Any plans to dump systemd ?

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Patrick Mc(avery
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Hi Everyone

I have been using Trisquel since version 5. I have been very-very happy
with the project. However I moved to Salix recently. The Slackware
universe has not and will not adopt systemd. The FSF is not upset about
systemd because it's free software. There might not be moral reasons to
hate it but there are many technical ones.

Does anyone know if Trisquel 8 will have systemd?

The Salix folks are nice too but there are some things about Salix that
are starting to worry me. They have flash in the repo and it's not
marked notn-free. There is no warning for novice users and there really
should be. The full XFCE install comes with flash already installed.
It's the XFCE people doing this not the Salix people but they are
including it without warning too.

I wish I could find a distro that had the attention to detail and polish
that Trisquel has while also maintaining a very conservative approach. I
want to stay as pure unix as possible, or as possible as this can be
with Linux which is not pure unix either. However I also want to use a
distro that I can send to customers without concerns about non-free
software. The Trisquel developers are highly trustworthy and have done a
really good job of protecting us.

I am torn. Please advise.

-Patrick

mason

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It seems that Trisquel does not generally remove or replace anything from Ubuntu unless it is proprietary or facilitates installing proprietary software. Since systemd is free software, it will probably be present in Trisquel as long as it is present in Ubuntu, starting with Trisquel 8.

If that's a deal-breaker for you, you can either stick with Trisquel 7 for the duration it is supported (until March 2019, I think) or switch to a different freedom-respecting distro that does not use systemd. Some options include Hyperbola, Parabola (offers both systemd and OpenRC ISOs), GuixSD (still in beta), and Devuan (optionally free like Debian). It sounds like Salix is not a freedom-respecting distro. I'd avoid it.

Patrick Mc(avery
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Hi Mason

This is very helpful. I feel silly now but I thought that Trisquel has
already made the switch to systemd. If I can buy myself another year to
think this over, why not. I will re-install Trisquel and remain at 7 for
as long as I can. In a years time there might also be an easy path to
patch distros to remove systemd.

Thanks very much

gd_scania
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I need to here remind Patrick once if you dnt want systemd you need to instead install Parabola, Devuan, Hyperbola, which I need to admit that systemd is quite complicated to make YOUR full control (opposed to under GPL), with Parabola, Devuan, Hyperbola you will have a simple and modern init system named OpenRC under FreeBSD license from nonfree Gentoo. :)
Remember to remove every systemd deps using Parabola, I have installed 2 Parabola systems both are using OpenRC. :)
If you’ve decided to stay at PureOS and Trisquel just ask systemd people for your difficulities within systemd. Fedora people are quite friendly to this. :)

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

Maybe, rather than rejecting systemd, you should ask systemd users for help on how to do the things you haven't figured out. To my knowledge, systemd includes the most advanced and efficient init system out there, and that's why the vast majority of distros have chosen to use it.

CalmStorm

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Not everyone "Rejects systemd" as you say, some just don't want it while others are just frustrated that they have trouble escaping it.

Yes there are people who are harsh on it, but the reverse is also true. Systemd people sometimes cannot stand people critcizing it. whether they support it, or are developing it. Things aren't always black and white man.

aloniv

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Hyperbola is the closest you will find to updated Trisquel without systemd - it is based on Arch (with Debian patches) without being a rolling release, so packages will usually only receive security updates and long term versions are preferred (e.g. a libre version of Iceweasel ESR as opposed to Abrowser).

CalmStorm

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This I agree with 100% Hyperbola is although a bit strange, the best way forward if you want to recieve updates regularly without systemd being in the way.

ps, they do have systemd dummy packages but no, they are not real. its only so you can use gnome 3 and other stuff.

;)

gd_scania
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If Patrick is ok to a rolling system Parabola/OpenRC is also recommended to him that’s rolling and nosystemd, otherwise please stick to Devuan and Hyperbola those are LTS and nosystemd. I use both of Parabola/OpenRC, Devuan, Hyperbola which I’m easy going alongside rolling and LTS systems. :)
Read more for OpenRC: https://wiki.parabola.nu/OpenRC

CalmStorm

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I would say Parabola is very easy to break though even if you are doing all the updates upgrades, etc...

Hyperbola though doesn't have a graphical install yet... so that is also complicated.

Devuan however is childs play for me. :)

Still, I prefer Hyperbola any day of the week.

fbit

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>I want to stay as pure unix as possible, or as possible as
>this can be with Linux which is not pure unix either.

