Cortès & Wingo
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What is all this FUD going around all about?
http://techrights.org/2020/02/16/au-revoir-gnu-linux/
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Caleb Herbert
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> What is all this FUD going around all about?
I have no idea, way too long of a rant to read it all.
He writes --
"The real story is that people are still fighting, but idiots who think they care about Free software are arguing with them for standing for the same thing said idiots (Looking at YOU, Trisquel!) USED TO stand up for. Can I just say one more time — as a once-fan of Trisquel, what an absolute P-A-R-O-D-Y of its own mission it is now? Much like the FSF itself. But to be fair, any effort to do better than the FSF (or Trisquel) is struggling pretty hard, and chest-beating won’t help really. If you’re looking for Tarzan, I’m pretty sure he’s hanging out with Steve Ballmer these days. And more civilized than Steve, too."
-- which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Even in terms of his "any effort to do better than Trisquel is struggling pretty hard" makes no sense. We have more libre distro choices than ever before, and more of them work really well on all kinds of hardware. We have systemd choices, non-systemd choices, conservative release schedules, rolling release, specialist distros - all kinds of libre distro options. And we have tools to spin our own libre versions of otherwise non-libre distros, which happens fairly frequently in the case of puppy and of devuan.
Techrights is the Breitbart News of "open source": forget it.
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On 2/22/20 9:49 PM, name at domain wrote:
> Techrights is the Breitbart News of technology: forget it.
Thought so.
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Caleb Herbert
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No, sometimes they are right sometimes they are wrong. There is some truth to what they say.
Redhat is essentially worse than they say, it is a demon trying to corrupt the GNU/Linux OS to their liking.
Did you bully or ignore him too in this forum?
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On 2/23/20 3:28 AM, name at domain wrote:
> Did you bully or ignore him too in this forum?
No.
Also, what?
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Caleb Herbert
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Is Ted MacReilly in this forum?
Conspiracy theorists are a plague. For instance, the same article calher found accuses the FSF of "taking bribes", of "being 'pwned' by corporations" and of "lying":
Whether there are enough to still rescue the FSF Titanic (or build a new one) depends on how many more allies join in the fight — I don’t mean joining the FSF, because that’s useless.
Your money won’t help them until they stop taking bribes. They’re lying and pretending that they need your money to stop them from being “pwned” by corporations, but they’re already pwned.
https://www.fsf.org/patrons lists nine companies (IUT Béziers is a public university). Only one of them, Private Internet Access (a VPN service), reached the $50,000-level of patronage. Even if all nine would donate as much, that would represent $450,000 overall. FSF's latest "filing information" ( https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018.pdf ) shows that its total revenue in "Contributions, Gifts, Grants and Other Similar Amounts" is $2,711,515 (Part VIII.1.h). So, corporate patronage amounts to less than one sixth of those revenues. In those circumstances, it is hard to imagine the FSF "being 'pwed' by corporations". Even if corporate patronage would represent the majority of FSF's revenues, it would still not mean the FSF takes bribes and is "pwed" by corporations.
The accusation is serious. Especially because the FSF is a nonprofit charity (with the 501(c)(3) status under the the US Internal Revenue Code), which, by the way, was given for the seventh time in a row the highest rate by Charity Navigator for its "strong financial health and commitment to accountability and transparency" (words of Charity Navigator's president), including a 100% score in the "transparency" category: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/charity-navigator-awards-the-fsf-coveted-four-star-rating-for-the-seventh-time-in-a-row
In the end, what evidence does Techrights give that the FSF "takes bribes" or that it is already "pwned" by corporations or that it is is "lying"? None. Only conspiracy theories. And insults. In the referred article alone: idiot(s) (five times), crap (twice), bastards, scumbag, F— You, etc. In Techrights' post-truth world, Stallman and the organization he founded are now opposing themselves. Still from the same article:
You’re either standing up for freedom (and Stallman) or you’re handing everything off to an organization that has abandoned both its mission and honesty.
Yet, anyone can read at the top of https://stallman.org written in a large bold font and with a link to https://my.fsf.org/donate :
Please donate to the Free Software Foundation to support its work for your freedom.
Btw, just to be clear about this:
Yet, anyone can read at the top of https://stallman.org written in a large bold font and with a link to https://my.fsf.org/donate :
anyone can say anything. Its not hard to realize that.
