long-term sustainability of Trisquel -- what if we lose core developers?
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How does the Trisquel project guarantee the long-term sustainability of the project? I've check the developers' mailing list from Oct. 2013 to Nov. 2014 and found out that only 7 users have contributed patches (Ruben has write access to the repo. (Only the creators of subjects on the mailing list counted not replies.)
+Legimet 12
+Andrew 'Leny' Lindley 5
+mejiko 2
+Damien Zammit 1
+Michał Masłowski 1
+Massimo Pucci 1
+isleofmax 1
It mean we have only 3 contributors who contributed more than once. What if we lose them? Why does Ruben do everything by himself? Can't anyone help him?
In my opinion, what this project lacks is 'collaboration of developers'. This project does not have a public system for inviting newcomers to commit code and time. This project is great but it advances only in a monopolistic manner and strangers are not welcome. Maybe a mentoring program can solve this issue in long term. We need a systematic approach to invite as much users as possible to the party and make them be part of it.
My solution:
1. we can create a mailing list, for instance devel-newcomers, where newcomers can ask **stupid questions** about ways they can participate and seek help.
2. Some developers volunteer for working with new developers on devel-newcomers
3. Ruben gradually give more power to long-term and trusted contributors like Legimet, Leny, Jason, etc.
4. feedback, feedback, and feedback. It can glue the new contributors to the project and signal them that their idea are important.
and at last, I wish great success for Trisquel.
These links may be beneficial:
https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove
http://mentors.debian.net/sponsors
"3. Ruben gradually give more power to long-term and trusted contributors like Legimet, Leny, Jason, etc."
As far as i know, this is not wanted. The idea is that trisquel remains rubens project (correct me if i'm wrong though).
However, i agree with your criticism.
Having only a few developers is normal. Among free/libre software projects, most only have a single developer.[1]
Also, Trisquel isn't doing everything from scratch like Debian is. It's downstream from Ubuntu, which is downstream from Debian. So it benefits from all the work done by the Debian developers as well as Canonical.
There's nothing to worry about. Trisquel is fine. It would benefit from donations and contributions, though, so if you're inclined to do either, go ahead.
[1] http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/when-free-software-isnt-better-talk
"There's nothing to worry about. Trisquel is fine. It would benefit from donations and contributions, though, so if you're inclined to do either, go ahead."
I live in Iran, and because of the U.S. Sanctions ( ITAR, etc.), transfer of money is not possible so I try to contribute code.
I tried to write a patch and posted it on developers mailing list, but after four days it's neither been rejected nor accepted to be posted to the mailing list. It made me feel that something's fishy here.
I am neither nagging about the Trisquel project nor overlooking the efforts have been put into producing this quality product. I'm saying that lots of businesses should be done by trusted community members. The more we trust the community, the more Ruben would have time to work on more important aspects and produce a better quality Trisquel.
Have you subscribed to the list before posting the patch? In my
experience mails rarely leave moderation queues, while mails from
subscribed users are usually accepted without moderation.
I believe only Ruben can significantly improve the current development
process. The new GitLab instance is a part of work being done to help
us collaborate. My current policy is to wait until he announces some
changes.
We have development mailing list and IRC channel (which used to have
development meetings): there are places where you can ask newcomer
questions which other contributors can ask. I think the low number of
patches results from people expecting to be ignored, focusing on other
projects or not being interested in contributing.
Perhaps it should be rephrased "what if we lose the developer?":)
Should that ever happen I hope the old images and repos will still lie in a repo somewhere.
"Have you subscribed to the list before posting the patch?"
No I haven't.
Thank you, akfoss, for bringing this important topic up again. It's very sad that there isn't any official comment from Ruben about the current situation. How could those issues be resolved in the near future?
To expand on what @Michał Masłowski said. The Developer Meetings[1] which were a consequence of some mid-2012 work[2] by @Chris and others were a response to similar discussions 2.5 years ago and the matter is in hand with the new contribution / community system being part of the response. (Yes it really does take that long to develop/modify and bring online a significant new system).
The need to join trisquel-devel so patches can be accepted is clearly documented in the package helpers page[3].