GNU/Linux
AMOF, GNU's Not Unix.

strypey
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Patrick, I've read some commentary from both sides of the Systemd wars and its all seems like a storm in a teacup to me. The anti-Systemd rants often remind me of the the anti-GNU/ anti-FSF fanatics I find on sites like this:
https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/making-haiku-free-software/3084

Can you point me at some article that put forward sound technical reasons for rejecting Systemd? Ideally, articles that engage constructively with the rebuttals put forward by the pro-Systemd articles, rather than just accusing their authors of conspiracy or incompetence.

strypey
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Linked from the second of those links (and probably also the first), rebuttals to most of the major anti-systemd talking points, written by members of the systemd team:
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html

I strongly recommend reading this in full, after reading a few anti-systemd articles.

Patrick Mc(avery
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Hi, thanks for responding to my post.

The other Trisquel member sent some good links.

Just to add to the content of these, I see systemd as solving a problem
I don't have.

I am just a regular guy, I am open minded with most things and I don't
think anyone would consider my social or political views to be far from
main stream,  it's not like I think we should over turn women's right to
vote or something but my views on computer science are ultra conservative.

We keep talking about the Chinese Government hacking into various
Government bodies/companies but we don't look at ourselves and ask why
this is possible.

I am in Canada and our version of the IRS, Canada Revenue had a small
data breach with the Heart Bleed bug. I started my business in 2006 and
Canada Revenues website was still static content. Things still worked.
It seems that everything has to be online these days and newer is always
better than older.

The Canadian Government also screwed up our pay roll system for
Government employees, I don't remember hearing anything that went wrong
with the old one.

What's wrong with lilo ? Are the problems so terminal that they can't be
fixed?

Why not stick to the unix principal of doing one thing and doing it
well. systemd looks buggy and to be an unnecessary extension of the core
job it is designed to replace.

BTW I am also a Gnome Shell refugee, I liked Linux more in the GTK 2
era. Trisquel did  a nice job with gnome back when the classic fallback
still seemed to suck on Debian.

-Patrick

strypey
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There is a saying that any new technology that comes out before you turn
30 is the greatest thing ever, and any that comes out after you turn 30
is a pointless disruption and probably the end of civilization. Most of
your post gives me the impression you are over 30 (as am I) ;-P

>> Just to add to the content of these, I see systemd as solving a problem I don't have. <<

That doesn't mean it's solving a problem nobody has. Are you are a Linux
kernel developer?

>> I am just a regular guy <<

So... I'll assume not. In that case, it seems unlikely you would notice
the problems Systemd was created to solve.

>> We keep talking about the Chinese Government hacking into various Government bodies/companies but we don't look at ourselves and ask why this is possible. <<

Not sure which "we" you're referring to here. The hackers whose job it
is to fix security holes most certainly do ask, and although I'm not one
of them, I'll take a wild guess at why it's possible. From discussions
I've had with people who do programming for banks, one of the reasons is
old software not being refactored often enough. This results in chunks
of inefficient and unmaintained code living to a ripe old age inside
essential components (like OpenSSL), where they can easily be sold
bridges or convinced to hand out their internet banking passwords to
random callers. As long as it's done carefully, regular redesign
improves security, as well as efficiency (same output using fewer system
resources).

>> The Canadian Government also screwed up our pay roll system for Government employees, I don't remember hearing anything that went wrong with the old one. <<

Funny, we had exactly the same thing happen in Aotearoa (NZ). Management
of the payroll system was taken away from a database company with
decades of experience in payroll systems, and handed over to a foreign
HR company with no database experience at all. This was a political
screw-up, not a technical one.

>> What's wrong with lilo ? Are the problems so terminal that they can't be fixed? <<

I could be wrong, but I believe Lilo is a bootloader (like GRUB), not
part of the init system in the Linux kernel

>> Why not stick to the unix principal of doing one thing and doing it well. <<

Although I generally agree with the unix principle (when it comes to
back-end programs), it's a rule of thumb, not a law of nature. But it
turns out that the version of systemd the majority of distros have
adopted keeps to the unix principle anyway:

"thanks to a thorough collection of symlinks, systemd as finally
implemented provides the same collection of small, specialized
applications as Linux always has."

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/Learning-to-live-with-systemd

>> systemd looks buggy and to be an unnecessary extension of the core job it is designed to replace. <<

Oh, so you are a kernel developer. How many years have you spent writing
kernel code? I mean, you wouldn't just say something "looks buggy" if
you have no idea how to read the code, now would you?

>> BTW I am also a Gnome Shell refugee, I liked Linux more in the GTK 2 era. Trisquel did a nice job with gnome back when the classic fallback still seemed to suck on Debian. <<

While I agree that Trisquel's GUI is way better than any of the bloat
Ubuntu (or KDE distros) have put out over the past few years, this is a
UX (User Experience) issue. Totally different design principles apply.
For example, the unix principle doesn't apply to desktop application
GUIs, which work best when they do many things (although it does apply
to the back-end programs and libraries the buttons in that GUI point
to).

Thanks for writing. Hope that helps.

