blasphemous question here
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Well, nonfree software isn't a solution. If nonfree software is required, the solution is to remove that requirement, not to install the nonfree software.
If you were somehow faced with either using nonfree software or something worse, and you can't get around it somehow, that's just not realistically solvable. A problem not being realistically solvable does not mean that you should consider your best possibility (which we're assuming is using nonfree software) to be a "solution".
Actually, if it's a job that's forcing you to use nonfree software, getting a new job that doesn't do that would be a solution as well, but that's not a trivial thing to do.
El 19/05/13 05:56, name at domain escribió:
> Why not taking a new formulation like:
> "Non free software is never a solution this forum will recommend".
> That's just ok.
> I could accept that. With this, you won't make this very questionable
> statement from above.
So: do not suggest it is in this forum. You are implicitly doing it.
Please stop.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
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Please specify how I do anything like supporting non-free Software implicitly, because I can't see it.
I criticised the quoted sentence of the forum guidelines; what's wrong about that?
Bear in mind that almost everyone in this forum uses proprietary software, because of the bios.
So, such a sentence in the guidelines seems not convincing to me.
El 19/05/13 10:32, name at domain escribió:
> Please specify how I do anything like supporting non-free Software
> implicitly, because I can't see it.
I was talking about the people that offer their services to help install
non-free software.
> I criticised the quoted sentence of the forum guidelines; what's wrong
> about that?
> Bear in mind that almost everyone in this forum uses proprietary
> software, because of the bios.
> So, such a sentence in the guidelines seems not convincing to me.
Although I don't agree with you. I think it is a valid statement. No one
uses free software because the hardware is the ultimate measure of
freedom. But that is not a reason to back up to Adobe Flash. We should
go forward.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
El 19/05/13 10:23, Quiliro Ordóñez escribió:
> El 19/05/13 05:56, name at domain escribió:
>> Why not taking a new formulation like:
>> "Non free software is never a solution this forum will recommend".
>> That's just ok.
>> I could accept that. With this, you won't make this very questionable
>> statement from above.
> So: do not suggest it is in this forum. You are implicitly doing it.
> Please stop.
>
By the way, becomming available to give support for nonfree software by
personal email is against the list guidelines. Please do not do it.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
"give support for nonfree software by
personal email is against the list guidelines. "
I can't understand just one thing. Why are we need to mimic gNewSense's Guideline?
El 19/05/13 11:06, name at domain escribió:
> "give support for nonfree software by
> personal email is against the list guidelines. "
>
> I can't understand just one thing. Why are we need to mimic
> gNewSense's Guideline?
No. It is a matter of not recommending non-free software or recommending
where to go for it.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
El 19/05/13 05:56, name at domain escribió:
> People who can't avoid proprietary software are one of this groups.
They cannot avoid it because they support it in the first place. It's a
chicken and egg problem. If you can't do it without supporting your
oppressor, don't do it. You would be supporting your oppressor!
> There are thousands of scenarios (some might be very theoretical, but
> they can happen) in which proprietary software IS a solution; consider
> the gun on your head
OK. That is a good reason. The only one!
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
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"It's a chicken and egg problem. "
So, are you asking a chicken to commit suicide?
El 19/05/13 10:50, name at domain escribió:
> "It's a chicken and egg problem. "
> So, are you asking a chicken to commit suicide?
No, the egg.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
"No, the egg."
I don't think the egg want to commit suicide as well.
Whenever someone says they "have" to use proprietary software I am
immediately suspect.
This is a good read, I think:
http://www.ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/08/09/have-to-use.html
TL;DR version: What they really mean is that they "want" to use
proprietary software, not that they "have" to.
Helpful for re-framing the issue, I think.
"“Have To” Is a Relative Phrase"
Yes. Free choice is also very relative thing.
Joke from USSR:
You have a free choice. You will be a collective farmer or you will be killed.
I have been reading all posts and i want to share my opinion with you...
Firts, i mix, in this case above all, free software and anarchist philosophy:
surely you can find a free solution for this issue using vpn for work but is to hard to do if you dont have enough knowledge so, if you are unable to get this goal..you can get help here or another place to solve your problem using only free software, if not, you must to choose between freedrom or funcionnality.
Lets see the problem from another point of view. In your job you are wonking for your boss and the boss use propietary software and/or is forcing you to do the same...doenst matter if you are using free sotware or not in your work.. your boss is your owner so you are not free in any case. Any ways, think if must to be a victim of propietary sofware, is you boss not you.
I my work i use propieraty software.. i would like to use free software but i cant.. and i dont care because during the work my boss is the owner of my time..so..if in the company is running propieraty software is not my problem..the problem is with my boss.
Sorry for my english if i made some grammatical mistake or if some sentence is not understood
Regards!
Xlash.
