Chris from TP is a hypocrite
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http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/11/linux-mint-inks-another-hardware-deal
For a guy and company that are cheerleaders for the libre operating systems, I found it surprising to read this. Ya know, with Linux Mint being known to not be a true free software OS and includes more non-free software than stock Ubuntu.
Chris in the past has critiqued me for my views on software, but this announcement shows his true side. I find it comical really that he is such a hypocrite and is using all of you to peddle his hardware.
Got anything to say about this Chris?
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I'm pretty sure Chris has mentioned that thinkpenguin supports Linux Mint which develops free software while shipping some non-free software. Thinkpenguin is a business and needs as many deals as it can get to remain sustainable. It's a win-win situation: Linux Mint advertises thinkpenguin and in return thinkpenguin funds mint and makes money from mint users who buy their hardware (with mint preinstalled) which helps them remain sustainable and provides funding for newer models which will also run Trisquel. So even Trisquel users benefit from this.
Also, the mint buyers can switch to Trisquel at any time without needing to get new hardware if they become interested in software freedom, which isn't true for every GNU/Linux user due to hardware compatibility.
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The switching is a good argument for why we should support Linux Mint and other distributions. While this is not justification for Linux Mint's decision to include non-free components they don't contribute to the development of non-free software. Canonical on the other hand does. Or they were from what I understand (I think this was only on the back end for the server).
So basically he is a chameleon who adapts his viewpoints to whatever message board he is on? If you are so loyal to free software, this should annoy you.
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I never claimed we were perfect although nothing in the Linux Mint announcement contradicts anything that I have said. Trisquel, the Free Software Foundation, and others are working with others where it is mutually beneficial. To say we shouldn't is just FUD.
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Unfortunately. selling only computers with Trisquel, a distro most people have never heard of or have very little interest in trying out, probably won't make thinkpenguin enough money to fund future models. Also, any free software developed by mint and partially funded by thinkpenguin can be used by Trisquel users in the future, so Trisquel users benefit also from new free software.
Even if I agree that if Chris wouldn't sell computers with other Gnu/Linux Distribution than Trisquel he wouldn't (maybe) had enough money to run in a good way his business, I personally can't agree with the rest of your point of view.
I don't want to be "extremist" but saying something like that is the same way as saying that Steam will be good because, even knowing that the software and the games are non-free, it will get more people to come to Gnu/Linux and perhaps donate.
If someone supports free software he should not go to the "dark side" every time "the money is calling".
But once again, and don't take me wrong. I think that this isn't a good way for promoting only free software and only using it, as it isn't good for this community to have posts like this that have for only purpose to criticize and create a bad environment between the users and forum readers and call of hate over other users.
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The difference is that mint and Ubuntu develop mostly free software, whereas Steam develops primarily non-free software.
I do think though that it would be good to also make deals with more popular distros that also value software freedom (even if they aren't FSF endorsed) such as Debian or Fedora.
You know, I mostly agree with this too. I prefer see people use Ubuntu than Windows because Ubuntu will value more their freedom than Windows. But you can't forget that, Linux Mint (and t3g is right about that) supports more non-free software than Ubuntu itself. As a matter of fact those 2 distributions are becoming more problematic for the use of only free software.
You can't (as an example) use Unity with the Nouveau Driver, you will have an horrible performance problem, and that is a simple fact. I personally don't like Linux Mint because of that kind of problem... it is a distribution centred (almost) on non-free software, and would have preferred to see thinkPenguin releasing a machine under Ubuntu for the Ubuntu community than for Linux Mint.
But once again, those are only my single thoughts and this is just marketing, I don't censure Chris has I already asked him in another post why there was support for Ubuntu and had a good answer for my question from here, after that anyone do what he/she wants. And, if Chris can "survive" financially only with Hardware and Trisquel, and if this kind of business affairs is good for him to survive and for us to continue to have free hardware, then I have nothing to say.
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I'm pretty sure Unity 3D not working with nouveau is a bug which will be fixed. Since nouveau is reverse engineered its performance might not be consistent (it might work better on some graphic cards than on others). I'm guessing that Canonical might only provide Unity 3D if the graphics card passes some tests that Unity checks, otherwise it falls back to 2D to ensure best performance.