Patrick Mc(avery
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Hi Stypey

WHy did I bring up lilo? That was dumb! Heee hee, I am 42

-Patrick

strypey
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Going by your forum picture, you don't look a day over 30 ;P

Jodiendo
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retired old horse

CalmStorm

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"I see systemd as solving a problem
I don't have."

Yes, that is also my thought. I don't really understand why debian switched to it, given that it isn't as good for older hardware. meh... what can you do I suppose...

edit: He should probably use Hyperbola actually, no systemd, regular updates...

only thing is you need one laptop to install, and one for looking up the wiki with.

At least until calamares becomes a possibility for Hyperbola isos...

This would mean a graphical installer of course...

onpon4
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> I don't really understand why debian switched to it, given that it isn't as good for older hardware.

What init system you use has nothing to do with hardware support. That is the kernel (Linux) and the kernel alone.

As for not understanding why Debian switched to it, perhaps that should be an indication to you that you are not qualified to judge better than them what init system to use. It is a hallmark of stubbornness to reject an expert's decision without even understanding why said decision was made.

CalmStorm

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I suppose they might have made improvements since I learned of that tidbit,

The only thing is, people should be able to switch init systems if they want on debian. And, some people want to do that and others are willing to do the work. Though I have witnessed first hand how hard it is, to switch to sysvinit on debian. Let's just say, I tried once and everything went black...

I think other options should be available if people are willing to maintain them and want them.

ps, aren't you even a little bit curious why Devuan exists, Hyperbola, and other non systemd operating systems...?

Some of it is hate but some of it is concern. I don't see a reason to keep this argument going, so later...

fbit

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>Yes, that is also my thought. I don't really understand why
>debian switched to it, given that it isn't as good for older
>hardware. meh... what can you do I suppose...

I've used systemd on a 10 year old librebooted laptop and never had a problem. What is old hardware for you and what do you mean it "isn't as good for older hardware"?

CalmStorm

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I have too, Devuan actually booted faster on a 20 year old libreboot laptop. for me also. (X200)

I am hesitant to say more given the furher has many servants here at this point.

I would prefer not to start another thread war over this, but yeah, I highly doubt its worth it.

mason

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> Devuan actually booted faster on a 20 year old
> libreboot laptop. for me also. (X200)

The X200 is 10 years old, not 20. The X60 is 12 years old, and it has worked fine for me both with Upstart on Trisquel 7 and systemd on Trisquel 8. I haven't tried any other init systems, although I'm thinking of installing Parabola alongside Trisquel and may try the OpenRC version.

loldier
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https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd#Why_Debian_should_default_to_systemd

"Embedded systems benefit from speed improvements, shell-less design, ability to remove optional components, and lower memory footprint."

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

CalmStorm

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This feels too biased for me. Sometimes people do after all, try to save face by showing faultly information. I could be wrong of course, but yeah... don't trust it myself.

Patrick Mc(avery
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I am mixed up. What is biased? FreeNix? It seems like a good idea...

CalmStorm

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No, FreeNix is a good idea.

strypey
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BTW for anyone interested, this forum has already discussed the systemd wars in some details here:
https://trisquel.info/en/comment/reply/23010/120736

Also, please note that my second comment on this thread mistakenly implies that systemd is part of the Linux kernel. This is incorrect.

gnu-bori
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You can try Freenix (used to be FreeSlack) if you want a libre-system and systemd free GNU/Linux distro. However, you have to be comfortable dealing with a package manager that do not resolve dependencies.

Jodiendo
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GNU-BORICUA

QUE ES ESO?
LA CABEZA CALABERA DE TU ICONO! PREFIERO la banderita pipiola! LOL\
nO LO SUENES TAN ALTO EL DISPARATE PIPIOLO!
lol
que viva la estadidad 51!!

grimlok
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There is also ConnochaetOS which is supposed to be a liberated Slackware/Salix

https://connochaetos.org/wiki/home

strypey
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Off-topic, but I notice there are now a number of libre distros that aren't in the FSF list, including FreeNix and ConnochaetOS mentioned here, as well as Uruk, Hyperbola, and Heads:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

Is this because they don't meet the criteria, or because the process for updating the page is very slow? I'm guessing it's the latter because at least 3 of the distros currently listed are either dormant (Musix), discontinued (Dyne:Bolic), or strictly for masochists (BLAG).

Dave_Hunt

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My concern is that Uruk may not get cirtified, it's Trisquel with a slightly different ui.

Magic Banana

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BLAG was a nice distribution. Not for masochists. I used it for some months as my main system, many years ago. It is now discontinued.

gnu-bori
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Freenix applied back in March 1, 2016 but were denied because the first name was similar to Slackware. The first name was FreeSlack. So they changed the name and they are waiting for the approval. They are still under the review process. That information was posted on their forum.

gnu-bori
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Jodiendo la bandera la puso ahí porque me gustó la calavera. No del PIP son unos cobardes vendidos. Nacionalista sangre o libertad