Difference between Linux-libre kernel and Debian (main) kernel?

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GNUsercn
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Joined: 10/13/2015

Just as the title:

What is the Difference between Linux-libre kernel and Debian (main) kernel?

(I mean Debian kernel as from its main repo, not "contrib" nor "nonfree"...

Jabjabs
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Joined: 07/05/2014

I suppose to real big difference is that the Libre kernel won't recommend any non-free drivers where as the Debian one will. It doesn't included them from the get go and still needs user intervention to install them but Linux-libre won't even do that.

quantumgravity
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Joined: 04/22/2013

I doubt that the kernel is suggesting anything... rather some software of the actual Debian System.

lembas
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It does. Load a module that requires a proprietary firmware. Only Linux-libre will not suggest you install such.

SuperTramp83

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It never suggested to install the firmware for my ATI crap. I assure you of that! I never saw the deblobbed Debian kernel or any other part of Debian recommend the installation of the ati blob or mention the non-free firmware (other than "missing firmware on boot" but that is not really recommending its installation..). But maybe I'm an exception to this. I don't know that.
Nor did Iceweasel recommend flash or any other crap like that.

lembas
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Sounds like you didn't read the logs or try manually loading the module. Dunno if the latter is even possible in this case.

If you install in expert mode, the Debian installer will ask you whether you'd like to add contrib and non-free.

In Iceweasel if you goto where ever > addons > get addons, you get to the Mozilla addons site which also hosts proprietary addons. Some addons don't mention any license, some say proprietary.

Debian the distro can be free if you know what you're doing and you're careful. But it's not something you can recommend to ordinary people if you care about their freedom. Also, Debian the project distributes proprietary software.

Some related articles
https://www.gnu.org/distros/optionally-free-not-enough.html
https://jxself.org/debian-doubletalk.shtml

SuperTramp83

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lembas: first of all I am not recommending anything. Period.

>If you install in expert mode, the Debian installer will ask you whether you'd like to add contrib and non-free.

That's another pair of shoes.

>In Iceweasel if you goto where ever > addons > get addons, you get to the Mozilla addons site which also hosts proprietary addons. Some addons don't mention any license, some say proprietary.

Sure. But that is not "Iceweasel recommending the installation of crap". Let's not mix words.
You can install a ton of proprietary software (addons included) on any fsf approved or whatever libre distro you use. In fact the only important thing is the firm rejection of any proprietary software, not the distro (browser included) you use (as long as it is 100% libre).

>Debian the distro can be free if you know what you're doing and you're careful. But it's not something you can recommend to ordinary people if you care about their freedom. Also, Debian the project distributes proprietary software.

Debian is by default as libre as Trisquel.
Again, where do you see me recommending Debian?
Please, do show me. :)

I am very familiar with both the articles you linked.

cooloutac
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Joined: 06/27/2015

The whole reason you're using debian is for ati drivers...

Are you arguing semantics because you're feeling guilty for being a debian user on the trisquel forums? The reason some people prefer trisquel over debian, is because debian is not 100% libre. Its doc's aren't 100% libre, its repos aren't 100% libre, and its kernel definitely is not, which is the reason you are using it!

quantumgravity
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Joined: 04/22/2013

You're misinformed. The kernel _is_ libre.
If you know better (i guess you don't), please give some references.

cooloutac
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Joined: 06/27/2015

its not libre to me, if it automatically accept non free modules, or inform you that they are "missing", implying they are needed.

tomlukeywood
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Joined: 12/05/2014

well its a libre system if it is made up of only libre software as Debian main is
but i agree it would be better if Debian did not imply that the non-free software is needed (this is the impression i got when i first tried Debian without knowing what free software was)

moxalt
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> its not libre to me, if it automatically will load non free modules,

What are you on about? The Debian kernel doesn't automatically load non-free
modules. By default, only free modules are installed, and only free modules are
available. If one wishes to install proprietary modules, one can enable the
'non-free' repo, but that's hardly 'automatic'. If it installed non-free
modules by default, then this would be an issue, but not only is the kernel
itself libre, so are the default and available selection of modules. I fail to
see your point.

> or inform you that they are "missing"

Example please?

> its not libre to me

It doesn't matter whether or not you consider it to be libre. There's a (more
or less) fine line separating free from non-free software- whether it affords
the user the four freedoms. The Debian kernel is free, as are all the default
installed and available modules. It is free software. 'nuff said.

