gNewSense 3.0 beta 1
Hi very exciting news here http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=07871
I will test it right away. And give my opinion can you also give some feedback.
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I am not sure why one would need a 100% free version of an outdated Debian. It is easier to not use the non-free repositories and install Icecat as a replacement for Iceweasel than to try and update an outdated system completely. Debian is outdated enough as it is.
I understand that RMS needs gNewSense, because he can't use a distro not recommended by the FSF in good conscience, but at the same time he needs it to support his Lemote Yeeloong. This just narrows the choice to one possibility.
If I'd be interested in using Debian though, I'd take Debian and avoid the tiny fractions of non-free stuff that are in it.
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For various reasons I need to duel boot. I have tried many distros but not happy with them, read up on debian and whilst everybody seems to agree it is a bit outdated they also say it is very robust. I have installed Ver 7 with XFCE desktop and it does every thing I want it to and lies happily alongside Trisquel on My HD
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This is exactly what I meant, if you want Debian, take Debian. It can't be recommended for newcomers, because it should not be the users job to double check if the software they use is fully without freedom issues, but then again Debian shouldn't be recommended for newcomers at all, that's what Trisquel is for, a distro easy to get into and "user friendly".
nitpick:
>duel boot
dual boot
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/duel
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dual
On 22/05/13 06:12, cyberhawk wrote:
> I am not sure why one would need a 100% free version of an outdated
> Debian. It is easier to not use the non-free repositories and
> install Icecat as a replacement for Iceweasel than to try and update
> an outdated system completely. Debian is outdated enough as it is.
Outdated is a matter of opinion. :-) gNewSense 3.0 is more up-to-date
than 2.3 (based on Ubuntu 8.04, which was EOL'd a few weeks ago).
Working on a stable set of packages allows the gNewSense devs to focus
more on freedom-related bugs. You can see the bugs they fix at this page:
https://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/?group=gnewsense
It would be ideal if future versions could be closer to Debian release
dates, but that's limited to the time developers spend working on it.
> I understand that RMS needs gNewSense, because he can't use a distro
> not recommended by the FSF in good conscience, but at the same time
> he needs it to support his Lemote Yeeloong. This just narrows the
> choice to one possibility.
Actually there are two free distros that support the Yeeloong -
gNewSense and Parabola.
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I'd rather see Debian following the FSF guidelines more closely, disabling their non-free repos and altering Iceweasel to not recommend non-free software.
Parabola is a cool distro, hopefully I'll find more time in the future to get into it. I think RMS decided to use gNewSense before Parabola was even out, which was somewhere around 2009.
It's my understanding that you have to go out of your way to enable the non-free repos in vanilla Deb.
And that the Debian Project developers have voted several times on bumping themselves up to FSF levels of purity, though the proposal has always failed.
That said, I think your first point was mostly right. There's not much reason for anyone with half a clue to install Gnewsense (instead of Debian), unless you count that extra purity as making the world a better place. And hell, maybe it does.
The FSF taking a hard line is a good thing.
The Debian project having a social contract, no corporate overlords, and opting to be the Universal Distro--a very good thing too.
If Gnewsense is where universality meets orthodoxy, then that's win/win. I doubt I'll need a permanent partition with this particular distro, but I'm glad to see it finally update nevertheless.
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Certainly it's a good thing that there are programmers working on a fully free distribution. There is no arguing that it's a good thing FSF doesn't compromise their ideals for including Debian as a recommended distro. I agree with you there. FSF not including them will just mean Debian will, at some point, fix the last tiny problems they got and be included. They obviously want to, they just need time for whatever reason.
Personally, I'd never use Debian for anything else than a server with pure CLI. On my main machine, I want to have the newest stable desktop environments, the newest browsers, office suits and other things. You just don't get this with Debian, or gNewSense (at least not out of the box and why should I do lots of work if same process has been done for another distro already?).
And on a machine without an XServer... Who cares if Iceweasel suggests non-free addons? Making a new distribution just because the browser suggests non-free addons and there is a repo with non-free stuff in it that you could enable, seems too much for me. Couldn't it be just a separate package (called your-freedom or whatever) that you install in Debian, that replaces Iceweasel and removes the entry for the non-free repo from your sources.list? Every time you'd try to install something from the non-free repo anyway, it would conflict with "your-freedom" and require it to be removed.
Do you know what exactly is the problem with debian and the fsf?
Is it the existence of the non-free repos or the default Iceweasel or both?