I am starting to think FSF is sinking even deeper without Stallman at the helm. :/
Btw, just to be clear about this
It is not clear to me. Are you insinuating that Stallman considers the FSF "has abandoned both its mission and honesty" (as Techrights writes) but asks anyway to donate to it "to support its work for your freedom"?
No, just because you disagree with something doesn't make it so. I disagree with FSF being bribed at least in part, because I think they aren't taking the threat of OSPS seriously. Did you read the whole article? or did you just cherrypick the parts you think are the easiest to attack?
Regardless, Trisquel is just an ordinary fork stripping the non-free parts of ubuntu out and while the FSF isn't probably bribed, they don't take redhat, google, apple or microsoft threats seriously enough.
For one thing, redhat's systemd, dbus, pulseaudio, networkmanager and their libraries are meant to restrict freedom.
how you may wonder? By convincing other software creators to adopt their software even knowing it will break backwards compatibility with rival software. Also, redhat purposely breaks backwards compatibility with software that will not accept their ways. And no its not conspiracy, it is actually true.
You are just blinded to the truth, as are others.
It is kind of depressing.
You know they are right I think but don't want to admit it.
The FSF is failing on the issue of free licensed software that is being used to restrict freedom. That is where the FSF is failing. Until you accept this fact, there is no pointing getting angry other than to get in the way.
And no its not conspiracy, it is actually true. You are just blinded to the truth, as are others.
Techrights and you have no evidence. But you do not need any: you have the "truth". And, whatever the discussed topic, that "truth" always deals with systemd and Red Hat, the "demon". That is religious. I prefer the scientific method. Because it works.
Scientific method, not sure if thats true, even if you think I have "religious" way of looking at redhat, do you have any evidence what I am saying is wrong? And by the way, Anytime I show you actual evidence you say, that said issue was fixed, and the fact of the matter is, you don't know that for sure.
We have some escape routes now for escaping this situation, but they will become fewer and fewer in gnu/linux if people don't rise up.
And if you think I completely believe everything in that article, no i don't. For one thing ditching the gnu/linux kernel in favor of BSD is the best way to avoid this redhat monster.
All this being said, if you really believed in the scientific method, anytime I mention criticism of redhat stuff, you wouldn't get angry and jump on the attack.
You would say to yourself with a clear head, is this valid and if it isn't you would disagree without showing very clearly hatred in your posts.
I am sorry to say that I have failed in this regard in the past few days as well. I apologize for this, but I don't think that changes the truth.
Besides, why trust a non-libre corporation that makes non-libre OS? And is known to be very controversial. I don't really understand. Maybe I won't ever understand,
But yeah, to make matters put simple, I feel like you have a closed mind. :/
do you have any evidence what I am saying is wrong?
I do not need any: the accusation has the burden of the proof. Until Techrights or you shows evidence that the FSF "takes bribes", "is 'pwned' by corporations" and "lying", it is not the "truth". Paraphrasing Bertrand Russell: you have no evidence that between the Earth and Mars there is no china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit (and that is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes). Yet, that does not make it a truth.
I feel like you have a closed mind.
Having an open mind is not changing one's mind whenever somebody claims something. If that somebody brings no evidence that what she says is true (she just says "believe me blindly: it is the truth"), it is stupid to change one's mind.
> The FSF is failing on the issue of free licensed software that is being used to restrict freedom.
That's not the job of the FSF though, and they have their hands full just dealing with licensing issues. We can't expect them to also be the defender of software compatibility.
The thing is, we have lots and lots of alternatives to systemd and pulseaudio and other issues you've raised. My current setup is pure openrc, with no systemd shims or sysvinit scripts. I can easily switch to pure runit or S6 if I like, or I can move to a Devuan-style sysvinit approach if I like, or antiX-style systemd shim with sysvinit scripts setup. I personally think something that's extremely small and streamlined like S6 with 66 service management in Obarun GNU/Linux is the way of the future, but it's still a bit too bleeding edge for my comfort and probably has backward compatibility issues.