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I don't know about this specifically although nouveau is the default driver in Ubuntu for nVidia graphics cards. nouveau is also going into the mainline kernel so it may become the default in other distributions as well. Linus has also criticized nVidia recently despite "attacking" the free software foundation (??? correct this if I worded it wrong).
I think Linus was mainly upset about the state of NVIDIA support for GNU/Linux. I somehow think Linus doesn't care whether that means more support for the proprietary driver or nouveau.
NVIDIA used to maintain the free nv driver, but apparently it was never very good. It got abandoned by NVIDIA in favour of their proprietary driver, and so nouveau forked it.
Some links I found interesting about the nv/nouveau incident:
http://www.abclinuxu.cz/clanky/rozhovory/andy-ritger-nvidia?page=1 (see point 5)
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODQ2MQ
http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ#Do_you_get_any_support_from_NVidia.3F
This was just an example to say that developers from those enterprises usually use a lot of non-free software to develop their solutions, it is true that the Free and OpenSouce variant of this can do the difference but until that a long time passed between the release and the "patch".
As for the rest of the topic, If I made myself understand in a false way than I'm sorry for everyone concerned. I'm just saying that a news like this should be (at least) announced in another way than this one, and that, even if t3g won't agree with this positions, there are ways ans ways to say it without "attacking" since it is what I see in the top post (sorry t3g if it wasn't the case).
I personally see this as a developer supporting Windows or Ubuntu, he develops free software as a single or as an enterprise, but, in order to make more money out of his free software, he adds support for Ubuntu, Windows, Mac etc... That makes (to him) the need to use those OS's (in order to test them) and the benefit of having a larger group of users (and mostly clients).
It is not (in my opinion) the situation that I would like to see in 2012 but it is also better than create non-free software to start.
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It isn't possible to operate ThinkPenguin solely on the funds from Trisquel and other free distributions. Trisquel is not an insubstantial contributor to our bottom line though. It's far surpassed what I ever thought possible. We don't support Trisquel for the money. It has to do with it being pure to the cause. If it wasn't there is zero chance I'd have contacted Rubén about it. There are certain things that Trisquel excels at though. One of them is hardware support. I'll take some credit for this. It's not so much that you have a broad ray of compatible hardware as you have a small set of hardware that works well. Linux Mint, Ubuntu, and other distributions can't compete with Trisquel here. They include non-free components that could lose support from the manufacturer at any given time.
Adobe's Flash
Oracle's Java
Lexmark printers
Alongside many others. There have been issues in the recent past and there is no reason think that companies are going to stop discontinuing hardware or support. There is a threat to losing support for anything dependent on non-free software. Even where the license agreements ensure that companies can continue to distribute a piece of non-free software there is no way to make sure that software continues to be safe to distribute. It doesn't even take one zero-day exploit to cause Canonical to pull support for a component you depend on.
On 11/01/2012 11:14 PM, name at domain wrote:
> It isn't possible to operate ThinkPenguin solely on the funds from
> Trisquel and other free distributions. Trisquel is not an
> insubstantial contributor to our bottom line though. It's far
> surpassed what I ever thought possible. We don't support Trisquel for
> the money. It has to do with it being pure to the cause. If it wasn't
> there is zero chance I'd have contacted Rubén about it. There are
> certain things that Trisquel excels at though. One of them is hardware
> support. I'll take some credit for this. It's not so much that you
> have a broad ray of compatible hardware as you have a small set of
> hardware that works well. Linux Mint, Ubuntu, and other distributions
> can't compete with Trisquel here. They include non-free components
> that could lose support from the manufacturer at any given time.
>
> Adobe's Flash
> Oracle's Java
> Lexmark printers
>
> Alongside many others. There have been issues in the recent past and
> there is no reason think that companies are going to stop
> discontinuing hardware or support. There is a threat to losing support
> for anything dependent on non-free software. Even where the license
> agreements ensure that companies can continue to distribute a piece of
> non-free software there is no way to make sure that software continues
> to be safe to distribute. It doesn't even take one zero-day exploit to
> cause Canonical to pull support for a component you depend on.
