Economic inequalities between nations

18 replies [Last post]
Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

Would there be a economist or a person who is familiar with economy?
Just on the supposition that if the USA falls into hyperinflation, what main results are expected? I think that I can understand some dialectic questions from the supposed expected results.
And this is also just on the supposition that if every country sold all of US national bonds, what would occur?
These are just stories of suppositions. I know such things will not occur actually.
I am assuming that the outline of the relation between the lower classes workers and the moneylenders in Japan can be applied to the global economic inequalities between nations, too.

commodore256
Offline
Joined: 01/10/2013

All I need to feel rich is a small lot of land in the middle of nowhere and a trailer.

There's two types of economic inequalities: One caused by having a lot of freedom and one cause by not having enough.

The ones caused by having a lot of freedom are good, because when the rich get richer, the poor get richer too, just not as much. There are people that own large businesses that can sell to more customers, but say a construction worker can get more work and there would be more innovations increasing efficiency of labour and making everybody more rich.

The ones cause by not having enough economic freedom, usually lobbyists would fear monger for more regulations for "safety" and you get monopolies and cartels that's almost impossible to compete with. Look at non-free software, non-free software is fuelled by idea monopolization laws. There's also 101 year-old licensing laws in the states. Here, I can't even sell lemonade without kissing the ring of the king.

There's also another cause of economic inequalities, inequalities of abilities. I can't work with people or take stress, so I'm stuck on welfare and I hate it, because it's funded by extorted money. If I could have an option to starve to death so my friends could save $10,000 per year on taxes, I would. I would rather be helped by a charity, I'm not one of those anti-handout people, I'm fine with handouts and I'm fine with handouts being funded with extorted money, I'm just not fine with extorted money. It's like the FSF, they like software freedom, but in licensing restricts freedom. They just try to make the best of the system they live in. If there was no idea monopolization laws and really good reverse engineering software, the FSF's mission would be redundant.

Though, if I had more freedom, even with my lack of ability, I would have more opportunities. not just for work. A healthy mindset would be doing a favour for somebody and getting rewarded, but the problem is I can only do small favours, but small favours only justify small rewards and there are people in costumes that can lock people in cages for giving rewards less than $11 per hour. Other than that, there would be a lot more innovations making the common folk way more wealthy and they'll be so wealthy, they could feel more charitable. I would imagine a guy that has his own clean power plant full of cheap energy could give away electricity. If I had a Thorium Reactor in my back yard, I would do it just to be self-dependent and give away to friends and family, under cut the electric company and donate some of my electricity, the bottom 10% in my area (outside of friends and family) would be free and the next 10% of people would have a 50% discount, so 15% of the profits from that side-gig would go to helping people. Also the waste would be recycled to make safe Carbon-14 diamond fission batteries that would emit only harmless beta radiation.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

Although my thoughts "We should share more" hardened from your post, your post seems to be just about your ideas on the so-called more communistic ideal world. You mean the better world will be consequent upon the hyperinflation of the USA and selling all of US national bonds?
If so, I could relate the content of your post with my questions but I'm not sure about the relation. If it is not so, it would seem that it would belong the thread "What is ethical" rather than this thread. I was talking about sharing there. But my understanding might be the cause. How does the content relate with my questions?

Anyway I assume that you were answering my questions. You seemed to enjoy thinking about how to favour others with. Thinking about what can we do for others (e.g. making them laugh, and maybe even thinking how to torture them) makes us happy. Because you can be happy by seeing other people are pleased with your favour. Most people would be able to remember strongly those moments. Some of those favours might have been small ones. But I think those your small favours might be very precious something for them. Even the police officer in the movie Passion (not Mr. Godard's one) felt the strange feelings. But still that does not seem a subject of this thread very much unless thinking that you were talking about those as some ideas on the basis of the supposed consequences of the inflation and the rebellion.

And I have no much interest in whether you are on welfare or not. But if you have been extorted tax and if you live in some country, the excellent government could finance the money well by betting your money on the lands of so-called the third world (...) or somewhere or something. Even if you can think it is kind of money laundering so still you might not be fine with the money, also there are ideas such as carbon offset. It depends, in my opinion. But still I don't understand well how this relates to my questions about US economy but as an advice , take it easy as possible as you can anyway.

