Can some1 in the know give me an update about all the computers that's for sale (PYRA, EOMA etc)

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GrevenGull
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Like PYRA, EOMA, Pinebook etc. Which of them is nearest "release", which of them is "freest", does any1 come with Trisquel? If not, which of them is easest to get Trisquel on etc?

Just creating a general thread here about computers for sale (not refurbished Thinkpads, but new hardware specifically designed with free intentions).

If you think this thread is silly and you think that I am lazy for using you to do the research for you. You are correct. But please, rise above and just ignore the post instead of the "hurr durr heard about Google".

=D

jxself
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"I am lazy for using you to do the research for you. You are correct."

Don't be lazy.

"does any1 come with Trisquel?"

Oh, so lazy that you can't even type full words. :)

These machines have ARM processors in them. Trisquel is not currently available for ARM; Trisquel is only offered for 32- and 64-bit x86 processors.

And so none of these machines can run Trisquel.

And thus, none of them ***come*** with Trisquel either, and well, it's not going to be very easy to get Trisquel on them because you'll need recompile all of Trisquel from scratch for ARM; fixing any build problems that come up in the process.

Trisquel 9 is supposed to have support for ARM but who knows when that will come out. And even when it does it's not clear to me ***which*** ARM will be supported. I'd like Trisquel 9 to do both armhf and arm64 but from the weekly Freedom Fridays meeting it's not clear to me if that's the plan or not.

And so: Hurr durr. Sorry; I couldn't resist since you admitted to being lazy.

andyprough
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> Trisquel 9 is supposed to have support for ARM but who knows when that will come out. And even when it does it's not clear to me ***which*** ARM will be supported. I'd like Trisquel 9 to do both armhf and arm64 but from the weekly Freedom Fridays meeting it's not clear to me if that's the plan or not.

I've been assuming that Raptor Talos and Raptor Blackbird will both be supported with Trisquel 9 - have you been hearing one way or the other? They aren't laptops, but they certainly look like they will go a long way toward achieving a libre hardware/software system.

Especially the Blackbird will be interesting, with built-in HDMI video.

GrevenGull
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It seems so to me as well. I remember they answered me per mail back in the days that their systems supported Ubuntu, so they should be supporting Trisquel then?

However... Raptor is .... Expensive...

andyprough
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The Raptor Blackbird basic motherboard is going to come in at just under $1000. Still a lot more than a $200 SoC ARM system like PineBook Pro, but not out of line for the desktop/workstation performance you should be able to get out of it.

jxself
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"I've been assuming that Raptor Talos and Raptor Blackbird will both be supported with Trisquel 9 - have you been hearing one way or the other?"

Yes, ppc64el is supposed to be supported.

andyprough
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Very exciting. I'm going to need to save my pennies.

GrevenGull
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Joined: 12/18/2017

Haha excellent, Debian it is then? Better to buy a new freedom focused hardware with Debian than an old refurbished with Trisquel, no?

chaosmonk

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> Better to buy a new freedom focused hardware with Debian than an old refurbished with Trisquel, no?

Depends. By buying a new, ARM-based laptop you are supporting the exploration of non-x86 architectures, which is a good thing. By buying a reburbished laptop you are supporting a culture of reuse and keeping working hardware out of a landfill. Both are good things for different reasons, so weigh both against your personal needs which might include:

- Do you need 3D acceleration? The ARM-based laptops all require proprietary software for this, whereas the librebootable Thinkpads will not.
- Are you willing to be informed and diligent enough to avoid Debian's freedom issues? It is not too hard to run a fully-free Debian system, unless you're lazy. Here[1] I described some of the pitfalls to avoid with Ubuntu. Some of them don't apply to Debian (the kernel is already clean, and the repositories of non-free software are disabled by default) but the other issues are things to watch out for in both Ubuntu and Debian.
- How powerful of a machine do you need? Although these ARM laptops are newer, they have lower specs than the X200 and T400, although the Pinebook Pro comes close.
- Do you have strong preferences regarding form factor? I strongly prefer that of the Thinkpads.

Personally I prefer the Thinkpads. I did preorder an EOMA68 A20, and I will probably buy other ARM-based laptops in the future, but this is to help support the projects, not because I'm unhappy with my current laptop.

[1] https://trisquel.info/en/forum/ubuntu-studio-base-next-trisquel-trisquelize-ubuntu-studio#comment-140859

GrevenGull
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Good points! :)

GrevenGull
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Where do u recommend to buy the thinkpads if I may ask?

chaosmonk

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> Where do u recommend to buy the thinkpads if I may ask?

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. If you use a WiFi dongle and go
without 3D acceleration the Pinebooks are just as free. The Pinebook has
significantly lower specs, whereas the Pinebook Pro seems pretty close
to the X200 and T400. I also prefer the Thinkpad form factor
(particularly the trackpoint). These are all issues of preference
though, not freedom.