>
>
>
>
>
I appreciate Chris’s efforts in supporting free-software. I am using one
of his laptops at this time running Trisquel 5.5
Tom Gilliard
Bend Oregon
satellit on #trisquel and #sugar freenode IRC
What model ?
ThinkPenguin.com supports Ubuntu and Linux Mint, the only version of the website only providing Free Software is libre.thinkpenguin.com.
Even if I disagree with this position, it is nothing more nothing less than a marketing position. If you buy this computer using the "normal" link you will donate 10% to the Linux Mint project. But if you buy the same on with the libre.thinkpenguin.com link you will donate 25% to the Trisquel's project.
But I think that the only person that could say anything about this is Chris. Until then this is my position on this topic.
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10 percent of the price goes to mint if you buy hardware from the mint website, whereas Trisquel gets 25 percent of profits from this site, so it isn't 10 vs 25 percent.
Didn't knew about that detail. Thank you for the information :D
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Linux Mint is getting 10% and another 10% is going to a fund to support free software projects. This is if you use the linuxmint link. The libre link will fund Trisquel just as it did before. Trisquel never got 25% of everything. It's only ever got 25% of the profits from libre.thinkpenguin.com. The Free Software Foundation also gets 10% of sales depending on how the site is accessed or the channel in which you purchase hardware (some hardware is available elsewhere).
The fund should help to support projects like:
Linterna Mágica
GNU MediaGoblin
and others...
The reason we are doing this fund is because there are a lot of projects out there that could use the money and have no means to raise it. Trisquel is actually in a good position to raise money for itself compared to a project like Linterna Mágica. Despite that Linterna Mágica is an important project. One I've wanted to better support for some time.
Chris has done a hell of a lot more for Trisquel than you ever have, t3g.
The whole draw of Linux Mint is to take the Ubuntu or Debian base and make it more "user friendly" by adding non-free software and proprietary codecs.
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The popular non-free software (fonts, flash etc) can be easily installed on Ubuntu as well as they are part of one package, so it's quite easy to install on Ubuntu as well.
Listen, Chris is working to get hardware that works without requiring non-free software. The fact that someone prefers to run a system that includes non-free software is their business. If Chris began selling hardware that was designed to work with the non-free software that Linux Mint features then I would suggest that is a problem.
The truth about it is that there just aren't a ton of people out there looking for exclusively free software. I think the numbers are growing but it's not a huge demand right now. I've talked to Chris and I can tell he's passionate about free software. I'm sure he grinds his teeth a bit knowing that Linux Mint has non-free software in it but at least someone can easily transition from Mint to Trisquel(or other free distros) without worry that their hardware isn't going to work properly.
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We don't sell hardware that is dependent on non-free drivers or firmware and aren't going to start just because Linux Mint supports it. I'm against offering such hardware and always have been. We require at least some confirmation that there will be support for the chipset by a free driver/firmware. Be that it in actual code released or an agreement to release code.
There are a few items I'd like to add to our catalog and can't. One is a mini pcie Bluetooth / Wireless combo card and the other is a newer USB N adapter. The later we are working with Atheros on. The former we hopefully will be. It's not a priority though as we have a temporarily solution (Bluetooth USB dongle).
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Deals with popular GNU/Linux distros will hopefully lead to more sales from thinkpenguin which will also lead to cheaper new models since then thinkpenguin can earn a profit with smaller profit margins per unit. We all know how much hardware which barely sells costs without external funding (see GTA04 from Golden Delicious which costs more than most smartphones despite the hardware being mid-range specs wise).
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This was the major announcement I've spoken about in days past.
Before the next person calls me a hypocrite nothing has changed. I'm not here to make any excuses. They aren't necessary. We have always had a version of the site that includes compatibility information on distributions that include some non-free pieces. It's why I encourage people to link to libre.thinkpenguin.com and not www.thinkpenguin.com. Moving people off of non-free software takes time. I would like to discontinue this although that is unlikely to happen in the immediate future. The major distributions would need to work with us and others more and push harder for users trying out GNU/Linux to replace pieces rather than install non-free drivers.
