How do I stop distro-hopping?

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calher

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Thinking of Fedora, because GNU copied its FSDG from there, and GNU says the only issue is its kernel firmware, which I should be able to easily remove.

Debian is more difficult, because it uses different definition of free software.

Trisquel is going to end up like gNewSense: constantly not catching up to the current LTS.

Parabola is not good, because I suck at making a nice system that Just Works. Also, pizzaiolo left Parabola because Emulatorman abandoned it, and it looks like Parabola won't be getting enough care.

GuixSD is beta, and IDK how to encrypt my drive on that thing.

gd_scania
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Arch also has no stock nonfree repo, but allowing external repo to contain nonfree apps like AUR, and mis-tolerating nonfree drivers and firmware, so nonfree Linux kernels.
Fedora honestly has no stock nonfree repo, but allowing external repo to contain nonfree apps like RPMfusion, and mis-tolerating nonfree drivers and firmware, so nonfree Linux kernels.

Commenting here means Trisquel wont die upto now, here is also a forums for any GNU systems like Parabola, Uruk, gNewSense, LibertyBSD, Hyperbola.
Not yet to try GuixSD which they are yet early beta, but you can use the Guix package manager sources to port for Parabola and Trisquel.

Magic Banana

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Arch also has no policy about not distributing nonfree software through their normal channels.
Fedora does have a clear policy about what can be included in the distribution, and it seems to be followed carefully.
https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

That makes a difference. Substitute Fedora's kernel with Linux-libre and you have a GNU/Linux distribution that is as free as Debian GNU/Linux (without enabling the "contrib" and "nonfree" sections of the package repository). On the contrary, with Arch, you may end up installing proprietary software from the default repository.

About third-party package repositories, the distributions are not responsible for them! Adding to Trisquel's repositories a PPA with proprietary software is easy. Of course, the Trisquel project does not recommend to add such repositories (distributions doing so should be criticized for that). See https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

gd_scania
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SuSE TW (in contrary to SLE from the same SuSE company) also clearly isolates nonfree repo as well as Debian, does appending Freedora also full liberate SuSE TW (with disabling every nonfree repo) like Fedora?
For urpmi distro we already have Uruk, a Trisquel derivative, not having a need anymore to liberate ROSA, Mageia, or openMandriva, right?
Finally, I need to recommend LibertyBSD removing every nonfree over openBSD, but not yet approved due to BSD licensing clauses?

Here, I have issues signing Freedora keys into SuSE TW, I dunno which commands are needed to be run.

Magic Banana

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For urpmi distro we already have Uruk, a Trisquel derivative, not having a need anymore to liberate ROSA, Mageia, or openMandriva, right?

The interface to the package manager is not the whole distribution.

Finally, I need to recommend LibertyBSD removing every nonfree over openBSD, but not yet approved due to BSD licensing clauses?

Both BSD licenses are free software license. I guess FSF's distro reviewing work of LibertyBSD has not been achieved yet. That is all.

calher

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> Substitute Fedora's kernel with Linux-libre and you have a GNU/Linux
> distribution that is as free as Debian GNU/Linux

Is it not *more* free, since the GNU FSDG comes from Fedora, whereas
Debian's guidelines and free software definition are more lax?

Magic Banana

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When it comes to endorsing a distribution, I do not think it matters much where the inspiration for the criteria comes from. Debian provides "contrib" and "nonfree" (hosted on the project's servers). Fedora has, by default, a kernel with proprietary firmware. If you wish, you can deem a problem worse than the other, hence the related distro "more free". Personally I would say Debian's problem, although real ( https://www.gnu.org/distros/optionally-free-not-enough.html ), is less grave than shipping proprietary firmware by default.

ivanB1975
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You could build your own:)

calher

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I wish I could just help Trisquel, but Trisquel doesn't communicate much, and IDK what's happening in the code because there's no documentation of what's happening and hwat needs to be done.

ivanB1975
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There is the link to the issues. you could start from there. An example even if related to trisquel 7: https://trisquel.info/en/issues/22926
some users complain about old kernel. Someone could compile and package a new kernel and create a ppa repo. Ps I am not a developer from trisquel and the example is just an hypothesis on how I would look for something to do if I would have time.

clinsc
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correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can use jxselfs repo to get a newer kernel on Trisquel? https://jxself.org/linux-libre/

ivanB1975
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I don't know but I wanted just to make an example on how we could give an hand somehow. Compiling a kernel is not a big deal. Not so much as digging in the C code. I want to try linux libre as well. Thanks for the link

ivanB1975
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I installed it on trisquel 8. So far so good :)

gd_scania
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For the latest free software you instead need Parabola alongside your current Trisquel, Parabola is based on Arch package manager (pacman).

ivanB1975
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Thanks, but I actually prefer the deb system. My first distro was a debian 2.2 potato :)
I recently had a Manjaro and I didnt like too much. You can obtain a Parabola just applying a script to manjaro.
So I assume I would not like Parabola as well :)

gd_scania
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There is one named Uruk (named after an Iraqi city), based on the Trisquel kernel but urpmi packages system.
Have you also heard Devuan, it is a deb system but kernel is nonfree and aging, you would like to append the latest Linux-libre 4.13.8 using freesh.
Migration to Parabola from Hyperbola or a nonfree Arch derivative there is a tutorial in the Parabola wiki and it seems easy to us.

sig
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I hope calher prediction "Trisquel is going to end up like gNewSense: constantly not catching up to the current LTS" is not going to be true, GNU/Trisquel is the best OS I ever used, in my humble personal opinion. I am not a developer so my only way to help the project is to spread the word about GNU/Trisquel and to donate to the project.

