I'm leaving Trisquel
Hello guys,
I have never been a very active member of this community even though I'm very passionate about free software. The main reason for this are time restrictions. As I didn't (and still don't) have too much of time, I was very happy that somebody (i.e. Ruben) filled the gap and maintained this wonderful GNU/Linux distribution. At first sight, it seemed liked a perfect match: Combining the power and variety of available packages of Ubuntu with the spirit of the free software movement. I just loved it and enjoyed it for almost three years. For this experience I would like to express my gratitude. The team behind this distribution was just awesome!
But recently, things have changed: This distribution seems to be slowly dying and this is the main reason why I'll be leaving as soon as I get the time to do so. There is NO communication whatsoever with the community. We don't know what's going on; we are not informed about the future plans of the maintainers, there have been NO package updates for months and security-critical bugs just remain open without anyone from the development team commenting.
Don't get me wrong, guys: I know it's a lot of work to build such a distribution and keep it running for such a long period of time but unfortunately this is not worth much if you just keep ignoring your community. Maybe some people will now say that I could always check out the IRC channel and ask for information there. Maybe I would get an answer. To those people I would reply (admittedly a bit polemical): Why should the maintainers force the community to ask them for information about any single issue when they just could provide some regular blog posts? AFAIK, Ruben is being paid by the FSF to work full-time on Trisquel. It roughly takes 10 minutes to write a very short "Hey, we're still alive and working on topic X" blog post once a week.
I'll be leaving for Debian as they seem to able to provide a libre environment, even though they don't emphasize this aspect too much and even promote proprietary software if necessary.
P.S: I don't want the message of this thread to sound too harsh and thus excuse me if the criticism is too direct but IMHO it's much better to directly talk about issues instead of just keeping them sub-surface for a long time. Feel free to ignore this thread if you consider it to be a baseless rant or to enlighten me if you reckon I'm not perceiving things correctly. My hope is that this thread could maybe serve as a wake-up call to the maintainers.
Ruben works full-time for FSF. Trisquel is a sideline, so I have understood. The other points in your post, however, still stand. It's amazing that there's no posts from the leader of the distribution. Browsing the internet archive reveals that Quidam used to have presence here. Now, there's just us, the users, left to our own devices. I'm fine with that because who am I to demand anything. Free is free and my contributions are miniscule and I use LibertyBSD at the moment.
I am a translator!
I have been using Debian Stable for almost a year and a half now, but that's not because I don't trust Trisquel or the people who develop it - rather I have zero trust in Canonical and I want to distance myself as much as I can from it.
Trisquel was an excellent way for me to learn very easily how to do my basic stuff while keeping my system 100% free and for that I will always be grateful.
You are right, I'm also not in a position to demand anything. It's just very sad that the community is left in the dark about the future of this project.
Using OpenBSD/LibertyBSD I have come to think that the users are not the meat. The developers do it for themselves, so I have gathered from bits and parts. Users are a potentional developer base but only for those who commit. The important things happen in the mailing list and conventions. It's more or less like a government where the peonies get to know anything when the leaders need to do so or if they have some merit and usefulness through skills. GNU/Linux has not been a community effort for ages, the same goes with OpenBSD. "Show me what you have and then I'll think about it."
We are lucky, though, that we have a dedicated forum. It's good for newbies. In OpenBSD, they couldn't care less about proselytizing or appeal to masses.
I don't agree with this statement. If you think that users should not be the meat of a distribution, why would you go public and advertise it for everyday use? You could explicitly state that you don't want users to use it on their home machines or that you won't provide any support or maintaining efforts if you don't care about them.
I don't necessarily think so myself. I'm just saying what they, the developers, apparently think. What I said is only a statement of the being of things.
Maybe I should've said "I've come to accept that the users are not the meat."
It's been some months that I have left Trisquel and installed Debian Stable.
I have tried to start a discussion about the problem but no success. This project depends on *one person* and Trisquel GNU/Linux is currently by no means an active project and has been idle for a few months.
It seems that some old forum users are happy that they have no participation in coding. This phrase is strongly echoed here: 'just shut up and wait, if you cannot, leave us alone and build your own distribution'.