The majority of distributions include some non-free pieces because most system have a component or two that are dependent on such pieces. I of all people would love distributions which include non-free software to stop doing so. Every computer sold today though includes some non-free software even where a free distribution is installed and is 100% functional. Every person here has had to make some compromises. Richard Stallman is no exception, Rubén Rodríguez is no exception, Clement Lefebvre is no exception, I am no exception. We all have a non-free BIOS (or most of us), we all have some non-free micro code in our systems (all of us).
While you can hide and pretend non-free software does not exist, the Free Software Foundation isn't hiding, the Trisquel project isn't hiding, and others who support the Free Software Foundation's definition of freedom aren't hiding. Working with the 'enemy'' where it is mutually beneficial is standard operating procedure. The only enemy which might be the exception that I can think of is Microsoft. These 'enemies' are those distributions which are including some third party non-free pieces.
Free software was not originally written on free operating systems. A lot of it was originally developed on non-free platforms. The GNU project was started in 1983 and the free software foundation in 1985. The Linux kernel was not started until 1991 and there was no free software platform to work off.
Trisquel itself is based on a distribution which includes non-free software. The bugs that exist in Trisquel and are also in Ubuntu are fixed in a manor which is mutually beneficial. The people working on Trisquel submit patches / bug reports to the upstream project (Ubuntu) where applicable. The Trisquel developers could say “we will take Ubuntu's free code although not work with Canonical”. It doesn't work like that though.
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How embarrassing t3g.
You make it seem as if you just uncovered a conspiracy that Chris now only ships systems with proprietary operating systems, and that he lobbies microsoft with 10% of his profits.
Please, t3g, for the sake of everyone's jimmies, stop posting. The fact that you are complaining about this issue is actually absurd. You regularly defend proprietary software developers and their motives. You, t3g, hero of free software, bastion of hope, do NOTHING, zero, nada, to help this community - except bitch and complain like a toddler about Ruben, release scheduling, free software licensing or other members of this board.
Chris has done more for users' freedom than you have, t3g.
Your net worth to free software and this community is zero. It is intellectually lazy and dishonest to constantly criticize others while returning not a damn thing back to the community.
Go away.
edit: how has he not been banned yet? This is borderline shitposting.
Is very bad advise Linux Mint. Of course. But the important in my opinion is the hardware. And it is the same. If you install Trisquel it works perfectly because ThinkPenguin computers run free systems without non-free firmwares and non-free drivers. Without dependency of this.
It's the important. I think is very difficult for Chris sell computers with Free Software Distros only.
To me, this practice is the hardware equivalent to dual-licensing free/proprietary in the software world. I have never really seen an ethical problem with dual-licensing and I do not see any with hardware either. In both cases, the user is proposed solutions that fully respects her freedoms and, even if, for some lack of awareness, she wants proprietary software, she can, at any moment, easily switch to the free solution (in the case of ThinkPenguin: all devices are optimal choices for a 100% free GNU/Linux system).
If, from a business point of view, that brings more money to free software-friendly companies, this is all good (if the vendor only proposes free software, the user refusing free software solutions would simply switch vendor). In the software world, it does not seem to work well: dual licensing is less and less common. It seems to work better with hardware. :-)
Such dual licensing makes getting help from free software developers
harder (e.g. due to copyright assignment or contributor agreements,
while having unintegrated patches in various distros/forks). I don't
see any similar problems with supporting both free and nonfree distros
on hardware working without nonfree software.
So... it was as I said xD This is simply (explained in a Aliasbody's way) like a Free Software Developer that would create a version for Linux Mint or Ubuntu (or even Windows). The product itself is free software, the idea is to promote free software, but anyone with their platform could use it.
Am I wrong ?
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While I generally agree with the sentiment in certain cases dual-licensing does have potential issues. It doesn't ensure users rights are protected for the company licensing the software. At least not if it is under a BSD license or similar. You could also license it under a completely proprietary style license. This is bad for the ultimate users for so many reasons. It means they become dependent on a company that may or may not support the product going forward. With a free license it can simply be forked. The improvements or features added won't be lost.
I'm not sure this is a really good analogy though since the user is guaranteed to be able to switch from a distribution containing some non-free software (or even a non-free OS) to a distribution like Trisquel which only includes free software.