IrishUSA
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I love the PCLinuxOS slogan: "The distro-hopper stopper."

However it's not a fully free distro. Strangely, it's vehemently anti-systemd. I'm unaware of another distro that has a "pragmatic" focus like Linux Mint (putting freedom second place to convenience, features, and hardware compatibility), but which also rejects systemd on principled grounds. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Arc
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Slackware? But I suppose for that distro, "convenience" and "features" is different than the convenience and features of most common distros, hah.

calher

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I've just returned to Trisquel from Slackware because I need a system I can depend on when someone needs me to do something with a computer.

ao
ao
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I don't know why Mageia doesn't meet FSF endorsement criteria..?

Magic Banana

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If nothing else, because of the "nonfree" and "tainted" sections of its package repository. Mageia's developers do not seem to value freedom much. For instance, the release note of the latest version gives a link to download "Skype for Linux": https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_6_Release_Notes#Obsoleted_packages

gd_scania
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For an GNU system (or a free system) based on Mageia's urpmi packages system you need Uruk, and based on the Trisquel kernels.

SuperTramp83

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>how do I stop distrohopping?

u install Debian :P

calher

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Debian scares me. They're impure, and their packages don't focus on freedom. They only focus on being 100% open source. And people in Debian are increasingly saying "Debian Linux".

SuperTramp83

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>They're impure

My Debian is 100% libre, very pure, so pure it's Colombian..
Only thing I had to do to make it libre was install it..
Main repo only contains libre packages. it's also the only repo by default.

>And people in Debian are increasingly saying "Debian Linux"

That doesn't make the OS any less free than a bunch of dudes mistakenly calling 'apple' a banana..

calher

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I'm considering just going back to Trisquel 7.

- looks good
- does what I need
- does what others need
- easy to use

If it works, don't fix it. Why did I ever leave?!

But I also want to play with GuixSD. Maybe I should make another partition. I just hope it'll still be easy to boot my encrypted partitions if I do that.

calher

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I couldn't easily partition my disk with GNOME Disk Utiity, Parted or Ubiquity, to split my disk into two partitions and install a LUKS/LVM-encrypted Trisquel on the first half.

I do have a spare disk in a dead laptop somewhere. I'll just swap my disk to use my experimental system.

Importing backed up files now.

Screenshot from 2017-10-23 19:39:38.png
strypey
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Distro-hopping will be a fact of life for GNU-Linux users unless and until we have device-specific distros, or Desktop Environments limit themselves to a set of minimum hardware requirements that isn't constantly creeping up. That being the case, it helps to learn how to do partitioning so that you can do test installs without blowing away your production system.

Partitioning is as much an art as a science. During most GNU-Linux installs you can create your own preferred partition scheme using manual partitioning. I have a default scheme for all my boxes that looks something like:

* 15-20GB production OS partition
* xGB production swap partition (where x = 1-2 times the size of the RAM)
* extended partition (rest of drive space) with three logical partitions:
- 15-20GB test OS partition
- x GB test swap partition (I get the impression that using the same swap partition for more than one installed OS causes problems?)
- /home partition (rest of the space on the drive)

Note: my understanding is that an OS works better from a primary partition, but standard partitioning software can only create 4 primary partitions (the swap partition and the extended partitions count as 1 primary partition each), which is why I've taken to putting the 2 OS testing partitions inside the extended partition. If the OS runs adequately in a logical partition, it should run better installed on the primary OS partition.

You can alter the partition scheme at any time using Gparted from a bootable live disk (bootable GNU-Linux on a CD/ DVD/ USB), but it's less of a headache to put a futureproof partition scheme in place right from the start. You can also alter some partitions by installing GParted on an installed GNU-Linux OS, but you can't make any changes to the partition(s) you are running your OS from, or any other partitions that are mounted at the time.

Every time you install a new GNU-Linux OS, when you set the target OS partition as "/", you can mount your user files partition as "/home". Just make sure it's *not* set to be formatted, and backup anything you don't want to lose before you start the install, just in case.

Finally, if you let them do automatic partitioning, some GNU-Linux distros will create LVM partitions. In theory, these make it easier to resize partitions etc, but GParted doesn't seem to be able to work with them, and I've found them to be a headache. Before using LVM as part of a production system, I suggest setting up some LVM partitions on a spare drive and getting confident with the commands that work with them.

