Benjamin Franklin

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PsychicEcho
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"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

PublicLewdness
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In the software world I feel like security would be swapped with convenience. People give up liberty every day because they need to use a specific program or device. I'm as guilty as many although I am trying to change. Whenever someone asks what to expect if they go the free software route I always say "learn the word compromise".

commodore256
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They not only deserve neither and will soon lose both.

Enlightenment liberalism is pretty good, they respect property rights, but the problem was the enlightenment era had a different interpretation of property that was hypocritical. If you believe self ownership doesn't exist, you're exercising self ownership by having a slave labor system.

Slave owner: "Self ownership doesn't exist because I can have slaves"

Me: "By you having no slave master, you're exercising self ownership, and thus defeated your own argument".

Most contemporary enlightenment liberals believe in self ownership. and think "yeah, they were 99% right, it's just that 1% I strongly disagree with"

PsychicEcho
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I think we all need to learn to be both master and slave.

yeah I'm plenty guilty myself. All I can do is try to be better.

lutes
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"Every slave may be reckoned a domestic enemy" --Benjamin Franklin, Memoirs, vol. II, p. 111.

Magic Banana

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Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

With software, freedom is a requirement for safety, at least safety against the developers of the software. Abusing users has become the main business model for proprietary software companies, especially those proposing it gratis, but not only.

Outside software though, there are trade-offs between freedom and safety. Take the current situation: when a pandemic strikes, it makes sense to give up some freedom of movement for all of us to be safer.

Here is another citation, from "On liberty" by John Stuart Mill, that actually defends the rights of the individual against the state (unlike the quotation of Benjamin Franklin)... but that actually argues that some liberty can be given up for safety (self-protection):

The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AOn_Liberty_(4th_Edition).djvu/21

lutes
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> there are trade-offs between freedom and safety.

Indeed, the crucial words in Franklin's quotation are the qualifiers: "essential" vs. "little temporary".

The quote actually works surprisingly well both ways:

"Those who would give up essential safety, to purchase a little temporary liberty, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Me, adapted from Benjamin Franklin's Memoirs.

In fact it is not clear at all what "safety" the original quote was referring to, because the money raised was precisely reserved to protect the "Freemen of Pennsylvania" against the enemies (as it happens, the French). It seems that Franklin liked his own words so much that he had to paste them twice on the same page of his Memoirs, in case someone tried to cut them away.

PsychicEcho
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The problem here is, the elites know that people will surrender liberty in crises, and so they make sure crises will always exist.

How much illness is caused by lockdowns, isolation, loneliness, fear, anxiety, etc...

Isn't it funny how the elites are raising fear and awareness about the virus, but when it comes to their own industry, they couldn't care less about hygiene and safety.

Magic Banana

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Here in Brazil, the political and industrial elite downplays the pandemic. In particular, the president said the pandemic is a hysteria, a little flu, ..., and, three days ago (I translate):

Everything now is pandemic. That must stop. I lament the deaths. We will all die, one day, it is worthless to run away. We must stop to be a country of sissies.

That was the same day he was:

  • commemorating on Twitter his success in suspending the test of a vaccine against COVID-19 (developed in a state agency; the state being ruled by a political opponent), although there was no good medical reason (fortunately, the test resumed);
  • commenting on the declaration of Joe Biden about the destruction of the rain forest by saying (again, I translate) "When we run out of saliva, we must have gun powder, otherwise, it does not work".

Brazil is second in terms of deaths by COVID-19. Right after the USA, which recently decided to ditch their far-right troll. Like Bolsonaro, he was comparing the COVID-19 to the common flu.

PsychicEcho
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Much of that could just be political posturing. The virus is the big issue in public consciousness, and so a sort of theater is formed around it.

Magic Banana

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The virus is the big issue. It has already killed over 1.2 million people and, for one month, it has killed more and more every day.

lutes
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Indeed, and there are only good reasons to double check our sources in order to avoid getting drowned in all the surrounding noise.

Talking about which: https://doi.org/10.1177%2F0300891620974755. So SARS-Cov-2 antibodies were found in samples from people in Italy taken as early as September 2019. So much for the "China virus".

PsychicEcho
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The easiest way to tell what the elite's intentions are, is to watch the mainstream media (for as long as you can stomach it) . "The media never lies" , even though it always lies.