It's important to note that the project is active, see:
https://devel.trisquel.info/groups/trisquel
If you want to find the above link: click on the "Code" link in the menu
to the right side and click on "Activities".
Additionally, you can install Guix on your copy of Trisquel instead of
using non-free system distribution like Debian or some others not proven
to follow the GNU FSDG.
Respectfully, Adonay.
--
Brasileiro, ativista do software livre (oficialmente desde 2015).
Eu não me responsabilizo caso não consigamos abrir os arquivos que
enviamos uns aos outros. O principal responsável é quase sempre o
criador do programa que você usa.
* Portfólio:
* Formas de contato (cartão de visita virtual, vCard):
* Facebook: Não possuo. Pois obriga a sociedade a usar programas de
computador não livres.
** Ao invés disso, escolha um dos vários servidores para usar a
Diaspora:
** Não se esqueça de me adicionar aos seus contatos:
* WhatsApp: Não possuo. Pois obriga a sociedade a usar programas de
computador não livres.
** Use o Ring:
** Minha identidade no Ring:
* Outras formas de entrar em contato comigo estão em meu cartão de
visita. Baixe ele novamente com frequência!
* Explore e compartilhe tudo o que estou compartilhando:
Also, it has more than one contributor. Don't spread misinformation!
Look at the "Code" link I referenced earlier, and go to "Members" and
also see the documentation pages, there are lot of people contributing
there.
The last commit made there was 17 days ago. Additionally: How does it help the community to know that the project is active if this information has to be retrieved from some repository instead of "official" channels like blogs, forum posts, etc...? You can't expect community members (especially newbies) to browse repository commits every day just to get some updates.
I also know that the project has more than one contributor but as far as I can judge, it seems to be Ruben who is making all decisions about new releases, updates, etc...
Well, I don't have concrete proof for what I'm about to say, but I guess
most people who participated on the topics on desktop environments
contributed a little on the choice of default desktop environments for
the upcoming release.
I moved to Debian and then Ubuntu for personal reasons (first to get a newer GNOME and then to get back to an Ubuntu base so I can use SimpleScreenRecorder and OBS successfully), but I don't see any reason to doubt that Trisquel is still a good and actively developed system. Of course Ruben is busy working for the FSF, but the FSF uses Trisquel, so it's not like Ruben is going to abandon it. Besides, has everyone forgotten how long it took for both Trisquel 6 and Trisquel 7 to be released? Trisquel 6 was released so late that Trisquel 5.5 was losing its support almost immediately after, IIRC. In the case of Trisquel 7, it was much later than now two years ago.
Also, to repeat, Ruben is not being paid by the FSF to work on Trisquel. Trisquel is a side project for him.
Trisquel is still the system I would recommend to most people. It's fine to prefer some other system; I don't like the bugs in the software versions found in Trisquel 7, so I don't use it, and I probably won't switch to trisquel 8 simply because I am knowledgeable enough to carefully use Ubuntu and I don't like switching systems too often (it disrupts my workflow). But Trisquel is still the best as far as distros to give to family members and recommend to the general public go.
You mean you can use Ubuntu if full freedom? Without too much hassle?
Yeah. Ubuntu's repositories are segregated the same way Debian's are; proprietary programs are put in the "restricted" and "multiverse" repositories. So I just disabled those repositories after installing. The kernel isn't deblobbed, but none of my hardware uses proprietary firmware, so that doesn't affect me in practice (i.e. that proprietary firmware never gets executed).
Cool, thanks for the info.
"Besides, has everyone forgotten how long it took for both Trisquel 6 and Trisquel 7 to be released?" That's a different point. My point mentioned above is that very important security updates are simply not available. This is completely different from delaying the release of a new LTS system.
How late are security updates? Trisquel has a history with that, as well, so nothing new unless it's been over a month or something. Having prompt delivery of security updates is not especially necessary with general users, anyway; that's mainly important for servers. So perhaps Trisquel shouldn't be recommended to people who run servers (probably RHEL or Debian is better suited for them, or Parabola if you want to suggest a completely libre distro), but that's not really Trisquel's target audience anyway.