I use Debian main. If it wasn't 100% free, I wouldn't use it.

Debian is an excellent distribution, and is just as free as Trisquel if you
know what you're doing.

cooloutac
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Yes it does, unlike trisquel which won't let you. Whether you consider that a "bug or not, I consider that a security benefit.

You need an example of how debian will inform you of missing drivers or modules? honestly? This is how linux works in general! Debian, like almost all distros, will show you on boot even if it has a splash screen. Another debian user feeling guilty being on the trisquel forums?

The docs are not 100% libre, the repos are not 100% libre, and neither is the kernel, imo, if it accepts non free modules...

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

I don't know why you think this particular Linux-libre bug prevents execution of proprietary code. Getting it to load proprietary firmware is easy: replace existing libre firmware. Heck, I'll give you a real-world example: there's an old, proprietary firmware blob that can be loaded onto the Atheros devices Think Penguin sells, and Linux-libre will happily load that if it's available.

On the other hand, if you develop a libre replacement for a proprietary firmware blob, Linux-libre will not use it, because it isn't aware that it can. Do you remember back when Think Penguin's wifi adapters first got certified by the FSF? There was a period of I think a month or something where they were completely useless in Trisquel without completely replacing the kernel because of this bug. This isn't a critical problem, but it's still a problem.

So no, this bug in Linux-libre is not a security feature.

cooloutac
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The beauty of linux is that nothing is impossible with knowhow, All I'm implying, is that chances are pretty nil for me to accidentally install non free software or drivers on trisquel, contrary to debian.

barf barf barf
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Magic Banana

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And even if I wanted to i would have trouble

If that would be by design (which is not, it is a bug), it would be like a usage restriction, a DRM. I am against DRMs. Even if they prevent the user from running proprietary software.

Would you please stop ad hominem (and unfounded) attacks? Posts with such content deserve a -1 in my opinion.

cooloutac
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Trisquel is not designed to stop you from installing another kernel at all(even if to install prop drivers which would defeat its purpose).... so nothing is "DRM". On mint when changing kernel, you will most likely see actual DRM messages on boot even if not using a prop video driver, which like debian boot messages, implies something is wrong when there isn't..lol The difference is, such a thing is not seen and prop software is not easily installed by "accident" on trisquel, unlike on debian and other distros.

And nothing is unfounded if already admitted publicly by themselves.

Magic Banana

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By that standard, DRMs almost do not exist: there usually is at least one equivalent program that is DRM-free.

The people you accuse have already written several times that you lie. Given your paranoia (you even "believe" quidam uses Debian on his main system!), I tend to believe them. Anyway, I see no benefit in witch-hunting.

moxalt
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> Anyway, I see no benefit in a witch-hunting.

Exactly. So what if they use non-free firmware! As long as they continue to be
constructive members of the community and do not recommend non-free software to
anyone it shouldn't even matter what they do in private. It's their freedom at
stake, not ours.

cooloutac
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You lead by example or noone will take you seriously. They also can't take a project seriously that its own users don't even take seriously.

One of the problems is they are not doing it in private, If people choose to use non free software thats fine. But talking about how it is better is the same as recommending it. I'm not psychic and i'm not taking lucky guesses about supertramps debian use or calinous video drivers. They talk about it in public and are obvious about it. Calinou doesn't even recommend debian anymore, now he recommends fedora...lol I can't go in the trisquel chatroom anymore, cause I got tired of certain users, who don't even use trisquel, constantly putting it down. And when I debate people on the reasons they think other distros or certain non free software is better, or why certain security mechanisms or certain software choices should not be changed, i'm the one who is considered being rude and offtopic.

And when i see certain users putting other users down, or refusing them proper support and saying "they should be punished" for using non free software, when they themselves use non free software I consider that not only hypocritical, but harmful to new users and trisquel's popularity and I cannot stay silent about it.

And when people publicly say they use debian instead of trisquel, because debian is "more popular" it is even more apalling to me, becaues I don't consider that a valid reason especially if we want trisquel to be more popular. I like to promote security along with 4 freedoms, usability and accessibility, and trisquel is my fav linux distro because it easily has all four of those things and I try to mention it to people everywhere that this is my main o/s.

moxalt
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> And when I debate people on the reasons they think other distros or certain
> non free software is better, or why certain security mechanisms or certain
> software choices should not be changed, i'm the one who is considered being
> rude and offtopic.