And if the virtue of people of FSF is sane, after achieved the computer freedom, they immediately would tackle other problems e.g. the pollution issues with prepared cunning plans. (But also they could seem to have no much interest in other freedoms though, since some of my past questions. They were ignored almost at all. My English skills and tactical writing style were blamed. So I might need more some defences by writing)
There are people who say such an activity is just publicity stunt but usually those people who say such a thing have not tackled any issues, leave things to others and just take, take, take, take. The point is whether FSF (or any kind of activist) is sincere in achieving their purpose or not. Sincere activists are angry for the system. Anyway if one person of FSF was overweight, they would have difficulty to criticise the issue of world hunger. And every issue is related each other less or more. World hunger issue is related with pollution issues very deeply. World hunger issue is related with these economical issues very deeply. The military as well. So your answers also might be related to my questions (but I am really not sure) and the adiposity issue too. Every concern would arrive at "the system". I doubt FSF's sincerity, from my private experiences, too. Ignoring, evading, is the same way as Apple's, Google's, Softbank's etc's etc's.
It is inconvenient so they ignore, but anyway take money. We don't answer, interpret our privacy policy or the agreement in grey zone as we like, we don't mind lawsuits. What do you think who I am? I am working for DMM, I am a vice-middle manager of this section. Anyway we don't answer if we are censoring your communication or not, I already got permission to ignore your inconvenient questions from my great superior. This is the jungle of the law. Anyway pay money every month. Or, OK, please let me explain with a very simple metaphor since you live in such a public multiple trailer housing, see, iOS has been evolving like from a third-class college, into a second-class college, then into a first-class college, can you understand what I mean?

Anyway the adiposity issue seems to be very bad for Free Software Movement because it lacks powers of persuasion of course, doesn't it? I am afraid that they are equal to saying "I am not intereted in the issues". Any objections?
Again, I am assuming that content of your post means dialectical partial some notes of your thoughts that are based on the consequences of the hyperinflation of the USA and selling all of US national bonds.

Anyway anyway thinking about how to please people is a source of my energy. It is same as the time when we are looking for a present for our precious people in a department store or somewhere... And I say this with hatred but possibly it is the same feelings as the time when they are looking for next victim.

strypey
Offline
Joined: 05/14/2015

commodore256:
> I'm fine with handouts being funded with extorted money, I'm just not fine with extorted money

Replace "extorted money" with "money collected by the state" and "the existence of the state" in that sentence, and that's pretty much how I justified living as an anarchist activist on welfare for a couple of decades.

I don't agree that taxation is extortion, but rather the fee for a service the government provides to everyone who uses money; guaranteeing that your money will continue to have value. They do this by making it compulsory for everyone within the territory they govern to accept "legal tender" (government-issued money) in payment of any debt. In fact, taxation is they key to how this works. Because everyone in the territory has to pay taxes in legal tender, that makes legal tender something everyone needs, so everyone will accept it as a payment.

This is how the first money (coins) came into existence, as anthropologist David Graeber described in 'Debt'. Kings issued coins with their faces on them to the soldiers in their armies, and imposed taxes on their subjects, which had to be paid in the coins. So the people would accept coins from the soldiers in exchange for food, lodgings, and other goods and services as the armies marched from place to place, in order to be able to pay their taxes. Both money and taxes were invented at the same time, as a mechanisms for provisioning standard armies without central planning.

So if you accept the state and money, taxation is a necessary part of that system. If you abolish centralized currency, the state can no longer provision its activities. If you abolished the state, you would abolish both legal tender and title deed enforcement, as well as tax. Which I think would be great, but YMMV ;)

I will add that I don't think it's fair when the state taxes transactions that don't make any use of legal tender. Exchanges in mutual credit systems like the LETS and Time Banks use an internal ledger don't depend in any way on the value of legal tender and can't be exchanged for them (except by voluntary agreement I guess), so they ought not to be taxed. BitCoin and other crypto-tokens function as proxy currencies for legal tender, which is what underpins their value, so transactions using those ought to be taxed (pay their service fee) just like those using legal tender directly.

andyprough
Offline
Joined: 02/12/2015

> Just on the supposition that if the USA falls into hyperinflation, what main results are expected?

Same as any other time of hyperinflation - you would see shortages of food or gas, people waiting in long lines to get food or gas, people losing their homes, etc. The working class people (majority of US population) would be very hard hit. Homelessness would rise dramatically, and that would bring along problems of epidemic diseases and starvation.

> And this is also just on the supposition that if every country sold all of US national bonds, what would occur?

This is not realistic at this time. a) There is no one to sell them "all" to. and b) Right now, US Treasury bonds are a safe haven for foreign cash, so "every country" would not want to sell "all" US Bonds, as they would lose a lot of money and take on a lot of risk. Maybe 10 or 20 years from now this could be a foreseeable problem.

> These are just stories of suppositions. I know such things will not occur actually.