I disagree. In my opinion security updates should always be provided ASAP, while other features are not as crucial. But maybe that's just me and other people don't need security updates right away.
I guess it makes sense that general users do not need GIMP or any other random software to be updated at once.
But when it comes to the default browser, it's much more problematic since it's been months, and this is why I can't recommend Trisquel anymore, specially to general users.
After all, Firefox/Abrowser etc. is one of the most widely used browser around the world, so it's definitely a target.
On Debian, I'd need to deactivate the DRM thing from Firefox/iceweasel, and maybe that H264 thing if I figure out how.
I'd reuse the addons repo from Trisquel though, even if it's only to quickly figure out if an addon is free or not.
The Firefox DRM is Windows/Mac only so you don't have to worry about it yet. Debian already disables the OpenH264 download, so they'll probably disable the DRM too.
Thanks for the info.
I can play .mp4 files in the Tor browser in Ubuntu 16.04 (which doesn't use the Cisco OpenH264 codec) by installing the ffmpeg or libav package.
I think it was the same one that Totem had me install when playing an .mp4 file for the first time that used the H.264 video codec.
I am a member!
I think you guys should stop whining. Ruben has a big job on his hands.
No one denied it takes a lot of time and hard work.
Communicating even through a blog post takes very little time and effort.
Also, this is not whining, this is a problem:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/havent-had-any-software-updates-while?page=1#comment-99606
No security fixes for months (still going) regarding the main door to attacks is a problem.
what do you mean no security updates? It just gets them a day late, its good till 2019. I used to just wait a day to use trisquel if it was serious then update the next day.
Go to https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/ and then compare your version of the file. or apt log if it applies to trisquel. I don't have trisquel installed anymore either cause I'm doing steam gaming now. But I doubt that would have changed, unless it broke.
The browsers might be a diff story. If they aren't getting updated you might have to just change to something more mainstream.
That's exactly the sentiment SalmanMohammadi was talking about. If all discussion about issues related to the maintainers is silenced by a "stop whining" statement, I don't see any base for enabling constructive criticism.
Where exactly did I "bitch"? I tried to make a point as politely as possible. If I didn't succeed, I'm sorry as I didn't want to insult anyone. However, I fail to see where exactly I did that.
Let's try to keep this on a professional level, please.
I don't think I understand what's going on in this post. I am running Trisquel 7 and get updates quite often. For certain programs like say, XFCE, I update myself outside of the repositories to make sure I have the latest, but only because of new features I wanted.
Is this response you all have just about having the bleeding edge? Because, I seem to be able to do everything I need to using Trisquel 7. And I don't understand the sentiment of leaving and OS. Or does the original poster mean he is leaving the community as a whole? One can use Debian and still be part of the Trisquel Community.
Peace to you all,
grimlok
Check the default browser's (Abrowser) latest security update. That means a meaningful vulnerability for unsuspecting users for a very long time.
the sentiment is reinforced by zero communication from the maintainers.
For the rest of what you've written, I agree.
I think it's at least ethical to warn users that they should use it (default browser) at their own risks. Sure, the warning is there by default, but that's the kind of mandatory stuff on all contracts.
Seriously, all it takes is a visible warning on the main page and/or the main forum page about using Midori (bad https support) or another browser until Abrowser/Icecat are fixed.
How hard, how time consuming is that? That's all it takes.
Instead, dead silence, and thus users left vulnerable. Not cool.
It seems like you are getting updates quite often because you enabled some additional repositories. That is, however, unfortunately not true for the rest of us using the default repositories only.
My criticism was not about the lack of bleeding edge software. It was all about the lack of very security-critical updates.
I also don't want to leave the free software community and maybe I even won't leave these forums, even if some people would like to see me leave. ;-) I just wanted to express my intention to use another GNU/Linux distribution instead of Trisquel. Hopefully, I don't have to if the maintainers resume regular security updates, though.
I use worse than Debian, and I am still active here because I believe in the goal we share! Of course, hopefully if the EOMA is funded, I can return to being free again.
I am a member!
Generally speaking I must say, very sadly, that I agree with Mzee.