Ever heard of a thing called persecution mania?

> I like to promote security along with 4 freedoms, usability and
> accessibility, and trisquel is my fav linux distro

Don't bother. Just promote the four freedoms- security is a feature, and stems
from the freedom of the software. It is one particular feature that free
software usually excels in due to its community-oriented nature. But we've been
there before *cough*
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/returned-trisquel7?page=1#comment-75698 *cough*.
Good times.

Also, GNU/Linux.

ADFENO
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Joined: 12/31/2012

Yes, this is indeed something people forget about.

Security is a feature, while software freedom is an essential need.

Security can be achieved through software freedom, while software
freedom never comes from security.

cooloutac
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So you think purposely designing restrictions is the same thing as them being an unintentional result? Or You think that using 3rd party software to to illegally hack around drm restrictions with alot of hassle, is the same as simply installing non free software (such as new kernel) with no hassle? Thats very interesting.... I think you're reaching...

barf barf barf
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Magic Banana

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You have issues: why do you absolutely want to name and shame users of proprietary software? What good is there in doing so? What pleasure do you find? Notice that I am not implying that SuperTramp83 or Calinou are using proprietary software. I do not care and I have no idea why you care. I care when people are using this forum to recommend or legitimate proprietary software, what is against our community guidelines. But that is a different topic.

With regard to your first questions, I do not understand your logic. No it is not the same to purposefully implement restrictions (work against the users) and to have limited features (lack of work to benefit the users). I see no problem in installing and using third party problem to do whatever you want, but would not do so if that third party software is proprietary. So what?

SuperTramp83

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barf barf barf
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Magic Banana

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Please respect the community guidelines: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines (in particular: "Do not insult others here").

onpon4
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"DRM" in this context means "Direct Rendering Manager". It has nothing to do with digital restrictions, and I don't know if you would even have a functional display without it.

Amadren
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Trisquel informs too that they are missing non-free drivers/firmware/modules (with my USB WiFi adapter for exemple I have a message like [XXXXXX.XX]Can't load firmware rtlXXXX)

lembas
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If that is so, then please file a bug at

https://trisquel.info/en/project/issues

cooloutac
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I got that on an intel driver, but only when looking at the syslog, not actually displayed on the screen at boot.

ADFENO
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Forgive me for entering in the middle of this talk, but I would like to
say that perhaps the answer is in the build logs.

I'm not giving a definitive answer like "Yes, it's non-free software",
or "No, it's indeed free software". Quite the unusual: I'm trying to
provide pointers to where the answer might be.

Regarding the build logs, it might sound useless, but three months ago,
I happened to find the build logs from the guys of the Linux-libre
project in it's own repository. While the build logs alone don't give us
much information, we could compare these build logs with a specific file
(which I don't remember the name or location) from the copy of the Linux
project source code that is being used by the Debian project. This
"specific file" is supposed to tell the reader about the modules being
distributed in the copy, along with the license and where their source
code can be found in Debians' copy of the Linux kernel's source code.

moxalt
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I have a simple request- can you prove that Calinou and SuperTramp are using
non-free Debian systems? Just using Debian is not evidence enough. I use
Debian, but I don't necessarily use non-free software.

Stuff that they supposedly said in IRC (without logs) is not very trustworthy
evidence, especially when coming from you, since you've blatantly lied about
things in the past and see conspiracy everywhere.

cooloutac
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even logs won't be proof enough for you.

I have never blatantly lied about anything, don't be mad because you're another debian user who doesn't ever even use trisquel, posing on the trisquel forums...

barf barf barf
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SuperTramp83

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listen moron. I had enough of your bullshit. There will be consequences. Take my word on it.

cooloutac
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you're too noob to make threats like that...

SuperTramp83

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barfrebarfbarf :)

moxalt
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> Here is a recent log for Calinou, you can ask him yourself he won't deny
> it. In this log shows he is now using fedora instead of debian and uses non
> free video drivers for games. Why you people are even in the trisquel forums
> or chat rooms is beyond me. I guess because you can't feed your egos in
> the debian and fedora channels...