The problem is that some of you are wishy-washy in your viewpoint on this and supporting him. In the past, Chris has corrected others in the way of free software because himself and his company are strong supporters and gave the impression that non-free software is bad.
It annoys me a little that he has argued with me on the ethics of free software then his company supports products that violate it. I'll be honest... one of the draws of TP is that they broke away from companies like System76 in offering only free software compatible hardware. Now they are the same type of company. The only difference is System76 has better hardware for the price.
Some of you need to practice what you preach. Would RMS accept this type of deal? Think about that before you critique others.
People who want Mint installed on a computer are people who are either 1) unaware that proprietary software controls their computing or 2) not considering their freedoms as important (which is sad from my point of view).
In the first case, by buying a computer at ThinkPenguin, the user can easily switch to a 100% free GNU/Linux system (what makes ThinkPenguin *unique* today). In the second case, ThinkPenguin earns money to sustain its free software activity (in particular this selection of freedom-friendly hardware).
In both cases, the two users can buy hardware for Mint elsewhere (for instance at CompuLab, which pre-installs this GNU/Linux distribution). That would be worse for freedom lovers who really needs a company like Chris' to easily buy devices/computers that are guaranteed to work with Linux-libre.
Non-free software is bad and I am sure Chris will never say the opposite. Selling freedom-friendly hardware, including to users who want a "dirty" GNU/Linux system, is good. Stallman uses a Lemote laptop and Lemote is not only pre-installing 100% free systems. Actually, I do not even know if they propose them!
Like other users of this forum have pointed, your trolls about the lack of freedom of the GNU licenses/ThinkPenguin/etc. are ridiculous when, at the same time, most of posts are about promoting or defending proprietary software. You should try to compete with other trolls for a prize. Since you are the one troll in this community, please go away trolling with people of your "level".
Not trolling. Just find it humorous that you guys drill it down everyone else's throats about how things should be free software with no ifs, ands, or buts and then come around and defend the pre-installation of an operating system that conflicts with your ideals.
It is true that you can wipe out Mint and install with Trisquel, but if that is the goal, why even sell them to begin with? Might as well get the free software alternative and not promote the sales of Mint. Chris has tasted the forbidden fruit and it is oh so juicy.
Some of you are also defending this decision because you are realizing that selling 100% libre systems isn't profitable by itself. In the past you have argued with me that money can be made from free software and one should never go down the dark path of accepting non-free software on your systems to make money. You have talked about using service contracts to make a profit and RMS has said that there are more ethical jobs like a factory worker instead of writing proprietary software.
Are you guys really that sheepish and brainwashed to ignore the realization that the thought of TP selling Linux Mint based systems is hurting your cause?
There are (and always have been) "ifs, ands, or and buts" when talking about free software. For instance, I believe that most of us consider positive:
- To use proprietary software for the goal of developing free software (rms himself was using Unix to replace its components);
- To port free software to proprietary operating system such as Windows, hence helping the users of this subjugating system make the switch after tasting freedom (Emacs, for instance, is available on DOS, Windows, Mac OS X, proprietary Unices, etc.);
- To let proprietary software developers use some free software libraries if, otherwise, they would simply use an equivalent proprietary library, hence not help the free library improve (that is what the GNU LGPL is all about);
- ...
As I explained earlier, I think that proposing not only Trisquel but other GNU/Linux distributions on freedom-friendly hardware is positive in a similar way as the examples above. It is *helping* our cause.
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You have a slight point here. However we have NOT changed the position that we held before. Promoting non-free software (linking to it) is bad. I'm not going to say it is good. We're not perfect.
We're working to fix a number of issues like this ourselves. Our site has a section that includes a few pieces of non-free software. Originally we made people aware the software was non-free. However RMS pointed out the problem with that to me and while we have not fixed it yet we did point to the FSF directory for users of completely libre distributions.
When/if we implement this section in our next upgrade we won't include programs that are non-free on the main site.
When users visit libre.thinkpenguin.com they are not shown compatibility information with distributions containing non-free software. We also don't exclude Trisquel from the main site, nor do we exclude it from the linuxmint.thinkpenguin.com site.
This is not a two way street here. We have also changed some things about the main site. We no longer use Ubuntu case badges on the computer systems. We now show powered by GNU/Linux instead.
