Free software foundations problems

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s1lv3r
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Joined: 10/29/2017

Hi everyone
i wanted to talk about the fsf problems, this is my point of view and i wanted to know what you guys think about this topic.
I know that fsf is a no profit but the way the act make no sence to me.
Here there is an example https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html, this is the fsf recomended gnu/linux distros page, many distro here are dead or about to be(for the exception of parabola and pureOS)
Probably that page is the most important on the gnu website, for obvious reasons,and is not hard work to update that page, but is like fsf couldn't care less.
Imagine, you are a guy without computer skills, you hear about free software and fsf and you want to give it a try, you go on the gnu website and choose to download one of the recomended distros here, only to find out that the project is either dead or not updated, you probably go back to windows and think free software is a joke.
I know that on that page there is written that fsf is not responsible for other web sites, or how up-to-date their information is,but still,these are the best distro for them, and some are far from the best...
This is only bad for fsf.
Another example, let's talk about Trisquel, i love Trisquel, and i know that is developed by volunteers but still tha last release is Trisquel7 (2014), and i know that Trisquel8 will be released soon, but 4 years?
This lead to the next point, i find this info on this forum, fsf hired Ruben (the main trisquel developer) to work for them, and only recently Ruben started to work again full time on trisquel.
This is really a bad move by them, what are they thinking?
They should instead hire Ruben for work full time on Trisquel
Trisquel is the most used and user friendly fsf endorsed distro, and they leave the project without a new release?
One of the best fsf endorsed distro leaved to die?
What you guys think?
This post is my opinion, is not a troll post, if you don't agree with feel free to post why but please no flame.
As always sorry for my bad english.
s1lv3r

ADFENO
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Joined: 12/31/2012

> https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html, this is the fsf
> recomended gnu/linux distros page, many distro here are dead or about
> to be(for the exception of parabola and pureOS)

Trisquel, Dyne:bolic, Ututo, and so on are not dead ([1]).

[1]
http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2018-01/msg00002.html
. See the entire thread for proofs and discussion on improvements to the
page you mentioned. The discussion is still going.

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s1lv3r
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Joined: 10/29/2017

thanks for you answer adfeno the thread you posted is really intresting

ADFENO
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> thanks for you answer adfeno the thread you posted is really intresting

You're welcome! ;)

quantumgravity
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Joined: 04/22/2013

You're making some valid points.
I don't think that the fsf should really "exclude" any of those distros or label it as the "best" or "most recommended" one, but they definitely
should make more categories and should put the ones on top that are targeting the broadest audience. "dragora" for instance should be listed, but not as present as trisquel.
Also, it would be good to have a "most actively developed distros" list, excluding ones with little development progress.

s1lv3r
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Joined: 10/29/2017

i totaly agree with you a most actively developed distro would be awesome and maybe add uruk and hyperbola

akito
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Joined: 05/10/2017

The free distro's has different person assigned to them and mostly they are bei g developed by volunteers around the globe that is why they appear to be dead, mostly are probably developing on their own free time. Trisquel 8 has some issues that blocks the release and you can probably help to sort it out. I do not know if fsf funds the main developers.

FindEssential
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Joined: 08/23/2017

Firstly, you are correct, and this is a point I have made too. At minimum Blag and Musix should be removed from the list, but to insure the list remains up to date distros should have to re-certify every few years. This way the FSF will know if this project is active. They could even have an "inactive" list on the same page if a project fires back up within a reasonable time frame.

Second, Trisquel is an LTS release. This means that it will go years without an update, that is the point. LTS is stability over cutting edge. If one wants cutting edge they should utilize a rolling release distro like Parabola. However, even using that stick Trisquel 8 is late, in fact the next LTS release of Ubuntu will be out before 8 is done.

That said, as someone who uses LTS specifically for stability this doesn't really bother me. As long as the next version of Trisquel is out before the current one reaches its end of life in 2019 I am happy. Now, if this community is unable to muster an updated LTS release that mirrors Ubuntu's schedule that should just be said outright. I would be completely accepting of an LTS focused distro that skips every other Ubuntu LTS release, as long as the current version doesn't lose support, and fresh ISO's are supplied for newer users. I would be equally supportive of an ETS release. The problem is Trisquel says it follows Ubuntu's schedule when it is clear it can't. This doesn't mean there is a huge problem, but rather that stated goals need to reflect reality.