They could occur in the future. Right now, we have a college education bubble in America. Some economist is warning that 25% of all American universities could close down within 20 years. If so, we would lose millions of jobs, and huge amounts of money. We may also have a healthcare bubble right now. Healthcare is 20% of the US economy, but healthcare waste, fraud and abuse is possibly as high as 35% of all healthcare spending. This is unsustainable. Also, the US has commitments for the government to pay for tens of trillions of dollars worth of healthcare and retirement benefits over the next 20 years, but there is not enough money to pay for all these things. So, at some point in the next 20 years, hyperinflation may have to be a solution to the problems. Very hard to predict.

> I am assuming that the outline of the relation between the lower classes workers and the moneylenders in Japan can be applied to the global economic inequalities between nations, too.

As far as I know, this happens in every advanced nation. The working class people (the majority of people in these countries) are basically living in debt slavery to support the banks and the bloated government institutions and the government-funded industries. It is a problem in every country with a modern economy that I am aware of. For example, China has a worse problem with this than Japan or the US.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

It is value for several weeks or months of my study in economy.

> Same as any other time of hyperinflation

How about the effects of outside of the US? from mainly the viewpoint of the inequality.
And will the currencies be (mostly) flat naturally?
I think that currency is similar to water. It goes rotten if it stops or stagnates. But usually it circulates naturally rain, river, ocean. Then basically we life can use water freely.
I think the image of water is the ideal circulation of currency. Currency should be so at least to some degree. I have not much knowledge about economy. If there are no miss economists, it is OK.
It obviously seems that currencies are extremely unevenly distributed. Like there are too, really too many dams. Like we must pay money for the government to drink the river water, to swim in the beach, to do surfing. It is strange that they don't tax those yet. It might be likely to happen in the future.

BTW currently I have been getting warnings to connect to trisquel.info is not secure now. Is there a serious problem.

TheJames
Offline
Joined: 03/04/2018

As a fourth year Queens U Economics student I mostly concur a lot of that andyprough. If I can add since this was for a little about inflation

From what I understand the selling of just Chinese owned US federal bonds would collapse the value of the US dollar. Not necessarily monetary inflation from too much being printed and loaned out, but prices would explode. What would happen after that would depend on the feds response but this would not end well. This is very unlikely. If China did this they would be in trouble themselves. Collapsing the US dollar and appreciating they'res would utterly destroy their export advantage. They can barely handle a few hundred billion is lost trade from trumps tariffs. If the Chinese Yuan appreciated while the dollar crashed, trillion in exports would disappear from the chinnese trade balance by years end. This is a no-win for them.

I also liked "There's two types of economic inequalities: One caused by having a lot of freedom and one cause by not having enough." by commodore256. Any system taken to its complete extreme is always a disaster. An economic idea working somewhere does not mean it will be in any way effective somewhere else. People are just too lazy to do things right so they rely on heuristics/what they already know.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

> Chinese owned US federal bonds would collapse the value of the US dollar.

This was my vague guess. Thank you for confirming the guess strongly. I would be able to study efficiently on it as a reliable basis.

> This is a no-win for them.

Interesting. I see.

If you have power to be able to do anything and if you think the equality is desirable, what will you do?

You seem to be kind of a realist that like you would like to say the inequality is an unavoidable consequence. There is no way to stop it. It might be a know's natural thought, though.

Can I one more question?
If I bought one dollar and sold 107 yen for it right now at a bank, and if there is no other sellers, buyers then. Can you calculate the rise of the dollar exactly? This might sound a stupid question, though. I am not a bit sure if you got the question.

TheJames
Offline
Joined: 03/04/2018

No I cant I dont clearly understand the question. Feel free to pm me and ill try to help

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

Thanks. But I would like to talk about anything as it becomes common benefit. But if I had more private question about economy, I might ask you it privately. Thanks.

I might have been a bit negligent in the way of asking, but please let me excuse, I almost always try to discuss matters with you guys until we find some degree of a consensus or an interesting idea but discussions have never completed, I feel. Of course I might cause those incomplete discussions though, anyway so maybe I was a bit negligent to compose the questions precisely when I was writing. Sorry for my rudeness.

Question 1.
Given that the US realized its long-cherished wish, that is to rule every country as one of the states of the US, and you are in charge of economic policy of the empire.
There are unbelievable terrible economic inequalities everyplace in the world.
One of your important tasks is to correct the inequalities.
What do you do to correct the inequalities? Note: you don't have to read somebody's expression to correct it. You can do it as you wish.

