LibreBox small computer
- Anmelden oder Registrieren um Kommentare zu schreiben
I am a member!
Hi,
Ubuntu Mate is receiving some buzz lately for their hardware deal with
Portugal based hardware manufacturer LibreTrend. Though it's not their
first deal one thing is remarkable: The box seems to be usable
completely by free software. Customers can even select Trisquel be
preinstalled!
http://www.libretrend.com/en/hardware
What do you guys think? Should Trisquel eventually promote the shop
and/or even try to get a hardware deal like that?
vinz.
The guy who founded Libretrend made a post about it last year: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/libretrend-my-vision-free-software
Thank you for sharing the link :)
Though I think this is great that another provider has been added who will preload Trisquel, it does not seems functionally different from what is provided by Thinkpenguin or what you could build at home with off the shelf parts. Notably the device doesn't use Libreboot which would be the only thing it could offer to be different in the desktop space.
As for supporting it I don't see why not from a global sense. At the same time I will be unlikely to buy a unit due to the price and limited options on the processor. For prepackaged Thinkpenguin is still a better option. Of course I am far more likely to build from scratch or re-purpose a previously used system.
Our goal is to provide Free Software and Hardware. We have a long road until we can finally provide a fully 100% Libre computer, but all our software is Free Software only, we worked on a Coreboot version as a start before trying a truly free BIOS, but it didn't work well for a lot of reasons (lack of time, money and knowledge). So, yes we are trying our best but it isn't always as we want it to be :)
I realize this is true and that their are real barriers to establishing a true Libre product that is not a refurbished unit, but is instead a brand new unit. I don't challenge this one bit. I also realize that opportunities like those with Ubuntu-Mate from a business sense have to be seized on.
At the same time I have a real problem with companies misusing words that have a very specific meaning in a way that communicates to those who do not yet understand the terminology that those words mean something different than they do in reality.
The word "Libre" means completely free, not free in the future, free right this minute. The "Librebox" is not Libre, it incorrectly uses the term. As such it causes confusion with people new to the Libre movement. Further on the website the Trisquel distro shares billing with multiple non-free systems, yet the distinction is never made. For example one could easily surmise from visiting the site that Firefox OS, Ubuntu-Mate, and Jolla are free software when none of them are. Indeed, one does not even find out that the "Librebox", even with Trisquel uses a non-free bootloader until they get to the order page.
I share your excitement for freedom, free software,and the libre movement. At the same time you need to take a hard look at your sales pitch and branding. Right now you run the risk of alienating those who would love to support you.
Take for example Think Penguin. They are very careful with their branding and do a much better job spelling out what is and is not libre. Like your company they preload Trisquel and other non-free distros. I have no issue with this and have been a repeat customer of theirs. At the same time if they started using terms like "free software" and "Libre" as liberally as your company does I'd probably stop buying from them.
Even the company name is problematic. Firstly it doesn't reflect most of what your company even does currently, but rather what it aspires to. The first thing one sees when going to the page is "LibreTrend: Power to Embrace Freedom" followed immediately by "We have the pleasure to announce our new partnership with Ubuntu-mate". Ubuntu-mate isn't libre, further Trisquel appears no where on the page and is the only libre product you carry.
I hope this clearly spells out why folks in this thread have been less than supportive of your efforts, some even being hostile to it. A similar problem happened with Purism and it has resulted in this community becoming very hostile to the product because many of its claims seem disingenuous if not deliberate lies to sell units. I take the tact with Libretrend that its a very well meaning group of people that haven't really thought things out as opportunities have shifted priorities. I hope you take this comment as feedback on how to improve your companies status with the community and not end up like Purism.
Before anything thank you for this honest and complete message.
I understand what you mean, but at the same time I have some problems trying to solve what for me wasn't a problem until I saw all those comments. We dedicate to Free Software but for now we can't propose fully free hardware (only if we started selling old computers like the x200). This is quite a problem, because all our branding was based on the Free Software values, and yes this partnership doesn't go well with our believes. As for the LibreBox, I can try to tell how many times I want that it comes from the junction of the LibreTrend name and the term Box, and yet you'll still be completely right.
We can't change our branding, and we can't change the name of our products, but we can make it more clear that one product/software etc.. is no Free Software, and this is exactly what we will do. In the next days I'll make some important changes on the website in order to reflect that question, and I'll make it more clear what is Free Software, what isn't and what is the importance of Free Software.