Lots of great work is being done in this area. There's no reason to try to shout down anyone just because they prefer the convenience of a systemd/pulseaudio/dbus setup. Us folks who don't want to be restricted by the preferred packages from Ubuntu and RedHat can simply go our own way, and wish our systemd friends well. Or we can try to convince them to try something better, but in a situation where someone like Magic Banana strongly disagrees with you there's no value in continuing to argue the point.
You have a very important point. I just get tired of when people call reputable sources FUD.
Techrights is very reputable. It's not like breitbart, it is more like youngturks is to the establishment democrats and to the republicans.
Aka, it tells it like it is and while no source of news is perfect, it does the best it can.
Whereas other sources are so corporately owned. Free licenses can be used for evil, google is one such example.
GPL3 and AGPL3 are harder to abuse.
Although I still disagree that free software should be allowed to restrict freedom without backlash from the FSF.
But yeah, you raise some good points.
Btw, the title of this thread seems, confusing, who is cortes and wingo?
> Btw, the title of this thread seems, confusing, who is cortes and wingo?
I have no idea.
Ludovic Courtès (GNU Guix and GNU Guile developer) and Andy Wingo (GNU Guile developer). They are "Bastards" according to what zapper calls a "very reputable" source, which gives no reason for the insult. None of them relates to Red Hat: sorry.
If anyone's been paying attention, Courtès and Wingo are part of the coup d'état to storm the castle and take over the GNU Project while ousting RMS.
> If anyone's been paying attention, Courtès and Wingo are part of the coup d'état to storm the castle and take over the GNU Project while ousting RMS.
Ahh. That makes them sound like sad little pathetic people who only derive meaning from their lives by despoiling the work of others. Not good.
I hope that the FSF and GNU project don't have to be forked once all this treachery business is over with.
RMS is still Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project. And he is not at odd with the FSF.
> RMS is still Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project. And he is not at odd with the FSF.
Excellent news!
Yes, and he will remain as such. In order to frustrate efforts any efforts to commandeer important things like the website, administrative access to gnu.org is currently restricted to 3 people: RMS, myself, and one other person. Because of this I expect this attempt to storm the castle will ultimately fail. They revealed their hand too soon. This provided time to secure critical project infrastructure away from them.
> In order to frustrate efforts any efforts to commandeer important things like the website, administrative access to gnu.org is currently restricted to 3 people: RMS, myself, and one other person.
Glad to know you are safeguarding things!
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On 2/29/20 6:47 PM, name at domain wrote:
> Yes, and he will remain as such. In order to frustrate efforts any
> efforts to commandeer important things like the website, administrative
> access to gnu.org is currently restricted to 3 people: RMS, myself, and
> one other person. Because of this I expect this attempt to storm the
> castle will ultimately fail. They revealed their hand too soon. This
> provided time to secure critical project infrastructure away from them.
Your general levelheadedness and all the important work you do still has
me in awe.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
I am a member!
On 2/29/20 5:27 PM, name at domain wrote:
> If anyone's been paying attention, Courtès and Wingo are part of the
> coup d'état to storm the castle and take over the GNU Project while
> ousting RMS.
Thank you for the simple and clear response. This is what I wanted to
know. I have not been following the news lately, and I only remember
seeing their names on the anti-RMS manifesto on the Guix blog.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
I never said they were bastards, I said they were evil, (that's what i meant by saying they were like a demon.)
Also, I don't think you are sorry. I also, don't get why you are always so hateful, you remind me of the same people who deny climate change.
Open your mind man why would corporations want to support freedom?
Redhat for instances is non-free even more so then fedora, centos and gentoo. So yeah, I think you are closed-minded.
I am sure systemd has useful stuff for developers, but for the average user, openrc is way better. I have used openrc alot and it works very efficiently and its easy.
Debian was right not to use sysvinit by itself, but it shouldve looked more closely at openrc. Sad but true.
As for techrights being reputable, I don't think you can say they aren't without being closed-minded.
Its like how some people say cnn and msnbc are fake news more often then not about their truth about trump being a dangerous individual who breaks the law constantly. No, they may have weaknesses, but about trump they are absolutely telling the truth.
So yeah, the truth is more complex than that.
I never said they were bastards
I never wrote you did. Techrights did.
Also, I don't think you are sorry.
I am sorry for you: like Techrights, you visibly have a hard time writing about any computing topic without mentioning Red Hat, systemd, etc. Even when it is completely out of topic. The message you have just written is one more example of that.