"using vpn for work but is to hard to do if you dont have enough knowledge "
I don't think so. This seems to be quite easy. Just read this:
http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-remote-desktop-for-controlling-windows-xp-desktop.html
Yes i know but.. if some one is new to free operating systems it require more work and is hard to use and configure.. that why i said in my last post "you can get help here or another place to solve your problem using only free software" :D
Regards!
Xlash.
This problem is purely technical; not ethical. Instead of discussing should non-free flash player be used or not we should ask why is development of gnash stagnating for over a year; and what can we do to fix it.
I think Shumway are more perspective.
>This problem is purely technical; not ethical.
Technical solutions always have ethical consequences.
>we should ask why is development of gnash stagnating for over a year; and what can we do to fix it.
Now this I can agree with. I would think it has to do with flash being on its way out.
It will be long before flash disappears. In fact, flash animation is still taught in schools.
Blergh, once saw Flash development. That code looks ugly. Also the Container is kinda creepy. And Schools are often teaching old things because the Teachers often learned that a few years ago. We had Visual Basic in School because our teacher got a VB Licence from his son a few years ago. Flash will loose some Popularity over the next years in my Opinion. They dropped Support for Android, iOS never supported it. Also Windows in the "Metro" Mode only enables Flash per Whitelist. The next Horse is called Adobe Air, which is Flash with more crashes. What keeps Flash alive are Flash games and Youtube. Fortunately I can see most videos there as HTML5 Element.
On 19.05.2013, at 19:05, name at domain wrote:
> It will be long before flash disappears. In fact, flash animation is still taught in schools.
"give support for nonfree software by
personal email is against the list guidelines. "
Then, I think we are must to change the guideline. It is too strict.
What are sense of the community guideline, if there are many of us, who will not follow it?
I know you don't like democracy, but in this case, I think a democratic voting would be the best.
Muhammed said "My dad needs Flashplayer at home, for work. Help?"
Should the aim of the question is to look for the best free softwares able to replace flashplayer, ok it's correct otherwise it's a wrong way.
For us, Trisquel users, all proprietary softwares are prohibited. We use only free software and freedom is our choice for all of us. Trying to explain how installing non-free software is never helping.
Freedom is uncompromising ! we will not amend a section of the Trisquel Community Guidelines on the grounds that sometimes someone wishes to avoid.
"For us, Trisquel users, all proprietary softwares are prohibited."
Who are you to speak for all of us? For example, I'm very prefer FLOSS to non-free software. But, if I will really need to use non-free soft, then I will install it. I'm prefer to use FLOSS because it more beneficial to my egoistic interests and egoistic interests of a society. Not because I want to be saint of FSF Church.
P.S. By the way, I have only FLOSS on my computer now.
"For us, Trisquel users, all proprietary softwares are prohibited."
"“Have To” Is a Relative Phrase"
Really? In an hour I'll be at school. I have computer science class there and I will use proprietary software. Teacher personally uses GNU/Linux and recommends us to use it as well: and yet he **has to** use proprietary software.
Hypothetically, if he quit his job because of this, I doubt he would find a job where he could use free software. Welcome to real world :)
El 19/05/13 23:44, name at domain escribió:
> "For us, Trisquel users, all proprietary softwares are prohibited."
>
> "“Have To” Is a Relative Phrase"
>
> Really? In an hour I'll be at school. I have computer science class
> there and I will use proprietary software. Teacher personally uses
> GNU/Linux and recommends us to use it as well: and yet he **has to**
> use proprietary software.
>
> Hypothetically, if he quit his job because of this, I doubt he would
> find a job where he could use free software. Welcome to real world :)
I guess you don't have a lot of experience in the real world when you
are still at school. The job market for people that know how to use
libre (free as in freedom) software is greater than the market for
people that know about non-libre software.
But the point is not that. The point is that people that value
themselves have values. And they make their decisions primarily based on
values and not by other less important factors. At least good people do
that. I would've thought that a young man would value that more than
people of a middle age. Usually the youngest and the oldest come to
realize what the most important things in life are.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
" The job market for people that know how to use
libre (free as in freedom) software is greater than the market for
people that know about non-libre software."
This might be the case in ecuador, but in many countries, like in germany, this is completely wrong.
Furthermore, you didn't read the post of krofna properly.
We're talking about a _teacher_ whose whole education aimed at working for the state. If he breaks with this employer, he will hardly find a convenient new job.
Welcome to the real world! And I don't go to school anymore for a long time, so I have some experiences.
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El 20/05/13 04:04, name at domain escribió:
> " The job market for people that know how to use
> libre (free as in freedom) software is greater than the market for
> people that know about non-libre software."
>
> This might be the case in ecuador, but in many countries, like in
germany, this is completely wrong.
> Furthermore, you didn't read the post of krofnica properly.
> We're talking about a _teacher_ whose whole education aimed at working
for the state. If he breaks with this employer, he will hardly find a
convenient new job.