I have stopped receiving any updates whatsoever over the past couple of weeks.
Lack of updates to the browser without clear and loud warnings for months is also unacceptable.
I have been a member for more than three years.
Whether it is a responsibility of the developers to post software and project updates regularly or just good form, it discourages me from recommending Trisquel to others.
Incidentally, how does one cancel the membership if needed?
There is a clear way to become a member here:
https://trisquel.info/en/member
But I cannot find a way to suspend the payments.
Finally, I understand 10 Euros per month does not run this project, but it is a significant enough donation that members should expect a (Monthly? Quarterly? Yearly?) newsletter of some sort. It would definitely contribute to a feeling of community.
The conclusion, of course, is that it is what it is, and it is infinitely better than nothing. I am very thankful to everyone who has contributed and continues to contribute to this project.
At some point I also tried to become a translator but never figured out how to become one either.
Saludos libres,
Fbit
I am a translator!
> At some point I also tried to become a translator but never figured out how to become one either.
Go on IRC #trisquel and tell quidam you want to be one.
I am a translator!
You don't need an authorization from somebody to translate the Wiki. You translate it. And if you want, you can ask people on forum to read it again.
For the french documentation we use Framavox(loomio) to speak about some manual and other thing like how rewrite the manual in order to avoid disorder on it and ...
You can become a translator by going to the Documentation and clicking on Translate on any of the docs.
I'll attach some screenshots so you can see...
And if you mean translator for software, since Libre Software is not one but many. You can use these sites for translating programmes (localisation)
https://launchpad.net/
http://pootle.translatehouse.org/index.html
http://zanata.org/
I've helped translate projects like Tor, Midori, MATE over the years... I hope this is useful for you! :D
if thats the case you might have to switch to chromium or firefox. rest of the system should get security patches till 2019 I would think.
(Don't have time for anything more than eavesdropping for now, but wanted to explicitly thank those -- the majority, which is really nice to see -- who are doing the hard, thoughtful work of keeping this conversation kind and constructive in spite of the difficult and contentious subject. I was surprised when I saw the title that it hadn't been tossed in the troll hole, but, fifteen minutes later after having actually read the thoughtful discussion, I can see why it stays here. This is a good and important discussion. Thanks, all.)
I don't have much time to reply to the thread in detail, but I think some of the concerns mentioned here are valid and deserve a response.
I've gone through some life changes recently, moving to the USA, getting married, working for the FSF... I'm busier than I've ever been. I've explained this in some other messages, and I've been trying to reserve some of my time for the project, not as successfully as I (or the community) would have liked. Recently I decided to dedicate my whole work day on Fridays to Trisquel (unpaid, notice that the FSF does not pay me to work on Trisquel or my contributions to GNU), throughout the summer. I started to do so a couple weeks ago but I had to skip one due to a family emergency. Today I could dedicate most of my day to Trisquel and fixed some problems with the repo management that were preventing updates to be pushed. I also started to work on fixing the bugs in the Firefox > Abrowser package helper that are preventing new versions of the browser to be published.
After hearing the concerns of the community through threads like this and directly through the IRC channel I will also make an effort to improve my communications, by posting a progress update every week. I also take this opportunity to remind people that I don't follow the forums directly (I intervene when I'm pointed to a specific post) but I do check for direct messages through the #trisquel and #trisquel-dev channels on irc.freenode.net (as user quidam).
A brief update on recent progress:
- Trisquel 8 ("Flidas") repos have been populated, and I added the minimum necessary custom packages to be able to debootstrap the system. This is the first milestone for the T8 release.
- The scripts to generate the T8 kernel line are almost ready.
- Today I fixed issues in the repo management system caused by Ubuntu decommissioning the repos for the 10.04 release. Note that we will keep the Trisquel 4.0 repos in place for a bit longer since some legacy machines at the FSF depend on them. Updates should be coming in normally now.
Pending important tasks that I will be working on in the following Fridays:
- Debugging the helpers that are failing to build, starting with the Firefox one and following with others by security priority.
- Cleaning the merge request queue!