The problem with the librebootable Thinkpads is that they aren't being
manufactured anymore, so eventually we're just going to run out. That's
why new hardware based on non-x86 architectures is so important, so it's
good to support projects like the Pinebook. At the same time, it would
be wasteful not to use the supply of old hardware we have as long as it
remains useful.

I see buying any of these laptops as a positive thing, so I would advise
you to go with whichever best suits your prefrences.

chaosmonk

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> > Where do u recommend to buy the thinkpads if I may ask?

Whoops. I misread this as "Why do u recommend..."

Sometimes pre-librebooted ones pop up on Ebay. There are also some
vendors who have them in stock (Vikings, Minifree, Technothetical), so
you could look into which have the better shipping rates to your
location. The founder of Minifree is as a libreboot developer, and I
believe she puts most of Minifree's profits back into the libreboot
project, so that's another factor to consider.

GrevenGull
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Joined: 12/18/2017

Thanks!
About the Pinebooks you were talking about.. they aren't out yet, are they?

andyprough
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11.6 inch original Pinebooks are available right now for $99 plus whatever shipping/handling/tax you have to pay: https://store.pine64.org/?product=11-6-pinebook

I would wait at least until the $199 Pinebook Pro is released though (possibly this summer). Like chaosmonk said, this current $99 Pinebook probably will not even run as well as a 10-year-old Thinkpad. With a usb wifi dongle, you should hopefully be able to run the Pinebook Pro in 2D graphics mode with nothing but libre software. Although finding an FSF-approved OS that will run on ARM right now will be difficult. Probably have to wait until Trisquel 9 for ARM becomes available, or try to get Debian's ARM version running only libre software.

GrevenGull
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Right right. Why exactly is Debian available for these architectures, but Trisquel not? Is it simply because the Debian devs have prioritized it and Trisquel devs not? I thought Debian and Trisquel were basically the same?

Masaru Suzuqi
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Joined: 06/06/2018

>Why exactly is Debian available for these architectures, but Trisquel not?

And if you let me add some additional questions, it seems that C201 was the latest librebootable laptop in 2015 then, it was 4 years ago.

ASUS Chromebook C201 now supported in libreboot - ARM CPU
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/asus-chromebook-c201-now-supported-libreboot-arm-cpu

But curiously enough, firstly Trisquel project doesn't seem to put much effort into these RK3288 Chromebooks (and other ARM SBCs which are mentioned by FSF or GNU I forgot as almost libre hardware) to be able to install Trisquel on them. However it also doesn't seem that some fatal flaws or something were discovered to install Trisquel on them. If so, I would have seen those information somewhere.
Why did not Trisquel project put effort into it?
Resources?

Debian and Arch (and Kali and Prawn?) have prepared special instruction pages to install their OS on those devices. But I failed to install all of them on the laptop and it seems that there are not few people who also failed that.
Debian also doesn't seem to put much effort into installing their OS on those devices which are rare to be librebooted.
I think it seems very strange. And I think that I have not find the reasons why Chromebooks need those special installing procedure, too. Sooner or later, I would see the reasons, though.

Masaru Suzuqi
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Sorry GrevenGull. It seem I stopped your q and a and this discussion by my question. I was expecting it, though :P or is this also because of my English or something?

chaosmonk

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> Why exactly is Debian available for these architectures, but Trisquel not? Is it simply because the Debian devs have prioritized it and Trisquel devs not?

It's less an issue of priorities and more one of manpower. Debian has way more volunteers than Trisquel, so they can get way more done. There's no reason that Trisquel can't support ARM, except that the work just hasn't been done yet. By Trisquel 9 it will have.

Masaru Suzuqi
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>It's less an issue of priorities and more one of manpower.

I think that my question, maybe people would have normally, was not cleared very much.
The project leader seems to have stated that the reason was that like there was no good ARM device.
But the good ARM devices appeared in 2015. Rare librebootable-newer-cheap laptops.
I would avoid to display all the reasons why it seems to be curious, though for example, if you type the word C201, you will get 3 pages of the result. If you type "X200", you will get 39 pages of it.
And some users's comment seem to be curious, too. It seems like they state unnaturally like "However I would buy x60 instead of c201...", without convincible reasons. If you can buy a new laptop for around $200, would you buy a quite older laptop for $100? and Minifree seems to have sold librebooted C201 before and quit it.
"I'm not really sure what is this" means untrustworthy. Lacking that transparency, you say. Is that already unrecoverable level? If you demand others transparency, you should be better to have that clear transparency first. There are about 10 articles in Japanese language about libreboot on the web. Maybe 7 or 8 articles are about the trouble between GNU and Miss Lowe. Then almost all of writers write that "I'm not really sure what is this". Self-advertisement for ruin? Because of lacking transparency, both sides became to be untrustworthy. If I will have to display concrete explanations, I might do it later. I am not sure if there is necessity to do such a thing, though.
I wish you would understand what that my doubt which people would feel naturally vaguely means.
I think until those get that transparency, we cannot step forward, things have a proper order, I am not sure, though.

And roll your own, please.

Masaru Suzuqi
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That is NSA should report to the taxpayers have actual sovereignty and it would be most reliable.