Magic Banana

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Sharing a swap partition is only a problem if you want to hibernate a system, boot another system, and, later, try to recover the first system from the hibernation. If you do not need to that, one single swap partition is enough.

As far as I know, primary/logical partitions make no difference performance-wise.

Something to keep in mind to be able to easily shrink a filesystem (e.g., through GParted): it must be shrinkable, unlike XFS, which is Trisquel's default filesystem for /home (for a reason: it is often cited as the most efficient filesystem to read/write large files).

LVM does not "make it easier to resize partitions" because it is above partitions and disks. It makes it easier to (re)allocate storage (without altering the partitions and the disks)... for those who learn how to do so. http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/index.html is a starting point.

strypey
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Thanks Magic Banana. I must have been reading some old Debian documentation that has been rendered obsolete by changing technology. More about these details of partition managements and some relevant history can be found here:
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/57780/do-i-only-need-one-swap-partition-for-multiple-linux-distros-and-other-questio

You are probably right about LVM, but that doesn't change the fact that LVM partitions are a real headache for those not familiar with how to use LVM. They can't be deleted or resized by GParted (at least not last time I tried), and you have to do all of this with text commands, which require a bit of getting used to. Be warned ;)

Magic Banana

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LVM partitions are a real headache for those not familiar with how to use LVM

That is why I wrote "for those who learn how to do so" (I am not among them).

They can't be deleted or resized by GParted

Again, LVM is "above" partitions. It does not deal with partitions. An LVM setup usually has one partition per disk (maybe /boot still needs to be in a separate partition though) but several "logical volumes" that can extend over several disks, be resized online, etc. Partitioning tools cannot see logical volumes.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/benefitsoflvmsmall.html explains that with a simple example.

Mangy Dog

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There's a pretty good graphical utility for configuring your Logical Volumes, this tool helps to understand (not that easy !) and visualize these LVM Volumes :

--system-config-lvm


System-config-lvm provides a graphical interface to the LVM tools (and related utilities, including fsck and resize2fs) which is good for non-emergency storage administration. It enables you to manage your logical volume and filesystem configuration with a few mouse clicks, and it prevents potentially disasterous command-line mistakes such as reducing a logical volume size before reducing the filesystem contained within that volume.(One word of warning: system-config-lvm does not recognize RAID elements as being in use, and therefore lists them as "Uninitialized Entities". If you are using a LVM-on-RAID configuration, system-config-lvm will let you wipe out RAID elements by making them into PVs. Be careful!)

System_config_lvm.png
ADFENO
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I also don't understand LVM. ;)

Among many things I don't understand: LVM, disk encryption, advanced
server installation, network configuration, UEFI/Secure Boot setup (not
to be confused with Restricted Boot, see [1]).

Things I don't understand and don't recommend doing (except for personal
purpose): thin client or PXE/network booting. This isn't recommended for
providing computing for other people because of
[2]).

[1] (under CC BY-SA 3.0).

[2]
(see last paragraph).

name at domain writes:

> LVM partitions are a real headache for those not familiar with how to use LVM
>
> That is why I wrote "for those who learn how to do so" (I am not among them).
>
> They can't be deleted or resized by GParted
>
> Again, LVM is "above" partitions. It does not deal with partitions.
> An LVM setup usually has one partition per disk (maybe /boot still
> needs to be in a separate partition though) but several "logical
> volumes" that can extend over several disks, be resized online, etc.
> Partitioning tools cannot see logical volumes.
>
> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/benefitsoflvmsmall.html explains
> that with a simple example.
>

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ADFENO
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Resending because I forgot that people using the forums don't see things
between "lesser than" and "greater than" symbols.

I also don't understand LVM. ;)

Among many things I don't understand: LVM, disk encryption, advanced
server installation, network configuration, UEFI/Secure Boot setup (not
to be confused with Restricted Boot, see [1]).

Things I don't understand and don't recommend doing (except for personal
purpose): thin client or PXE/network booting. This isn't recommended for
providing computing for other people because of [2]).

[1] https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libby/m/embracing-secure-boot-and-rejecting-restricted-boot-matthew-garrett/ (under CC BY-SA 3.0).

[2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html (see last paragraph).

Mangy Dog

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ADFENO

I also don't understand LVM. ;)
Reassure yourself neither do i ;-)

Though with some further reading & time..i did watch a few very interesting videos on it..not so long ago.


Sidenote :

I notice recently that it's becoming very common that completely different and often usefull information is given inside threads that have nothing to do with the original post.(here we start with a distro kangaroo and end up in the LVM back yard)
Can we all make an effort to open new threads or stick to the topics in general.What i mean is someone may miss informartive links & advice because who is going to look into a distrohopings thread if he is looking for LVM..? & so on.;-)

strypey
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Sorry Mangy Dog, my bad. I'll do my best best to follow your suggestion.

Mangy Dog

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No need to be sorry, i do the same..;-)
I presume that this has to do with the fact that there is actually less people demanding tecnical help because most Trisquel user's have had their T7 system up and running for a while and have solved their issues, so we tend to have more general discussions instead.