As I've said elsewhere on the forum in the past, to me, allowing for the fact he his extremely busy and massively overcommitted, Rubén's communication style seems to be simply be a very hard pressed flavour of what is documented of geek subculture by e.g. ESR's essays (although beware their quality ain't great, see [4] and mind the 'hacker' misnomer). So quidam's comms are not good by non-geek standards but are an understandable and rational response to the situation within the context of the subculture.
I think the linked reading is about all you need to have an informed discussion.
Leny
[1] https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/developer-meetings
[2] https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/proposed-policies-procedures-solutions
[3] https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/package-helpers
[4] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
After finishing work on the release, and renewing the website, the next big project is to make it easier to contribute. One thing I just finished doing is cleaning up the remaining pieces of the website that required manual help to get translated, so now it should be easier to add new languages and to maintain them. I'll write to the translators mailing list about this.
Aklis and me (mostly him) have been working on setting a new development infrastructure, composed of two pieces:
* Gitlab: https://devel.trisquel.info
A git code management system similar to github in features, but fully free and under our control. Users will be able to clone a project, apply and track changes, and request them to be reviewed and merged into the production branch. By now we will only allow registration by request to the trisquel-devel list, at least while the platform and workflow gets tested.
* Jenkins
A continuous integration system that would build new packages automatically when there are new versions of a helper in the gitlab production branch, or when there is an update from upstream requiring a package to be recompiled.
This two pieces should provide a much simpler way for developers to join.
User flares and permissions:
We are going to use the Drupal user profiles to manage the contributor structure of the project, extending what we already have by marking users with different flags: Member, Translator, Developer, Documenter... each one linking to a page explaining the role and how to request it.
---
Some replies:
> The idea is that trisquel remains rubens project
I have no plans of reducing my involvement on the project, but as long as it is considered "my project" I'm doing something wrong. This needs to be a community effort, regardless of how many hours I personally invest in it.
> This project does not have a public system for inviting newcomers
True. We need to make the "how to help" pages in the wiki more prominent and straightforward. There are wrong perceptions from newcomers on what does a distro do, so we constantly get people saying "I'm a $language developer, how can I help?" or "I want to translate the programs in Trisquel". We don't develop, we adapt. And we only translate our own website. This needs to be clearly stated, with links to direct those volunteers to upstream projects. We also need to list the tasks we *do* perform in clear way, so people can join those efforts easily.
> I tried to write a patch and posted it on developers mailing list, but after four days it's neither been rejected nor accepted to be posted to the mailing list. It made me feel that something's fishy here.
I apologize for that. This is one of the reasons we are changing the workflow and implementing gitlab/jenkins: it makes it things like this hard to miss. Also, it would allow for more than one person to review and approve code. Right now this contributions depend on me going through the lists and the issues manually, and I get way too much email.
> The Developer Meetings[...]
We should restart those ASAP. I'm going out for a week, but I think that after it we should start using this new tools and workflow, something that should start with a developer meeting. I'll follow up when I'm back.
>So quidam's comms are not good by non-geek standards
Quite true... I don't follow the forums too much. People sometimes point me to interesting posts like this one. The fastest way to contact me is usually the #trisquel channel in freenode.
Thank you very much for your work and for this feedback. It clarifies a lot.
quidam said:
the next big project is to make it easier to contribute..
You meant to say: to develop and attract more donate money!
Well MR. Hear me out! You want more donations? I understand you perfectly.
BUT!
Maybe, if you focus in developing and fixing efficiently all the bugs that are plaguing the already release of Trisquel 7, then maybe, your "donations will increase double fold", but If you launch a mediocre release, is going to bite you back at the long run.
So good luck!
Respectfully that is my opinion.
I am a translator!
jodiendo - don't take this negatively. I don't mean to be rude. I appreciate reading you posts in the troll hole but I really don't appreciate when you criticize Trisquel without explaining what bugs you are talking about. I am not a gnulinux expert nor am I a programer. I do some basic stuff and read a lot about gnulinux. I used several distros and I have to say - Trisquel 7 on my hardware is rock solid stable fast and nice looking - it is in my humble opinion the best distro I've tried so far..
So please can you be so kind as to list the bugs you are refering to?