Once again, I take every comment, positive or negative, very seriously because not only this can and will affect my own business, but it also will affect the way LibreTrend works. How can we work only for Free Software and still be confusing people ? That would be a huge nonsense for our business and I sincerely didn't see that problem that way.
Once again thank you for your feedback!
I am a translator!
Correct me if I'm wrong. How can a computer that has proprietary BIOS and firmware (to my knowledge) be libre? This reminds me of that other scam, the Purism Librem..
Respectfully..
LibreTrend doesn't claim to be "wholly libre" like Purism.
LibreTrend only claims that the LibreBox is free software friendly (Like TP), which is true.
So it isn't free as "only run free software by default, including BIOS and all firmware", but "works with a fully free SO". Which isn't nothing new, but is good to have more computers that work without issues with a completely free operating system. Still, the name can drive people to confusion. Those who aren't aware of what "free hardware" truly mean could start recommending this as libre hardware, which is a lie.
I am a member!
Am 7. Juli 2015 03:03:23 MESZ, schrieb name at domain:
>Those who aren't aware of what "free hardware" truly mean could start
>recommending this
>as libre hardware, which is a lie.
I have deep doubts that someone not knowing the real sense of "free hardware" but recommending something as it's "libre". ;)
Nevertheless: yes, the name is a bit misleading.
But my thoughts were going in a different direction. Ubuntu Mate is a) generating a lot of buzz and b) offering a small device for a reasonable price preloaded with their system. These are useful things to attract new users, especially with an easy to use operating system.
So why not step up, go that way too and show that all this is possible with a completely free OS too?
vinz.
I am a translator!
well said danieru and vinzv. And also I really don't like those companies (like this one and purism) that profit from terms like "free" or "libre" giving people the mere illusion of freedom.
I found it immoral. An immoral way of doing business.
My laptop is as "libre" as any of these laptops they sell. All I had to do was switch the wifi adapter with and Atheros one that doesn't require non-free firmware: cost - 10 dollars ; time/effort - 3 minutes ..
I am a member!
Lucky you. I had the hard way of going through hours of tweaking thanks to Lenovo's blacklist "feature". So imho pre-building PCs with libre parts ain't immoral. It's a way for people not having the skills and knowledge to get at least a mostly libre computer. By saying that being immoral you are claiming that offering people a way to freedom is immoral. I find that a bit disturbing.
What else I find disturbing is this discussion, especially calling the product "scam" and such. Did any of you guys shouting hard words even read the questions answered in this thread?
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/libretrend-my-vision-free-software
Am 7. Juli 2015 13:11:05 MESZ, schrieb name at domain:
>well said danieru. And also I really don't like those companies (like
>this
>one and purism) that profit from terms like "free" or "libre" giving
>people
>the mere illusion of freedom.
>I found it immoral. An immoral way of doing business.
>My laptop is as "libre" as any of these laptops they sell. All I had to
>do
>was switch the wifi adapter with and Atheros one that doesn't require
>non-free firmware: cost - 10 dollars ; time/effort - 3 minutes ..
I understand the misunderstanding, but as said in a earlier comment it's a mix of our brand name (LibreTrend) and what the computer actually is from the outside (a Box). This is why it's called the LibreBox. If our brand name would be SuperTrend it would be the SuperBox :)
Just because it isn't as free as Gluglug's gear doesn't mean it's a 'scam'. It
is advertised as a computer system that will work with a free OS. It does this.
I see no scam.
Sure, it would be nice if there were more Gluglug-likes around, but this is a
step in the right direction. We need more fully free OSes running in the first
place.
I am a translator!
The first high-end laptop that respects your privacy, security, and freedom. YEAH, RIGHT..
A computer that has a proprietary BIOS and firmware but claims to be The first high-end laptop that respects your privacy, security, and freedom. is a SCAM!
They make money from selling laptops that are no more "librem" that any laptop with an intel integrated graphics card and an Atheros wifi adapter that doesn't require non-free firmware. And they call it librem, and claim that their laptops are The first high-end laptop that respects your privacy, security, and freedom.
Now if that is not a scam, I don't know what is..
> The first high-end laptop that respects your privacy, security, and freedom.
Nowhere on the LibreTrend hardware portal does it actually state this. Nowhere
on their website could I actually find this tagline. If this is actually a
slogan used by LibreTrend, and you can show me where you found this, I will
join you in condemning it as bullshit.