Question 2.
What factors determine an exchange rate or a currency value at an unspecified time?
If I exchanged one Canadian dollar for 81.14 yen right now at a bank, does it effect immediately to Canadian dollar-Japanese yen exchange rate? (and does it effect (immediately) to other currencies exchange rates, too?)

I have been sometimes searching the answer for the web for quite a long time, but I have not found a good article. From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_rate

In this article, there is the item about the factors affecting the change of exchange rate. Sure, it explains what factors affect the change of exchange rate. But it does not seem to explain why the current Canadian dollar-Japanese yen exchange rate is 1:81.14. If the rate changed from 81.14 to 81.15, that means something happened. What/who determine the number (0.1)? Why it is neither 0.2 nor 0.3 but 0.1? Well, this is very difficult to explain :) Did you get it?

Edit: 0.1 > 0.01
AISO, math was my weakest subject.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

I studied a bit about Neo-corporatism. There is a data on Holland economy and it seems that the average working time of people in Holland is 4 days per a week. I did not know that. I got strong interest in the economy of Northern Europe. I am going to study about it. Is there a user of Northern Europe? I would like to ask the real feelings of the economy systems, though.

About the inequality, I got a question what the ideal state is from the view point of the economic equality between nations from the beginning. Do you have a comprehensive thought of it? If I imagine the literal equality, it is something like an communistic thing. Equal pay for equal work. Or the perfect equality might mean that equal pay for equal time, worldwide. Every person earns same money for same time. This certainly seems to be equal.
But we would be able to have various questions about the equality. Or is that a thing that we should pursue?

What is the ideal state of economic equality?
I am not asking these questions frivolously.

GNUser
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2013

This should be in Troll Lounge. Not here. This is the kind of thing why people wanted to ban the OP.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

> This should be in Troll Lounge. Not here.

Please explain why to me and convince me. The subject seems to belong to "Free Culture". If you convinced me of why this subject should be in Troll Lounge, I would not have any objection to moving this to Troll Lounge. You users should explain why and details when you state this kind of things to convince. I am bored with this kind of claims frankly. Because no one try to convince me with a convincing explanation.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

And would you please clarify the range of "free culture" and "related topics" to avoid this kind of exchanges? Or I am going to ask the mod each time I post in this place.

GNUser
Offline
Joined: 07/17/2013

Trisquel Users : Posts that are directly related to Trisquel, be it a bug report or a suggestion, or an hack.

General Free Software Talk : Posts that are related to Free SOFTWARE (or at the very least free online services in light of SaaSS) but are not directly involved in Trisquel. I understand some confusion between this and the main forum at times.

Troll Lounge : Any off-topic posts. Anything that is not software related or Trisquel specific belongs there.

But post wherever you see fit, I am not the mods. THis is simply a basic understanding of the FOrum.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

General Free Software Talk : A place to discuss free software, free culture, online privacy and related topics.

This is my basic understanding of the place "General Free Software Talk".
It is troublesome to ask someone each time I post. But I would like to avoid this kind of troubles, too.
It seems to be better to post this kind of related topics and about free culture in troll lounge.
I doubt if anyone complains about it. "This should be in General Free Software Talk..."

What the "free culture" mean? I really have been wanting to post on the proper place. Maybe this question will end this exchange.

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

In other thread, I mentioned the action of athletes as medium for advertisement.
I am going to deflate prices of painting_s_. That is obviously bubble. I am going to write details of the bubble in other chance but I am not sure about the fact that a person who has not kensho-ed or a company purchasing a painting for billions of yen and "owning" it_,_from a view point of a painter.
Some soccer players also earn billions of yen a year.
I think it is very similar to the economic inequalites of the world. As if certain people want to say that it is natural that only a few elites earn billion... At least if I could be a famous painter, I would open my every work to the public. Because I believe that some kind of paintings are _things_ for the people, not for the elites or the system, not for the pupe or that called king. As I wrote, I think basically soccer is also _a thing_for the people, not for them. Players would be able to earn enough money from only ticket sales. Of course their income will go down, but they will be free from the system.

Edit: added _ _. and a few elites earning -> a few elites earn

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

And rejecting being as advertisement for the system does not require something special thing. If every professional soccer player can cooperate with each other to reject being a dog of the system, they should be able to do it. It requires only the rigid intention of rejecting things belong to politics. But... do they want to be free? or from the beginning, do they understand such a...

Masaru Suzuqi
Offline
Joined: 06/06/2018

Don't you get mad at the peepers who have thoroughly peeped your precious private memories? I do. I really do. What they did is unforgivable. How can you cool in the face of such an insult? But you can get mad at my provocation?? How tough you are. They *re fucking with you. Excuse me.