- Setting up the build jails for Trisquel 8
- Building the kernel and netinst image first
- Then move to the desktop related packages
- Release testing live images
Additionally, an important tasks that needs to be done is to set up an alert system that checks for all automated services to work as expected. Due to the big amount of automation involved in the maintenance of our packages (through the helper system and continuous integration with Jenkins), we depend on things running smoothly, or alert immediately so issues like the one I fixed today don't have a chance to linger too much.
Thanks everybody for your patience, support and contributions!
So the problem is actually rather the way the fsf sets its priorities.
In my opinion they *should* use their money for something important as one of the very few truly free distributions out there.
Nobody can blame Ruben - I'm rather surprised that he is able to maintain the project at all if he has to do it in his spare time.
There is clearly something wrong here.
Can the FSF afford to? They also have limited resources and much that needs doing on their own. Have you looked at their financial statements? They're very lean. It's amazing that they accomplish as much as they do. It's a testament to the quality and dedication of the people they hire.
What is more important for free software than having a 100% free system?
If the fsf spends money on anything, shouldn't the trisquel project be on the very top of the list, or at least far up there`?
Teaching about free software and campaigning for various issues is also important. And how do the other FSF-endorsed distros feel over that if the FSF were to say "we'll hire someone to work on Trisquel but sorry Parabola and Guix you lose! Suckers!!! LOL..." I think they'd feel like a second-class distro: Trisquel is worthy of this but not them. I recall one of RMS's main points with their endorsed distros was to treat them all equally, even listing them in alphabetical order to avoid any indication of preference. But anyway, you didn't really address the money part. So: Make a large donation to the FSF. Enough for them to hire someone to work only on Trisquel full time for years and years. You'll have to sort out how to do that while still treating them equally with RMS (if that's even possible to do!!!). Go write him at name at domain and hash out the details.
Teaching about freedom is not much use if there is no free OS that people can actually install.
It is sensible to support the distro with the biggest userbase, which trisquel is.
Some people of other distros might be offended by that or feel kinda down, but that is a minor issue compared to the fact that one of the few usable free distros is going down the hill because of an overstrained lead developer.
The fsf receives every year a substantial amount of money as an income.
I wish they would use it on something like trisquel instead of those campaigns which often have a quite limited impact.
"The fsf receives every year a substantial amount of money as an income."
Ha! I don't know which FSF you're looking at. $450,000 (okay, they ended at $461,000 at their last fundraiser)? For a staff of 12 people? That works out to about $38,416 per person. That's not a lot in the U.S. And it's even less if you add more people like you want to do. And that doesn't include office expenses like rent and whatever other costs there may be to keep the office going. Or running the LibrePlanet conference. I understand that MIT donates the space but it can't all be free. And other operational expenses throughout the year.
If you really think the FSF has the ability to add more staff or that they should change directions and work on different things than they do currently you should write to them and say just that - http://www.fsf.org/about/contact/ - because arguing about this on a website does nothing.
"Teaching about freedom is not much use if there is no free OS that people can actually install."
I would like to underscore this point. It is basic.
I'm a layman; a novice GNU/linux user who supports the premise of libre OS.
How can I reach out to friends to tell them about Trisquel, and encourage them to try it when the system isn't "user friendly" enough to use?
I'm able to persevere with Trisquel because 1. I have the time to troubleshoot the basics and 2. because of the great support and patience of members of the forum. If I didn't have either I could not consider Trisquel, and for now I have to direct novices towards Ubuntu as alternative to Mac or Windows because it "just works".
-Zem
P.S. and yes: Thank you for this great OS and your tireless work.
So basically the FSF would rather spend its resources in being political than give a helping hand to a distribution that follows their ideals.
Shouldn't the deployment and continued growth of free software that you can run freely on your server carry some weight?
Especially in modern times with "cloud" servers that only deploy operating systems like Ubuntu with their restricted and multiverse repos enabled by default.
I'd love to see Trisquel in a Docker image (Docker is free software) or as an option on something like Digital Ocean or Rackspace.
You forgot that the FSF also has to spend a ton of money on union dues. (Rough estimate per worker: https://i.imgur.com/WXj2Hzz.jpg )