Well I have to go somewhere to feed my ego, don't I? Might as well be here ;)

> I personally to come here to read about
> trisquel not other distros.

Yes. This is the Trisquel forum. The most talk about other distros actually
comes from you.

> I can't be bothered to search for when supertramp told me, but he already
> admitted he uses debian in this thread, you'll have to take my word for it
> he also uses non free drivers for gaming.

The former statement I agree with (and see no problem with, as I explained
elsewhere), but I will not just 'take your word for it' as to the latter claim.
Evidence as with Calinou is still required.

> http://dpaste.com/0VZZZHS

Of course, these could have been fabricated, but somehow I doubt it. Thank you
for the evidence. I'm very surprised that Calinou would surrender his freedoms
just for better graphics. What makes it even more surprising is that in the
very log you posted, he criticises Debian for 'not being ethical' while using
Fedora! That is hypocritical. There is method behind your madness, it seems.

Calinou being on the Trisquel forums, on the other hand, is not hypocritical.
He does not recommend non-free software or advertise himself as a user of the
same (except that one time in IRC), as per the Community Guidelines. He is
helpful and generally makes positive contributions. I see no benefit in this
witch-hunt (though I am relieved that maybe it can stop now that the evidence
has been placed on the table, so to speak).

SuperTramp83

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> I can't be bothered to search for when supertramp told me, but he already

moxalt: you really think this major troll wouldn't have pasted a log on me if he actually had one? He is a liar, he has no evidence to support his false claims on me and the reason is all he's been saying regarding my persona on this forum is an utter lie.
He's never posted a useful comment on this forum, he's never helped anyone here with any issue or whatever. Ever since he appeared here and on IRC he's done nothing else but provoking people, taking logs, lying and acting as an obsessive maniac.
I had enough of this dude. He's been posting shit about me for months now. I wish he disappeared into his miserable oblivion, never to be heard again.

cooloutac
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I wasn't wrong about you not using trisquel was I? Why don't you tell us all why you don't? The reasons you gave me was that Debian is more popular and that you need video drivers for your gaming...

moxalt
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> I wasn't wrong about you not using trisquel was I? Why don't you tell us
> all why you don't... The reasons you gave me was that Debian is more popular
> and that you need video drivers for your gaming...

Being right about one thing doesn't make you right about everything. As for the
latter claim, we are still waiting for concrete evidence as opposed to hearsay
from a particularly unreliable source.

ADFENO
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Joined: 12/31/2012

Well... Here we go again...

Thank you very much moxalt for this reply. Just by taking a quick read
on it, I can say that I mostly agree with your reply.

I really don't have the time to keep repeating myself and perhaps, this
reply should be directed to cooloutac instead[1].

REFERENCES

[1]
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/cognitive-ease-and-free-software#comment-82583

ADFENO
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Joined: 12/31/2012

Oh, and look, a new article by Richard Stallman on the very same subject came up[1]. :D

REFERENCES

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html

cooloutac
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They do it all the time, which is why I don't go in the irc channel anymore. I can't just stand by quiet.

davidnotcoulthard
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Linux-libre is the only one of the 2 programmed to refuse to run non-free firmware (whether or not that's DRM is up for debate IM(H)O)

lembas
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You make it sound like that's by design. It's not. In fact it is a bug, a very low priority one. AFAIK

davidnotcoulthard
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In all honesty that's what I thought upon experiencing it.........

(I should check out how the bug unfolded.........I guess I will when I become un-lazy enough to do that!)

cooloutac
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I consider that a security benefit.

onpon4
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To clarify, when Linux is missing a firmware file that's needed for some hardware available, an error message is printed showing the name of the firmware file. Linux-libre removes these references, but a side effect of this is that it can't even load the firmware if it's available. Debian's Linux just removes the firmware, leaving the messages (and the ability to put the firmware there yourself) in place.

SuperTramp83

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Onpon - that's correct. You can clearly see the "missing firmware" on boot on the Debian kernel.

cooloutac
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Some see that as an error message implying you need to install it to fix it.

alimiracle
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> file. Linux-libre removes these references, but a side effect of this is that it can't even load the firmware if it's available. Debian's Linux just removes
> the firmware, leaving the messages (and the ability to put the firmware there yourself) in place.
onpon4 my frend install non free firmware