as the Mumble client only started receiving sound through my built-in mic when I upgraded to Belenos. Would you (and others) be keen for a Trisquel chat session on Mumble sometime?

Thanks MeNoMore. As with your advice about logrotate, I really appreciate your probing questions and detailed descriptions. I'm sorry if my questions in the log cancer thread came across as sarcastic, they were honestly just clarifying questions, although I admit that comment was a bit terse compared to my usuall novellas ;)

I just want to clarify again that the PC we're discussing here is an old Acer "netbook" laptop. If you click on my username, you can see the full model info, including lspci output.

>> Could I ask if you are duel booting perhaps? <<

Not any more. As I said in my reply to Moxalt, I recently did a fresh install of Belenos, and when I did that I blew away the NTFS partitions and all my experimental dual-boot partitions, leaving only a 4GB partition at the end of the drive, which I used for swap. I created two new 16GB OS partitions at the start of the drive, and installed Belenos to the first one. The second one is still empty. The rest of the drive is a /home partition. All three partitions are Ext4.

>> Or running a VirtualBox? <<

I've had a go running VirtualBox in the past, but never got it to work. I haven't even installed it in this install.

>> Kernel failure? <<

Not as far as I can tell. How could I test this? Thinking about what Moxalt said about swapping, I don't think the kernel is actually crashing at all.

>> Did you use the "USB stick and a Live Usb maker" to install the system? <<

Yes. The system has no optical disk drive so I had no choice but to use USB, and I used the USB maker in Trisquel System Settings to make the installation media.

>> Perhaps this a hardware fault in your CPU? Maybe first try to disable cache on the cpu from the bios. <<

Again, is there are way to test this? What can I expect to happen if I go into BIOS and disable cache?

>> Are you overclocking your computer? <<

No. Is that wise with a laptop? Overheating is a serious enough problem over a few hours of work when things are running normally.

>> I'd also suggest checking that the motherboard and PSU are up to spec? <<

Can you clarify what you mean by "up to spec"?

>> If none of this help, perhaps think of formatting and reinstalling. <<

Been there, done that, didn't help.

>> Bad memory is a common cause of problems. <<

OK, I will run a memtest overnight.

>> bad power-supplies can also cause random freezes and crashes. <<

How can I test that?

>> low-quality motherboard. either due to shoddy manufacturing or due to bad/dodgy parts (e.g. a sub-standard or cheap version of a NIC that claims to be a particular brand/model but isn't - the manufacturer's Windows driver may compensate for its inadequacies but the linux driver believes it is an XYZ device because that's what it claims to be)
ditto for expansion cards <<

What can I say? This laptop is 5 years old. There were definitely times in the past when it ran much more reliably than it does now. It could be that I'm using overly bloated software. It could be that the hardware is wearing out. What I'm asking for here, I guess, is suggestions on what tests I can use to rule possible causes out, so I can diagnose the exact problem(s) by a process of elimination.

>> Are there any common patterns to the crashes? <<

Pretty much always happens when I'm browsing the web. I currently use ABrowser, but before reinstalling the same thing would happen with IceCat.

>> or after you've visited certain websites (e.g. badly written javascript code can leak memory) <<

I suspected this might be the problem, which is why I installed NoScript. Didn't help.

>> or at a certain times of day (when?)
or when other equipment is being operated nearby (e.g. a fridge motor turning on - a good UPS can protect against transient voltage fluctuations). <<

Hmm. I do live in an old house, with old wiring, in an old neighbourhood, with old wiring. Brown-outs could be an issue. My flatmates don't have any problems with their computers though.

>> You should not give up D: <<

I'm certainly not giving up on GNU/Linux, and I'll try everything the friendly, helpful folks in the Trisquel community can suggest before I give up Trisquel. I have considered trying something like Parabola though. If I understand the Arch family correctly, this essentially allows me to build up a custom distro specifically for my hardware and my needs?

>> I am sure this is information overload <<

Yeah, kind of :P But all the same, I did ask a lot of questions, and I appreciate your effort to be thorough. As it turns out, switching from GNOME to E17 (Enlightenment) seems to have solved the lag/ freeze problem, along with a number of others (eg the weird ownCloud error message on login). For the first time in as long as I can remember, I was able to shut down my system normally after an all-day session. I will run a memtest overnight just out of curiosity though.

There are a couple of weird little issues in E17:
* Whether the sound controls are set to 'lock sliders' or not, only one volume slider goes up and down, and has no effort on the actual volume.
* Sometimes some of the taskbar gadgets seem to freeze up, eg the clock won't open up to display the calendar when left-clicked.

It's going to take me a while to get used to how everything works, but I really like the way I can easily drag windows between desktops (either from the window itself or from the page), and slide between desktops by holding the mouse against the side of the screen etc. I also really like the fact that when I initiate the launch of an application on one desktop, it opens there no matter what. In GNOME, it just opens in whatever desktop I happen to be on at the time.