Trisquel's development doesn't reflect at all on the FSF, like all distro's (except GuixSD I believe) they are independent. FSF set the standards for the community to follow and communities change over time. This is very common. Ruben has a day job working in something that reflects is personal values, thats something to be respected, not derided.

s1lv3r
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I totaly respect Ruben, the fact is that fsf use Trisquel, and they recommend it to newcomers, hire Ruben to work with them was a bad move, but this is just my opinion, instead of hire the main developer of one of the best free sistems out there they should have hired someone else, or maybe hire Ruben to work full time on Trisquel, and support the project economically.

FindEssential
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Trisquel is Ruben's project, connected to a for profit venture related to free software consulting. That has led to his employment at the FSF. The FSF provides logistical support through all the packages it maintains and services it provides, without that Trisquel would not be possible at all. The relationship is symbiotic.

Rubens employment has nothing to do with Trisquel, and the FSF needs good people to keep the fight for free software going. The man needs to make a living and FSF has software that needs development. Trisquel is a volunteer only operation, no money is made here. That he didn't drop developing Trisquel is a huge thing. It really speaks to his commitment.

The FSF can't just employ people for anything. They have grant requirements, ongoing campaigns, and so forth. Playing favorites with endorsed distros could cause issues with the wider FSF community. FSF recommends Trisquel, but they also recommend the other distros based on what the user needs.

fbit

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I assume the FSF hired Rubén because he was a good candidate for the job position they were seeking to fill (maybe Rubén applied for the job also, I dont know). Don't you think it would be unfair if he did not get a job as a sysadmin at FSF because he helps to make an FSF endorsed distro in his free time? That sounds unfair to me. His paid job should be kept separate from his unpaid activities by his employers. Is it unfortunate that he took a full-time paid position with FSF instead of continuing to volunteer all his free time to Trisquel? I suppose it depends on your perspective. I can see your point, I just don't agree with it.

You state he should be paid to develop Trisquel. Why should the FSF choose Trisquel as the one endorsed distro to support financially? AFAIK they have already given it quite a boost compared to others by using it exclusively as the FSF chosen distro (and openly saying so. RMS also openly states he uses Trisquel) and by gifting USB ISO cards with Trisquel live on them.

I understand Trisquel is easy to use and has traditionally been well made, but I think sponsoring with a full time salary and not the others would be very unfair.

You assume Trisquel should receive the most financial backing because it's the easiest to use. Why should that be the standard for the FSF to financially reward software projects? The mission of the FSF is very clear: "The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all software users." It does not mention anywhere that their mission is to have as many new rookie users as possible. I'm not saying it's not good to attract new users, I just don't see why you assume that should be the guiding force of the FSF. Other free softare users might also disagree with this position. AFAIK RMS has stated before that attracting the most number of users is not the guiding force. Neither is making the most powerful software possible.

Personally, the long time it has taken for Trisquel 8 to be released has been a blessing in disguise. I have discovered other distros that I might not have bothered to discover, I have furthered my knowledge of GNU/Linux out of necessity, etc.

Meanwhile, Trisquel 7 is still easy to use and definitely welcoming to new, rookie users. Free software depends on a community. If Trisquel is being left to die, it is being left to die by its community (or it is not correctly fostering community support, though I don't really know enough to make a judgement).

fbit

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Typo: s/fair/unfair

s1lv3r
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Thanks for sharing your point of view, you have some good points.

Aforrado
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Trisquel 7 (2014)
Trisquel 8 (2018, maybe?)

4 Years doesn't seem like a lot of time, i mean. It's better to have a stable distro with security updates (like Trisquel was doing the last 4 years) instead of a distro with one 'final' version each year.

SuperTramp83

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>By the way, why there are too many men who let women take risk?
Hunting is men's job. Women have a pretension to wait the food and want stability.
Why such many men want a stability like women... he is already not a man as my opinion.
So many women start

que pero que?

(nsasdjasnfjasfnjsfsjfnafnwekjwnefkjweg)

Jodiendo
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SuperTramp83 SAID

By the way, why there are too many men who let women take risk?
Hunting is men's job. Women have a pretension to wait the food and want stability.
Why such many men want a stability like women... he is already not a man as my opinion.
So many women start

Respectfully I disagree totally with you on this one. When I serve in the army, one of our snipers was an instructor and fully qualified sniper, she was a woman who was deadly in hand to hand combat and weapons. she distinguished her self in combat with 25 confirmed kills, plus she was a beautiful female and with a humble personality and dedicated to the job , was married with two boys, she did earn our total respect from the unit. she serve 20 years and retired.

chaosmonk

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I am a translator!

