imp: the tiny home computer - free software friendly?

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xilixi
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Joined: 11/28/2013

I've just came across this:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/imp-the-tiny-home-computer

It claims to promote free software, although I have some doubts!

Opinions are welcomed!

Michał Masłowski

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I am a translator!

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Joined: 05/15/2010

Do computers with nonfree and signed Samsung Exynos bootloader and preinstalled nonfree software promote what we aim for?

Chris

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Joined: 04/23/2011

The device is not free software friendly. "Open source" tends to be used by people who don't understand free software or at least have a different perspective on it. The people who use this term think free software is more or less a convenient thing than something essential.

There are at least a few problems with this system and components which are dependent on non-free pieces. I'm not convinced they're trying to sell this as a "free software" system though as this community would use those words.

Personally I find this project significantly less frustrating though than some others. They're not lying as far as I can see from a brief skim. Something that a number of fundraisers here seem to be doing lately (anonbox, etc). They are not claiming to be doing something or “wanting” to do something that is clearly not doable.

From the crowd funding page it very clearly states it's not free software friendly:

"Please note that Odroid’s user-land GPU drivers are library binary format, which are non-open."

They are also using Ubuntu. Some of the hardware features integrated are also not free software friendly. The wireless HDMI for instance I'm told is definitely not free software friendly. Even if it were there are other issues...

We're trying to find something we can work with on the laptop front, desktop front, and min-board front for similar types of devices. The reality is 100% free software hardware is extremely difficult and without the cooperation of billion dollar entities near-impossible. There are so few combinations of SoC and chipsets that would work to produce a 100% free system.

Jabjabs
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Joined: 07/05/2014

Said it better than I could. They appear to want to aspire to Free software but are going the usual Open source route and are caving for convenience sake.

It is by no means the worst system around but there are so many area that need improvement. As you would know, this is an area that is staggeringly hard to make ground in.

muhammed
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Joined: 04/13/2013

Chris, what does SoC mean?

Jabjabs
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Joined: 07/05/2014

I can answer that. SoC (System on a Chip), essentially it is a chip that contains the vast majority of processors to run an entire system, thus CPU, GPU, audio, networking, memory controllers etc. Essentially these things are great for these smaller machines like Tablets and phones as the mast majority of the systems as they are typically lower powered and easy to integrate in a design.

The down fall is that because there are so many components internally that the odds of getting a system that can be powered entirely by Free software is very slim. Most of the designs are not very well understood as there is very little transparency from the lead designers/manufacturers. The CPU's are 'usually' okay but everything else is usually a grey area.

It is reasons like this that I hopefull for the Risc-V project and others such systems as they are at least the beginning of a true free hardware system even if graphics and everything else are a long way off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC-V

Chris

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Joined: 04/23/2011

Well said.

Legimet
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Joined: 12/10/2013

Also see lowRISC: http://www.lowrisc.org/. They plan to mass-produce a SoC using RISC-V, and I hope they succeed.

muhammed
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Joined: 04/13/2013

Thanks guys. I added your posts to a new documentation page -- I hope you don't mind:

https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/categories-computers

lembas
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Joined: 05/13/2010

A related concept is SBC, single board computer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-board_computer

The Free Software Foundation has listed some of those and how free they are here https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers

muhammed
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Joined: 04/13/2013

Is this different from system-on-a-chip? If it is different, what is the difference? Should we open a new page for SBCs, or include SBCs in the SoC page?

https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/categories-computers

Michał Masłowski

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I am a translator!

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Joined: 05/15/2010

A SoC is a component used in e.g. single-board computers. Practically
this means that no Samsung Exynos SoC is acceptable for fully free
software systems (therefore no boards using it are acceptable), while
there are acceptable (at reduced functionality) SoCs used in boards
having bigger problems.

There are many existing and separate resources on free software
compatibility of such systems.

muhammed
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Joined: 04/13/2013

Thanks Michal

Are SoCs used in other things (other than SBCs)?