SuperTramp83
None taken, you have a point.
Here is a list of common bugs that I encounter.
I did tried trisquel 7 in dualboot before, the machine I was uisng had already trisquel 6, most parts as video card, WIFI are hardware purchase from thinkpenguin store working flawless on my 1-5.
The problems, that I encounter was a few nasty one's, the VIDEO was choppy, the sound was non existent and when trying to connect to the Lan did not recognized the MOTHER BOARD nickcard. That includes the WIFI.
The version of Trisquel 7, that I downloaded, was the experimental one. For that reason, I won't even get close to trisquel 7, until the bugs are squash. and exterminated.
Another issue was on trisquel 6 updates, I did not like the "DEVELOPER TOTALIRISM AND HIS DEFINITION OF FREE" how the user should use "A-BROWSER."
I should be the one user deciding, what I want! Specially, when it comes to how; should "enhance and secure my browsing experience."
I believe the user, should have the tools and means of information PUBLICLY AVAILABLE TO BE read at ANYTIME, not embedded onto the browser, which is controlled by the developer in some dark, HUMID AND mystical SPANIARD WINE cellar"
Lucky for me, some friends show me, how to navigate around that type and kind of "browsing totalirism experience." My friends indicated that some developers suffer from lack of "brain equilibrium."
Remenber, that trisquel was first official distro, ever used. Since then I have grown into it and yes, I'm piss at that crazy Don Quijote conquistador attitude.
respectfully, This is just my opinion.
P.S.
Did I post it anything? Yes I did, only once..not related to Trisquel 7 but "A-BROWSER in Trisquel 6.
Here is the Link: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/abrowser-3203-extensions
Well, we're free to use debootstrap/netinstall to perform an installation (i.e. without browsers until you install one) - and you can install Icecat/Midori/Epiphany/links/etc and/or remove Abrowser even from a LiveDV/CD installation so I don't see any kind of freedom breached to begin with browser-wise.
Quidam gives you what he think is best but you can change it (or just use debootstrap) and he won't have a right to stop you from doing it.
And if the Abrowser part of your comment is about not switching to IceCat, then what makes switching to IceCat freeer than staying with Abrowser anyway?
And considering how perfectly fine Trisquel 7 is running here I'm pretty sue any bugs encountered are from upstream (Ubuntu, Debian, or even beyond).
Do you have a guide or documentation for this recommendation you are suggesting?
Respectfully
What reccomendation? I think most of the post was about personal experiences and opinions?
Except maybe debootstrap: https://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap (the "subdirectory" referred to in the page can be a lot of things, including a directory to which another partition is mounted, which is how debootstrap can be used to install an (albeit kernelless) installation of Debian (and distros based on it & Ubuntu), which can then be chrooted into and have packages installed from there (i.e. a kernel).
Respectfully as well :)
>Trisquel 7 on my hardware is rock solid stable fast and nice looking
for me it's the same
I do want to chime in and say that I, too, have few problems. I also think the number of problems I have is fewer than the number of problems I had with Trisquel 6. The problems I do have are with gedit[1] and the sound recorder app;[2] I have no hardware compatibilities or anything like that.
I also want to note that all of the hardware compatibility problems posted on the forum have been with AMD/ATI GPUs, which have long been known to be a terrible choice for libre systems. Maybe it's a problem specific to Trisquel, but it seems to me very likely that upstream Linux developers simply neglected to keep support for using these GPUs without the proprietary firmware blobs working properly. If you want to check if it's because of a kernel update, you can install linux-generic-lts-trusty on a Trisquel 6 system where you aren't having the problem and see if you get the same problem as in Trisquel 7 (I don't have an affected system, so I can't test it myself).
[1] gedit sometimes crashes, more so if automatic saving is enabled. I've solved this by switching to another text editor for now.
[2] Sound Recorder often, but not always, locks up instead of starting to record when I hit the "record" button. When this happens, I just force-quit it and try again. But I could also easily use some other program, like Audacity, to record sounds.
.
It is funny, Im still using trisquel 6.....I was going to erase it from all my pc;s but I'm holding back, until I finish building my new I-5 desktop, then I will install this version 7 thank you
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