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> And when you got some objections to me, please tell it to ME
> straight, if you don't like back biting.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Perhaps someone reported or downvoted one of your posts? (I can't see votes from the mailing list.) However, I don't mind telling you directly that your recent posts are off-topic and, although I am sensitive to the language barrier and may misunderstand you, come across as misogynistic. If they were downvoted, it was an appropriate use of the voting system (for once). I suggest returning to issues relevant to Trisquel and software freedom.

Abdullah Ramazanoglu
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Dear MSuzuqi San,

Such topics are more relevant to discuss in the "troll lounge" forum. It is for general free-style conversations. This forum (trisquel-users) is dedicated to topics related to Trisquel and its usage.

You are right in that there are sometimes "borderline" off-topic posts here, but they are not downvoted because it is somehow remotely relevant to the current discussion. By the way, I didn't downvote your post. Someone else downvoted it (I don't know who). And you are also right in that, there are sometimes really off-topic posts that are not downvoted. Also there are sometimes semi-offtopic posts which are downvoted. It is the drawback of voting system. Voting depends on whims of users, which change according to current mood of a user. So it is not very reliable.

I am not entitled to speak for Mr. mason but think with "language barrier" he means miscommunication possibility due to errors in the language used. E.g. two English would understand each other easily, but a Turk and a Japanese, communicating over English language, may misunderstand each other because of the "language barrier" (a barrier to error-free communication). So Mr. mason says that he *might* have misunderstood what you really want to say.

With "misogynistic" I think Mr. mason means putting women as second class citizens. There are certain differences in western and eastern cultures. One culture sees women as independent and "equal" citizens (that automatically includes equality in being subjected to harshness of life) and other sees them as flowers to be protected and nourished. You see, this has nothing to do with Trisquel operating system and its usage.

So maybe if you can start a thread in the troll-lounge, then there may be participants to your discussion. But trisquel-users forum is not appropriate place for these kind of (unrelated to Trisquel) discussions.

Best wishes

fbit

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>With "misogynistic" I think Mr. mason means putting women as second class citizens. There are
>certain differences in western and eastern cultures. One culture sees women as independent
>and "equal" citizens (that automatically includes equality in being subjected to harshness of
>life) and other sees them as flowers to be protected and nourished.

There are ~4.5 billion people living in Asia (more than half of the world's population, speaking more than 2,000 languages in 48 countries and who knows how many cultures). Are you calling the majority of them, or their cultures, misogynistic? This is a very good example of orientalism (I recommend reading Edward Said for interesting context).

Edit: You said Eastern, not Asian...who knows how many cultures that entails. Of course, culturally East and West are imaginary creations (with Australia somehow in the West ftw).

chaosmonk

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> If that means my latest two posts above, I don't think these are
> not entirely off-topic. Do you really think those are off-topic?

Any observations you have about gender are not related to the Free Software Foundation, or with Trisquel or even software in general. This is why they are off-topic.

> And although I am a new user, but I think that I learned
> from user's conversation that a user can post a off-topic
> sometimes. I can find those off-topic posts.

If you are a new user I can see why you would think that off-topic posts are normal here. For the last 1-2 months a large number of threads have been blown up with long, off-topic subthreads. Before that, this would happen only occasionally, usually on the topic of systemd. I hope that things return to normal soon. Many of the off-topic posts you see belong in the troll lounge. If you would like to have off-topic discussions, the troll lounge would be the appropriate place.

> >, although I am sensitive to the language barrier
>
> I don't understand clearly what you mean.

I mean that English is not your first language and I do not speak your language at all, so it is difficult for us to understand each other. Therefore, when I think I disagree with something you say, I must also consider that I misunderstand what you say.

> Don't you really understand why I posted the my latest unfavorable
> statement? (especially at the part of EDIT:).

Mailing list users do not see edits. I just looked at the forum to see what your edit said. It also seems unrelated to the FSF, Trisquel, or software. If you want to discuss that topic further, I suggest that you do it in the troll lounge.

> I want to ask these to the
> person who downvoted the post. Is this demand unreasonable?
> Again, In this curcumstance, I don't understand why did you
> downvote the post. May I ask you the reason?

I have made a guess as to why your post was downvoted, but I cannot know for certain. My advice is to ignore it. Voting is a poor way to communicate, so it is difficult to know what someone was thinking when they downvote something. Whoever did it might not even return to this thread and see you asking for clarification. Obsessing over it is a waste of time.