I think it would be very easy to create a Debian flavour distribution, called, for example, "debian libre" which full fills the fsf guidelines, even for people without great technical skills.
Here's what gnu.org/distros says:
> Debian's Social Contract states the goal of making Debian entirely free
> software, and Debian conscientiously keeps nonfree software out of the
> official Debian system. However, Debian also provides a repository of
> nonfree software. According to the project, this software is “not part of
> the Debian system,” but the repository is hosted on many of the project's
> main servers, and people can readily learn about these nonfree packages by
> browsing Debian's online package database.
>
> There is also a “contrib” repository; its packages are free, but some of
> them exist to load separately distributed proprietary programs. This too is
> not thoroughly separated from the main Debian distribution.
>
> Previous releases of Debian included nonfree blobs with Linux, the kernel.
> With the release of Debian 6.0 (“squeeze”) in February 2011, these blobs
> have been moved out of the main distribution to separate packages in the
> nonfree repository. However, the problem partly remains: the installer in
> some cases recommends these nonfree firmware files for the peripherals on
> the machine.
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I'll check it out. I used to run gNewSense on my eee PC 701 and it worked well. I don't think I would use it as my primary distribution though.
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Testing now - seems a serious competitor to Trisquel, The only downside I have found so far is that it doesn't have a 'software center' or forum.
On 12/06/13 09:11, n3ptun3jvpit3r wrote:
> Why can't the developers put those repos in there?
Once 3.0 is released it *sounds* like they might start working on the
next version rather than working on backports. Which makes more sense,
since Squeeze will probably be EOL in early 2014.
Andrew.
There is an overview video around:
In 2016: gNewSense 4 based on Debian 7 Wheezy and Debian 8 released :-P
gNewSense 3 based on Debian Squeeze? With GNOME 2.30 and others softwares from 2009-2010 in 2013-2014?
Comparing this version is like Trisquel 4 Taranis from 2010, the same version of software.
I agree with Cyberhawk.
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Who is the intended user of Gnewsense? What does it offer that Trisquel
and Parabola do not, that is, except for old software?
The intended user is someone who wants the same primary advantage provided by Trisquel, but for whatever reason (stability, canonical shenanigns) wants a Debian based distro, not an Ubuntu one.
I think what most of us are saying is: with a few minor exceptions, that's the same niche filled by:
Debian.
(Edit: GnewSense might become a lot more relevant in a few years. If for instance, Canonical succeeds in their drive to split the Linux community down Mir/Wayland lines, then Trisquel as a distro is going to face some hard choices. As will a lot of other Ubuntu-based distros.)
You could see the upcoming version of gNewSense as the result of the learning process of the new maintainer.
I guess, if it would be an easy thing to do, the maintainer of any libre distribution would be happy to release early the most up to date version of the distro. But that is not the case. There are many users and just a few developers.
Here's an answer of the current maintainer about why not base gNewSense 3 on Debian Wheezy:
Why gNewSense chose OpenOffice instead LibreOffice?
Ok I've tested, it's fast and the DE is gnome 2. The distro is rebooting so I understand that they are going slowly. But a totally free debian is necessary in my opinion. You take the top 10 in Distrowatch, we have our ubnuntu-based totally free, our arch-based totally free. And now soon our debian-based. In the future I hope to see a forum of totally free distros talking about how to spread the message not to waste time in silly comments about icons, themes, out of date and stable etc.
Debian 7 (Wheezy) is the latest stable release that came out recently and should be supported for 2 years and then become oldstable like version 6 (Squeeze) is now. It supports many architectures (even BSD and Hurd kernels) and the kernel by default does not include non-free components from what I heard.
The big thing that gets many people into a tizzy is that they offer a "non-free" repository which includes non-free software. If people want to be wise, they just run normal Debian without that repository and their naturally free kernel and firmware.
The "contrib" repository is kinda iffy though as some say that it may also include potentially non-free software. This is where I actually seeing Ubuntu being more clear with their packages (besides the kernel) by having the restricted and multiverse repositories. Wording wise, I can understand what restricted means but multiverse is confusing. On any Ubuntu install I have, I just stick with main and universe and have never needed to utilize the non-free repos.
As for RMS still using that laptop, how much longer is he going to be using that outdated and old hardware?
> As for RMS still using that laptop, how much longer is he going to be using
> that outdated and old hardware?
Well, that's simple: until he finds better hardware that offers complete freedom (including a free BIOS).