Open your mind man why would corporations want to support freedom?
That also has little to do with the topic (the FSF). I will answer that one anyway.
Software companies, like all other companies, want to make money. Open your eyes (it is useful to see the "truth"): for many years, the free software market (businesses usually talk about the "open source market") has been among the most thriving segments of the software industry. Its current annual growth exceeds 9% (far more than the rest of the industry). See https://cnll.fr/media/2019_CNLL-Syntec-Systematic-Open-Source-Study.pdf for a recent study, which focuses on France (I am French) but gives as well worldwide numbers (slides 6 and 7). Slide 20 reports on answers to the question "What are your motivations for using Open Source in your company?". The most common answers actually deal with freedom. The three take-away messages on that slide are:
* Open Source facilitates customization and specific development which organizations need to improve their customers’ experience. Independence remains a key criterion.
* In the 2017 study, cost reduction was the first driver for using Open Source. In 2019, the main drivers are customization and technological independence.
* We are currently seeing an increase in the reliability and security offered by Open Source.
As for techrights being reputable, I don't think you can say they aren't without being closed-minded.
I maintain my position: a source that propagates conspiracy theories (again: where are the evidences that the FSF "takes bribes", "is 'pwned' by corporations" and "lying"?) and whose main arguments are insults ("bastards", "idiots", "scumbag", etc.) is not reputable.
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On 2/29/20 12:15 PM, name at domain wrote:
>> Btw, the title of this thread seems, confusing, who is cortes and wingo?
>
> I have no idea.
Ludovic Cortes and Andy Wingo. The article speaks of them. Ludovic
Cortes is the leader of GNU Guix. I do not know what Andy Wingo does,
but I think he is or was on the board of directors of the FSF.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
I am a member!
On 2/27/20 6:38 PM, name at domain wrote:
> For one thing, redhat's systemd, dbus, pulseaudio, networkmanager and
> their libraries are meant to restrict freedom.
>
> how you may wonder? By convincing other software creators to adopt their
> software even knowing it will break backwards compatibility with rival
> software.
In a world where software comes from different places and there are no
standards, it is perfectly natural and acceptable for software to break
other software. It is how the world works. With free software, we can
make necessary changes to make software talk to each other properly.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
Just to be clear, even if thats how the world works, that doesn't mean we need to feed that method of how things work. I myself detest bloatware. Sorry, but redhat for me falls into that category.
That being said, I apologize if I was contentious that day. I just don't think such a thing like that is right.
Aka, breaking backwards compatibility on purpose and forcing into adoption, etc...
I just don't think such a thing like that is right. Aka, breaking backwards compatibility on purpose and forcing into adoption, etc...
That is an excellent piece of news. Does that mean it is finally the end of the stream of messages on your part that was saying just that?
I would like it if you would be more civil, from reading that, I feel your scoffing. It's fine to disagree, but to hate constantly is not okay.
This is what divides the free software community.
You say fake news about my previous quote and refer to my stuff as so called "conspiracy theories"
But how do you know there isn't truth to them? No one has ever auditted systemd's entire code base because it keeps evolving. So its possible some non-free stuff gets into it.
Btw, never say fake news if possible, thats a russian propaganda tool to prevent stuff from getting done and not allowing things to change for the better.
Why do you think trump says that whenever someone points out something he does wrong?
It's fine to disagree, but to hate constantly is not okay. This is what divides the free software community.
Indeed. All those haters who spend most of their free times writing that Red Hat is the demon, that Mozilla is evil, that whole programming languages (Java, Rust, etc.) are crap, who make groundless accusations about "non-free stuff" in systemd, about backdoors in openpilot, about the FSF being corrupt, ...
But how do you know there isn't truth to them?
I have already replied in https://trisquel.info/forum/cort%C3%A8s-wingo#comment-147076 : "the accusation has the burden of the proof". Sure, I cannot prove that the FSF is not corrupt. Nobody can. In the same way, I cannot prove that there is no monster in the Loch Ness. Or I cannot prove that officials of the Democratic Party are not having sex with children in a pizzeria. That does not make any of those claims "truths". Those who pretend such things exist are those who are to provide convincing evidences. Demanding such evidences before believing in the claims is not being closed-minded. It is being rationale.