Abdullah Ramazanoglu
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[heyjoe]
> "tcpdump" shows different :)
[/heyjoe]

:))

Good one! ツ

-------

[fbit]
> Are you calling the majority of them, or their cultures, misogynistic?
[/fbit]

Oh no. I was simply saying that, something regarded as normal and logical in culture A can be regarded as "misogynistic" in culture B. Conversely, something regarded as normal and logical in culture B can be regarded as "ruthless" in culture A.

I would have delved more into that, if this was a topic in the troll lounge.

-------

[MSuzuqi]
> Because I am embarrased about you are talking this matter, you know?
[/MSuzuqi]

OK. Sorry I didn't mean to embarrass you.

Abdullah Ramazanoglu
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> Please look up the left side picture. Can you see a smiling person's side face? This was made by a laundry.

Oh! You said "side face", but I have just looked at your profile picture carefully (with %300 zoom) and it is actually a human face from *two angles*. One is a profile ("side face") from left (head tilted down, the visible eye in the picture is the left eye), and the other is direct portrait from across (head tilted sideways, the visible eye is again the left eye). The nose, forehead and left cheek are the same (nose, forehead and left cheek) in both faces.

Is it deliberate art, or am I hallucinating?

Note: I didn't understand what you meant with "made by a laundry". -- Nearby a laundry? Or act of a laundry? Laundry means "laundry shop" or "laundry machine" or "someone who does laundry"? I didn't understand it.

Edit: Both angles look like a mixture of unhappy and deeply thinking (almost sleeping) man, but the profile (side face) is less unhappy more thinking, and the portrait (from across) is more unhappy less thinking. It is interesting that in both perspectives you caught almost the same facial expression.

Abdullah Ramazanoglu
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> I don't understand what you mean the "two angles".
> Would you draw that and upload the screenshot instead of language explanation?

My drawing is worse than my language. So it is better to explain with words. :)

With two angles, I mean one picture from across your face (portrait, 0 degree angle) and another picture from your side (profile, 90 degrees angle). For example when you take a selfie, you take it as a portrait picture. When the police takes pictures of an arrested man, they take one picture from across (called portrait), and another picture from the side (called profile).

Note: I said portrait looks more unhappy than profile, but now I look it again and both angles now seem like the same facial expression. But I am not sure. The more I look at it, the more my perception changes.

Abdullah Ramazanoglu
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> Shall we continue this in the troll lounge.

Just one more explanation. If it is still not clear, we continue on the troll lounge.

The picture changes according to your imagination. It is two pictures in one picture indeed.

If you look into the picture one way, there is a man facing you directly. His head is tilted sideways and he is looking down. He is facing you, i.e. you are directly in front of him. You are seeing his full face. (This front view is easier to detect. When I look at the picture, I see it easily.)

If you look into the picture another way, there is a man who turned his left side (90 degrees) to you. His head is tilted towards the floor and he is looking down. You are seeing his left side. You are seeing the left half of his face. (This side view is more difficult to detect. In order to detect the side view, I have to look longer and more carefully and try to recognize it.)

The police pictures were just examples. Please forget it if it was unclear. I meant that the picture has two separate perceptions (views). One view is similar to a portrait photo taken by the police from across, and the other view is similar to a profile photo taken by the police from the side. I have given this example because the police takes two distinct photos of an arrested man (a direct picture and a side picture), and your picture has the same two distinct photos of a man's face (depending on how you look at the picture).

If it is still unclear, please start a topic in the troll lounge, and I will join.

Jodiendo
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Abdullah Ramazanoglu said:

Shall we continue this in the troll lounge

The troll lounge in my opinion it is a legacy of trisquel unique forums. i Was irritated when they change the forum name to 'miscellaneous', finally that same night, they did change back again to "the troll lounge". TRISQUEL IS where I learn a lot about FSF, and GNU/LINUX .

I'm curious, How did you learn about GNU/LINUX?
enjoy

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

Jodiendo is just a troll. He makes nonsense up for the fun of it. Nothing he says should ever be taken seriously whatsoever, and most of it is incoherent anyway.

つまり、Jodiendoさんのポストは必ずただのじょうだんです。笑ってわすれてくださいね。それとも、読まなくてもいいです。

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

Oh god, you saw my Japanese a year ago? What's the blush emoticon? xD