It's utterly absurd to say these things. Even the FSF's web site is not perfect. There are issues and we need to encourage people / organizations / companies to fix the problems rather than blast them for things that may or may not be issues.
If I have anything to say about it we will removed all distributions with non-free software some day. Simply excluding them and never working with these distributions though is not the solution.
Like the work the free software organizers are doing with Debian it's a process. Your not going to recommend Debian today although you are still going to work with them and try to improve the free software situation for tomorrow. This is similar to our situation. We have libre.thinkpenguin.com just so that people do not have to recommend non-free software.
If I didn't care about Trisquel or free software there would be no support. Trisquel is a tiny distribution compared to Linux Mint and hundreds of others. It's not logical (from a business perspective) that I spent the time to work on free software when there are other distributions that would bring in more money for us.
It was not a practical decision. It was an ethical one.
I'm a big believer that we should make it easier to switch to free software and that won't happen if we ignore those who are using it today.
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The point of Think Penguin is not about shipping a free-software-only operating system, the point is selling a computer that does not require non-free software to run at full potential.
RMS buys computers from Lemote[1] that promote several non-free distros[2].
[1] http://www.stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
[2] http://www.lemote.com/en/services/technical/
"Chris from TP is a hypocrite"
Aren't personal attacks against some forum rule or guideline?
I know that some of you don't consider Debian free software due to the availability of non-free repositories even though the stock install is free. With that in mind, TP can't be considered a true free software company since there is the option to get systems with non-free software installed by default.
TP has to be 100% loyal to free software or else they are like every other computer reseller. Sorry.
I disagree with you. If you think you can do better than Think Penguin then go do it otherwise I think you should appreciate that there is someone out there trying to further the cause by selling hardware that can run using free software. The difference between TP and other companies is that other companies DON'T CARE AT ALL if you have to use non-free software for something to work.
With the consumer market moving to smartphones and tablets and with those who use a PC stick with Windows, the real target should be enterprise.
That's a valid argument for not linking to or endorsing www (dot) thinkpenguin (dot) com or linuxmint (dot) thinkpenguin (dot) com.
However, http://libre.thinkpenguin.com is still completely free of any trace of anything nonfree. The only way to contrive it as unethical to support libre.thinkpenguin.com also allows you to contrive any otherwise perfect free program that has involvement from a developer that also develops nonfree software as unethical to support. I think that's an unnecessary and extreme position to take.
I'm not going to argue whether Chris himself is making an ethical choice in making this deal with Linux Mint, but it really doesn't matter. It's separate from http://libre.thinkpenguin.com, which is what I link to and endorse. In addition, customers have to either click on a link which has "linuxmint" in front of the URL or type it in explicitly themselves to get the version of the website which endorses Linux Mint, so nobody is going to accidentally go there automatically (people will only accidentally go there if they click on a Linux Mint supporter's link which includes "linuxmint" in front of the URL, and that's by the hand of the Linux Mint supporter, not Chris).
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Oh no! You called Chris out! Now surely he will leave out of embarrassment, and all hail t3g!
No, seriously, I'm starting to agree with others that you need to stop posting here. I see you defending proprietary software all the time, so you really don't gain anything for calling somebody out like this. Plus, aren't *you* being a hypocrite for calling somebody out for installing proprietary software, when you promote it/defend it?
On a completely unrelated thought, I think it'd be cool if someone made a 100% free software version of Linux Mint. It's a very appealing and pretty distro.
I haven't supported proprietary software in this thread. I am doing quite the opposite and calling out Chris and his company for allowing proprietary software to be associated with Think Penguin.
As for having a distro look like Linux Mint, you can always go to their http://packages.linuxmint.com page and download the mint icons and mint themes .deb files.
"in this thread"
Need I say more?
...eh, not really
I don't fully support proprietary software and prefer to find an open source version/alternative first. I don't use the Adobe or Microsoft products for development and I don't run Windows either. I'm also not naive and realize there are those rare opportunities when I may have to use proprietary software to accomplish something when there is no other alternative and it is an important task. Of course I don't actually remember ever paying for Photoshop or Microsoft Office in the past. ;-)
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