> Welcome to the real world! And I don't go to school anymore for a long
time, so I have some experiences.
I know Ecuador is a growing economy for libre software but the rest of
the World is also with mobile devices flooding the market. Perhaps
Germany is in crisis. But that does not mean that libre software is not
better than any other area. Do have some stats?
- --
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
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Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre
copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
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@Roboq6 : "all of us" means "all Trisquel users". And for me, a Trisquel user is only using free software in his personal use.
If you prefer using non-free software, it's your choice but in this case what are you doing here ? what is your purpose ? you do like playing the troll, don't you ?
@Krofna : talking about an employee in a firm (or a teacher) is different. I will be an idiot if i was loosing my job and wasn't able to feed my family because of refusing non-free software. When we work in a company, computers are owned by this company. Either we accept working conditions of the company, or we look for another job.
I'm PREFER to use FLOSS. My computer have only free/open software installed. But I also realize, that sometimes compromise are better choice.
The whole situation quite funny. On linux.org.ru(popular linux forum in exUSSR) I have reputation of zealot of FSF. :-)
"For example, I'm very prefer FLOSS to non-free software."
Oh, sh*t! Maybe there are misunderstanding? English not my native language, so sometimes I making errors. I mean "If I could use FLOSS, then I will use FLOSS. Otherwise, I will use non-free software(or will not use any software)"
I don't think anyone here actually manages to use only nonfree software; my laptop, for example, has a nonfree BIOS. The point is that we try to use only free software, and we don't accept nonfree software. If we are forced to use nonfree software, we treat it as a problem that must be solved.
Well, this is very acceptable.
But if you're taking the guidelines for serious, nobody here will help you when you have to update your bios, and I think that's not good.
What are you talking about? I'm sure people here would be perfectly happy to help update a nonfree BIOS to a free one (if they have the ability to help). Is there even a reason you would "update" the nonfree BIOS to a newer nonfree BIOS?
This would one call a "replacement" and not an update.
But anyway:
it's strange that no one is allowed to help others installing non-free software, no matter under which circumstance, but almost everyone is using non-free software.
I heard all the time "there is no reason why running prop. software is acceptable" (not even losing the job), but most of the members do.
"Is there even a reason you would "update" the nonfree BIOS to a newer nonfree BIOS?"
Yes. Sometimes updating of BIOS help fix some technical problems. Sometimes new version have additional features.
FLOSS BIOS have much better functionality, but installation of it very problematic. Ask Chris.
Interesting discussion.
I'm glad that there are people in this world like Richard Stallman. I'm glad there's a distro like Trisquel. I'm glad there is a company like ThinkPenguin. We need them all.
And, I'm not in a position to live that purely 100% of the time, personally. Yet. Something to work toward, yes. Something to litigate in the meantime? Nah.
To the mods I would say: Someone once recommended Fedora to me here. The FSF doesn't consider it "free enough" to put on the Good Distros list. Was the person who made that recommendation in violation of the guidelines? I guess so. But nobody made a fuss, because Fedora isn't demonized in this theology, like Flash is.
As far as I can see, you're handling it about right. State the position, encourage what's right, but leave the banhammer in the drawer, as long as people are polite.
Freedom. Veneceremos. Peace.
El 20/05/13 16:19, name at domain escribió:
> Interesting discussion.
>
> I'm glad that there are people in this world like Richard Stallman.
> I'm glad there's a distro like Trisquel. I'm glad there is a company
> like ThinkPenguin. We need them all.
>
> And, I'm not in a position to live that purely 100% of the time,
> personally. Yet. Something to work toward, yes. Something to litigate
> in the meantime? Nah.
Yes you can. But you have not put enough time to do it. It is a tough
job. But a man gotta do what a man gatta do.
>
> To the mods I would say: Someone once recommended Fedora to me here.
> The FSF doesn't consider it "free enough" to put on the Good Distros
> list. Was the person who made that recommendation in violation of the
> guidelines? I guess so. But nobody made a fuss, because Fedora isn't
> demonized in this theology, like Flash is.
>
There are not many people thinking Fedora is good for your freedom.
Perhaps Fedora rivals with Debian on its freedom.
> As far as I can see, you're handling it about right. State the
> position, encourage what's right, but leave the banhammer in the
> drawer, as long as people are polite.
Nobody is hammer banging anybody. We are just helping people notice they
are not being fairly treated when they accep non-free software. Some
might take it as a personal attack. But it is not. It is just the opposite.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en conjunto con el resto de socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
Av de la Prensa N58-219 y Cristóbal Vaca de Castro
Quito, Ecuador
(02)-600 8579
IRC: http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=asle&uio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWU3a
Todo correo que reciba será tratado como información pública, de libre copia y modificación, sin importar cualquier nota de confidencialidad.
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