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If a Debian installer were to be made such that it did not recommend
non-free firmware, even when hardware detection would normally cause it
to do this, Would Debian then meet the free distro guideline? Such a
Debian would, essentially, be a new Trisquel. Here in Trisquel 6,
there's nothing, except my desire to keep it free, to prevent me from
adding software from Ubuntu Multiverse or ppas.
Best,
Dave
A big problem with Debian is their documentation and support are full of recommendations for proprietary software. Some of which are in the non-free repo which supposedly isn't a part of Debian...
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Some software contained in Debian recommends non-free software, for instance Kopete includes a "Skype buttons" Mozilla plugin.
I don't see any hope for gnewsense.
Even for me (I liked Debian very much and I want to use 100% free system), it is not attractive.
Many people consider debian stable as too old - how would anyone want to use oldstable? And how many of these people are interested in 100% free?
The gnewsense maintainers should join the trisquel developers. This would be sensible.
On 06/06/13 17:44, shiretoko wrote:
> I don't see any hope for gnewsense. Even for me (I liked Debian very
> much and I want to use 100% free system), it is not attractive. Many
> people consider debian stable as too old - how would anyone want to
> use oldstable? And how many of these people are interested in 100%
> free?
>
> The gnewsense maintainers should join the trisquel developers. This
> would be sensible.
Unless Trisquel supports MIPS (which Ubuntu does not, officially), I
doubt that would happen.
Andrew.
I don't know anything about MIPS, but I guess it's an architecture which is obviously supported by debian.
Since I would appreciate trisquel using debian as its base, I only see even more advantages for all of us.
Consider trisquel switching to debian:
1. its base will be more free-software minded
2. ubuntu makes more and more its own way, it will get more incompatible with other distros and so on.... best thing trisquel can do is leaving it
3. we would open the doors for gnewsense developers, who can stop wasting time maintaining this out-dated distro.
The issue is that, if I'm not mistaken, the Trisquel developers believe there should be a libre version of Ubuntu. That's because of the polish that Canonical provides, along with the amount of support for Ubuntu based derivatives. (A la PPAs)
I think we're at the sweet spot right now. We have a free
1) Debian
2) Ubuntu
Unfortunately, I really want to use gnome 3, so no free debian for me....
beside the fact that debian can easily be made 100% free;
that's the point I don't understand:
since gnewsense is 100% free debian, what's so hard maintaining this distro?
I just have to remove non-free and contrib, remove iceweasel and install icecat and I'm almost done?
I don't want to depreciate the gnewsense maker, I really want to know what's the problem.
> that's the point I don't understand:
> since gnewsense is 100% free debian, what's so hard maintaining this distro?
> I just have to remove non-free and contrib, remove iceweasel and
> install icecat and I'm almost done?
http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/gnewsense/packages-parkes/ lists all
source packages modified in 3.0. There are also many removed packages
at
http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/gnewsense/debderiver/annotate/head:/examples/filters/parkes.yaml
that could be fixed and included.
The scripts for making a derived distro took a long time to write too.
The developers have work or other projects and at least some of them had
to learn much of this during the 3.0 development.
Don't forget 3)Parabola based on Arch
and 4) BLAG based on fedora
The problem is that we don't have a cutting edge Debian and also Fedora totally free.
BLAG is waaaaay too far behind Fedora to be even remotely useful. The "current" version is based on Fedora 14, which reached end-of-life over a year ago. I tried BLAG some time ago and found the software to be horribly outdated (IceCat, in particular, was at version 5 and couldn't use any extensions that I tried) while still being just as prone to stuff being broken as Fedora always is. I've looked a the forum briefly, and it seems (IIRC) that the problem is some major contributor died and there's little in the way of focused development now.
On 08/06/13 03:38, onpon4 wrote:
> that the problem is some major contributor died
Jeff Moe is still alive, if that's who you're talking about. :-) He
started the company that creates the FSF-approved LulzBot 3D printer.
BLAG seems to be dead (at least at the moment), but at least Freed-ora
is still being maintained.
Andrew.
I had installed gNewSense 3.0 beta earlier today & posted onto this forum. I don't know where the post went, it never posted apparently through Iceweasel 3.6.15 which comes with gNewSense 3.0 beta. I just installed Trisquel 6.0 and it's blazing fast & updated and very nice! I want 100% libre software and freedom supporting community. The gNewSense 3.0 has its heart in the right place, but for the intermediate user, it's a bit difficult for example to install IceCat and the other software is very old/outdated.