> librem
I wasn't talking about the Purism Librem. I said that you were too quick to
condemn the LibreBox as a scam. They (to my knowledge) do not advertise
themselves as the aforementioned. They call the LibreBox a 'Free
Software-friendly' machine, which it is- just as much as Thinkpenguin. Nowhere
do they actually state that the LibreBox has 100% free software (although I
agree this is implied). They have not lied. I see no scam.
I don't like the project either, especially their recent deal with Ubuntu MATE.
This is misleading, and creates the impression that Ubuntu is a free operating
system. But Thinkpenguin offer the installation of non-free OSes as well, and,
though not as pernicious because at least there is choice, this has the same
potential to mislead. Furthermore, this does not contradict any of what
LibreTrend market the LibreBox as: a free OS compatible computer.
I am a translator!
yes. I was talking about Purism Librem. I say Librem is a scam. Not this LibreTrend thing. I only said that this Libretrand reminded me of that other thing (the other thing is a scam - Purism librem).
Saying "this laptop is free software friendly" is ok. Impling that it contains 100% free software is NOT ok.
What I really don't like is the Librem (purism) and I repeat - librem is a scam.
You may find this interesting: http://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2015/02/23/the-truth-about-purism-why-librem-is-not-the-same-as-libre/
That being said, I think both are a bad thing. There are very few people in the world that care about free software and even fewer are those who care about computers running with only free software (BIOS and firmware included).
It is a bad thing, a very bad thing if those very few give their money to these pseudo-free projects. The people who care about freedom should financially support gluglug and those companies that actually do something to free the hardware (the libreboot project for instance).
People shall NOT give money to those who promise nonsense (read the article I linked above about the librem) or those who imply their computers contain only feee software, while that is absolutely not true..
You are actually right. But our main goal is and always was Free Software. When we created the Librebox we created it with Trisquel in mind, but it just didn't catch up. We made some announcements and even post a topic on Trisquel which received a lot of comments and views but nothing more, the project just stagnated.
Then there was the Ubuntu MATE contact which helped us boost like crazy (at least in terms of public acknowledge) and now almost everyone is talking about us and the fact that we deliver a Free Software Friendly machine.
I talk personally with the person behind the Ubuntu MATE project, he knows that internally at LibreTrend we only use Trisquel Gnu/Linux, and he knows that for us allowing Ubuntu MATE was something which we hadn't planed at all. But yet we found a deal, and everything work great. The result ? More and more people are talking about Free Software and the importance of it, and we didn't loose our purpose (and never will).
Yes, it's not ideal, but it worked, and for us it's really wonderful, mostly because now we can continue our work on the LibreBox 2 (which will release in Mid-2016) which will be, in my opinion, a revolutionary product dedicated to Free Software.
LibreTrend website mentions that it uses BIOS so they are not lying to us.
GlugGlug machines aren't hard to make, mostly because the bios is already made and it runs on hardware which can be found for quite cheap on ebay (for example). The real challenge is making a new product with relatively new hardware running that same BIOS, and unfortunately there is a spiral (in my opinion) where :
- Producers create a product and don't liberate their bios so they ship it with a proprietary one
- Small developers solve the problem on that device because they can't mass produce something new
- Others try to mass produce but don't have the financial support
- Since they don't do something fully freed people just keep buying the first one
I really believe that this can be done, and done well. Maybe by us, maybe by ThinkPenguin or maybe by someone new who would arrive soon, we don't know. Until then, unfortunately, we have to depend on what the market gives us.
Our name is LibreTrend because we dedicate to Free Software and Hardware, our first computer has a name which is a mixture of our brand name (LibreTrend) and what it is on the outside (a Box), this is why it's called the LibreBox. For now the LibreBox is a small computer with a Free Software Friendly hardware, nowhere on the website we tell that the computer is fully free and even on the shop page you have a normal size line saying that we use a Standard BIOS. All the rest of the hardware has been selected to work without the need for proprietary drivers or firmwares.
I remember him saying that he simply does not know how to switch from BIOS to Libreboot. (Even I don't!) If some of us can help him, we will get it to run Libreboot.
Frankly, I doubt you will. Coreboot/Libreboot supports a really limited set of
devices, basically Thinkpads/MacBooks and things.
I'm sure that if the LibreBox did support Libreboot, they'd be offering it
already. There's a (somewhat niche) market for that sort of thing.
Unfortunately we didn't had a lot of luck trying to create a Libre (or partially Libre) bios for the LibreBox, so we had to put that idea in standby for now. But it is one of our main goals.
- Anmelden oder Registrieren um Kommentare zu schreiben