Michał Masłowski

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I am a translator!

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Joined: 05/15/2010

Phones, tablets, laptops, set-top boxes, routers, etc.

muhammed
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Joined: 04/13/2013

Thanks again

Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross
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Joined: 09/17/2012

forgive me, I've writen the first half as a rant.

dam it why is it yet more disposable junk that keeps being mention here.
that thing has non-free gpu = junk device = landfill. as the gpu drivers
are forbidden knowage it's stuck to old ubuntu. forever most likely
unless massive reverse engineering effort. all there things are short
term thinking. Aren't you sick of one off devices that *might* be free
software friendly? Wouldn't you like a long-term approach? well there a
project that was been working very hard at a long-term solution that has
far for impact. buy one imp and they give a imp to someone, that is such
a small impact. better can be done.

EOMA-68 is breaking the unsustainable status quo. how would you like
buying into eoma-68 means instead of buy one give one it's buy one make
everything cheaper for all, which makes it more accessible to the poor.
for example funds for giving computers to the poor, give more for the
same amount of money. that the prices of all types of devices are
reduced in mass and 2rd hand ones are not obsolete so quickly and are of
equal use to who there given to.

where instead of the huge strugle for a one off, single product free
software laptop that doesn't get mass volume and so is not assable to
the masses.

you have a separation of device from computing brains. to make device
faster you swap a card with the push of a button.

this means you don't need to make a free desktop then a free tablet then
a free laptop, then a free this then a free that nooo. you have desktop
shell, laptop shell, tablet shell, games console shell, tv shell,
,etc and to make it free it's one two three:
1. eject brain card
2. insert 100% free software brain card
3. oh wait your done and you can do that to any device type.

now the struggle is making a 100% free software brain card. In the mean
time we can use existing brain cards like the allwinner a20 that oh btw
run %100 free software (including reverse engineered 3d) and SOC's (the
brain chip) that are fsf diagnosable come along get endorsed and then
you (pre-)order and it comes in the post and you can swap it in 5 secs
and have your now running a fsf endorsed brain card. it gets
better now the up hill struggle is just making the generic brain card
and not a set of products. brain cards with new future SOCs that are a
new arch can be made and software for the new arch ported then on your
next upgrade cycle in your family you buy a box of these new design
brain cards of the future and can swap them into the device you already
have!

....and because all these device shells share the common brain cards,
the brain cards get produced on a even huger scale giving the producer
even more buying power to to buy even more of the SOCs more cheaply and
SOCs we would not other wise be able to get due to too small quantises.

with each brian card sold and each device sold the profits are
reinvested into the next brain card, device so in the end I imagine it
wouldn’t need crowd funding long term as it will be self sustaining.

anyone is able to make a device or brain card as the specification is
open. however to be sold under the name then need to be endorsed by the
project, part of which is making sure that the brain card or device is
standard compliment so you don't get sold a doggey product.

so your not limited, nor dependant on one company.

you know althose laptops,phones,tablets,etc that get go to wast cus they
have last years brain would be a thing of the past.

anyway they are doing a crowd fund for the micro-desktop device, think
of it as very basic mini desktop. vga out and buy a separate usb audio
interface for audio or use the micro hdmi on the brain card it self. the
micro desktop is being sold with the first brain card the allwinner a20
a duel core cpu with 1 or 2gb ram and I believe the option of a wooden
box. software is tested and working. I belive it can play Full HD
movies, it's deferential possible on the a20 but I can't remember if
it's been done yet on this brain card. if not now I expect it will. show
your interest and support and add your self to the crowdfund list. I am.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

oh btw there more brain cards in the pipe line. Included ones that can
be endorsed by the FSF! (saying that, the a20 runs fully with only free
software including 3d acceleration.) find the news on:
http://rhombus-tech.net/

Got a dream for a device? Add it: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/
I've added a few my self :D

right, time for me to go to bed!

got questions? best place is the arm-netbook mailing list:
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/