Just going to clarify, your tone of your text that you write usually seems a bit, angry. Like I am bothering you.
https://ihatesystemd.com/good/#content
https://ihatesystemd.com/bad/#content
https://ihatesystemd.com/ugly/#content
I am only replying once more for now... how do you know redhat isnt putting non-free stuff into systemd secretly, its never been audited even once. Aren't you curious if its as good as you think it is, don't you think it should be auditted?
By the way, I did say one thing I disagree with on the article, a libre BSD is a good choice for Hyperbola. Meaning techrights was wrong that escaping linux for Hyperbola was not the right move.
The fsf isn't corrupt, its just misguided sometimes for that reason I mentioned, aka freedom restricting free licensed software. You cannot deny that it isn't possible for even AGPL3 licensed software to be used this way. Yes it would be hard, but its still possible.
By the way, despite our huge differences of thinking, this made me smile:
"Or I cannot prove that officials of the Democratic Party are not having sex with children in a pizzeria. That does not make any of those claims"
This myth made me laugh like a maniac when i heard it. This sounded like such an obvious lie. :P
Yes, i suppose you would see what I say as hateful, and maybe sometimes it is, but yeah, I don't think you can say I am the only one. sometimes you come across as pissed off too.
Anyways just wanted to clarify one other thing though,
If you read through the previous article, you would have agreed with some of it.
Food for thought by the way:
http://techrights.org/2020/03/08/companies-funded-osi/
Up to you, if you wish to read this one, or any, for that matter, but I do have to say, even if you disagree on redhat or w/e
No source is wrong 100% of the time. Not yet anyways...
Even Donald Jackass Trump. ;P
I am only replying once more for now... how do you know redhat isnt putting non-free stuff into systemd secretly
Once more:
- Red Hat and systemd (and the OSI and ...) are not the topic of this thread (the FSF);
- The accusation has the burden of the proof, not the other way around;
- systemd's source code is not secret: your accusation is groundless until you show where the "non-free stuff" is in https://github.com/systemd/systemd
Aren't you curious if its as good as you think it is, don't you think it should be auditted?
Go ahead. Until you or somebody else find something, your accusations are groundless.
No source is wrong 100% of the time.
A "very reputable" source is not defined as one that is not "wrong 100% of the time". In my opinion, those who want to be well informed had better forget about Techrights, although it is not "wrong 100% of the time".
Well, at least you acknowledge techrights is not always wrong.
as for the audit thing, keep in mind, the more lines of code, the more complex the code, the harder it is to find bugs,
and as we know, security by obscurity doesn't work. Look at microsoft, :P
Meh, i suppose this topic is getting old. But yeah, I would at least like someone to audit systemd before I will trust it.
If not, I will avoid it. I am sure you won't, but it does puzzle me.
I am thinking this is a stalemate so I will speak no more in this thread.
"But you have to hand it to them — the tricks still work. I mean, some idiot Ubuntu fan is actually making the argument on his tech blog that we need an App-Store-like App Store with non-free applications to make GNU/Linux “for everyone.” Sure, I’ve heard this nonsense for years — but he’s talking about the future design of Elementary OS. Brilliant."
Have to give it to him, some of the points are valid though.
Edit:
"There’s already a class of distros like this — called “Appliance-like distros” in the Librethreat Database. Chrome OS, Endless OS, Android, plus now Elementary OS. They certainly do look good. The most efficient way to make people line up to eat a turd, after all, is to present it as Haute cuisine."
This one actually made me laugh out loud.
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On 2/24/20 4:07 PM, name at domain wrote:
> "But you have to hand it to them — the tricks still work. I mean, some
> idiot Ubuntu fan is actually making the argument on his tech blog that
> we need an App-Store-like App Store with non-free applications to make
> GNU/Linux “for everyone.” Sure, I’ve heard this nonsense for years — but
> he’s talking about the future design of Elementary OS. Brilliant."
>
> Have to give it to him, some of the points are valid though.
I see nothing wrong with making a nice app store. GNU/Linux INVENTED
the app store, and Apple only played catchup in the 2000s, just putting
a pretty UI over it.
We have the right to take back what was ours, and put a pleasing UI over
it. We invented the app store, and we should show them that what they
stole from the free world is but a pale imitation.
--
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
(816) 892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh
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