Its time to start questioning Trisquel's longevity

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t3g
t3g
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Joined: 05/15/2011

As we all know, Trisquel is a side project for Ruben as he spends the majority of his time at his full time job. With Trisquel moving to an LTS model, it introduced stability to the project but at the same time, allows Ruben to sit on things for a while while he concentrates on his career.

For a long time, people have been asking for many things. Some want an updated ISO (7.01 or 7.1) so they can install it on their system with more up to date packages and the backported kernel and xorg packages enabled by default. As it stands right now, the current ISO is horribly updated and needs a refresh soon. Of course, we are all taking to a wall as Ruben has had no plans to release updates.

The desktop environment needs an overhaul. The current fallback isn't working for many people as many users here have opted for straight up Gnome Shell, XFCE, Unity, and MATE. Trisquel peaked visually in the 4.0 and 5.0 days with the Gnome 2 look and the current solution just isn't working. With Trisquel 8, serious consideration needs to happen as the default. Some have moved towards the MATE route as the packages will be officially supported from the start. Either way, it seems like the common practice when installing Trisquel is to switch DEs from the start. That's something that Ruben should consider for the future use of the desktop.

I know we can do netinstall, but it would be nice to have easier ways (meta package or dedicated ISO) to do a server install like how Ubuntu does it. Its great that Trisquel is trying to fit a very very small niche on the desktop, but making it easier for libre operating systems as a dedicated server or cloud deployment option should be a focus. I would love that there were official Docker images for Trisquel or a service like Digital Ocean or Rackspace could easily spin Trisquel for their users.

So will Ruben change the path of Trisquel down the road? Who knows as he is a fricken ghost and that's not good for the project.

bchurchwell
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Joined: 08/19/2010

Trisquel 7 works fine. It is my main OS. I use it every day. But, I've taken steps to make sure that I have hardware that works well and stuck with it.

Using netinstall and ending up with a server is straightforward.

Occasionally I try a 'newer' distro to see what's new but I always come back to Trisquel for the freedom and preference for the Ubuntu/Trisquel way that things are laid out and work.

All of your points are valid, but using fully libre software is a choice that involves many compromises. Even RMS acknowledges this.

Legimet
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Joined: 12/10/2013

I agree with all of your points. And I really hope a new ISO is released soon.

pizzaiolo
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Joined: 03/12/2015

I wish Trisquel was less reliant on one single person.

quantumgravity
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Joined: 04/22/2013

I think there is some new platform out there which makes it easier to contribute - maybe somebody has more details.
However, it's not about major decisions, afaik.

Trisquel is a good system, but my personal experience is, that it is not as reliable as a debian stable;
my guess is that this is because it's based on ubuntu - a controversal decision, as we all know.
In my view, it's easy to make debian userfriendly nowadays.
You add synaptic or install gnome shell, which comes, i think, with a default kind of app store.
Ruben has decided against it, and he may have his reasons.
A lot of times, he is criticized for not being visible on the forums. Well, I kind of agree, but on the other hand, i can understand that he rather wants to focus on the work.
But wouldn't it be also a big relief for him if he wasn't the only king in the "trisquel gouvernment"?
Other people could share the effort and one of them sure would be reachable via forums etc.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

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Joined: 10/31/2014

>In my view, it's easy to make debian userfriendly nowadays.

Debian Jessie stable has been my main and only distro since it was released at the end of April. There is no need to make it user-friendly for it is user-friendly by default..

>You add synaptic

Installed by default on Jessie.

>it's based on ubuntu - a controversal decision

terrible decision indeed (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it) :)

>A lot of times, he is criticized for not being visible on the forums. Well, I kind of agree, but on the other hand, i can understand that he rather wants to focus on the work.
But wouldn't it be also a big relief for him if he wasn't the only king in the "trisquel gouvernment"?
Other people could share the effort and one of them sure would be reachable via forums etc.

Finding 5 minutes to say hello every couple of months is something even the busiest person in the World can do. Yes.
But you are wrong on one thing. There are several people working on Trisquel. AFAIK Aklis has contributed to Triskello as, if not even more than Ruben lately. And Aklis is great on IRC, he will always pong you quickly even if you bother him with silly requests (as I did a few weeks ago, meh). He is certainly reachable :)

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

Deja vu...

JadedCtrl
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Joined: 08/11/2014

GNOME fallback pretty much works for everyone. People are switching desktops because GNOME fallback isn't their favourite. (It isn't particularly mine, either.) GNOME fallback is doing what it needs to do, though-- it looks great, is user-friendly, and works on pretty much any computer, even a potato.
If you don't think Ruben is doing a good enough job, then contribute.
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/how-trisquel-made could help you make an updated ISO.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

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Joined: 10/31/2014

Jaded: you are lying! I just inserted the live Trisquel USB in a potato, but it failed to boot. -> http://www.currentevents.today/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/shame-on-you4.jpg

JadedCtrl
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Joined: 08/11/2014

It worked for me on my potato! ;-:

tomlukeywood
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Joined: 12/05/2014
Ra
Ra
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Joined: 07/23/2014

Nice, but i don't believe that will work in the long run. GNU/Linux systems can only have one root. Potatoes often develop several roots by themselves...

Ra
Ra
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Joined: 07/23/2014

How does a potatoe connect to the internet?
Via a rooter.

moxalt
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Joined: 06/19/2015

Badum tss.

alimiracle
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Joined: 01/18/2014

> Nice, but i don't believe that will work in the long run. GNU/Linux systems can only have one root. Potatoes often develop several roots by themselves...
no
in fact Any user that has UID 0 and GID 0 its another root
We can make a lot
lol

moxalt
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Joined: 06/19/2015

I believe he was referring to root in the filesystem (/, of which there can
only be one), not a user with root powers.

alimiracle
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Joined: 01/18/2014

> I believe he was referring to root in the filesystem (/, of which there can
> only be one), not a user with root powers.

Any directory can make it root useing croot
lol

moxalt
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Joined: 06/19/2015

By croot I assume you mean chroot. There can still only be one root at a time
in the given environment.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

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Joined: 10/31/2014

I beg your pardon Jaded. What happened is I tried to boot it on a potato that is not free software friendly.. I just tried with another one that doesn't require proprietary firmware for the GPU and it worked flawlessly. My bad :)

MeNoMore
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Joined: 10/05/2015

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO PEEL THE POTATO! XD
It needs a wash for it to work.
D:
Wha Whaa Whaaaa.

suitsmeveryfine
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Joined: 08/15/2014

There are two things that annoy me we Trisquel: (1) the installer crashes if you select the wrong kernel and (2) it doesn't have enough developers that maintain it.

I'm only guessing now but maybe (2) is because such a great part of the developer work consists of cleaning up non-free Ubuntu packages and documentation, which must be very boring. Basing Trisquel on Debian next time might be better in this regard.

Despite this, however, this libre distro does work well and I recommend/help other people to install it on libreboot machines. I have no problem with the DE; on the contrary, I think Gnome 3 Fallback is a great choice.

lembas
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Joined: 05/13/2010

Have you filed a bug on that crash?

jxself
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Joined: 09/13/2010

Watch out t3g spreading old information again and making it seem like Trisquel is dependent upon Rubén. Stop it, t3g. We went over this about a month ago. I shall copy & paste the same information:

Watch out for old information! :)

Anyone can sign up for an account at https://devel.trisquel.info/ and work on Trisquel. The Helper programs to generate ISOs can also be found there. Here is one person selected at random who has been doing things: https://devel.trisquel.info/u/salmoh

Here's another person that worked on Trisquel: https://devel.trisquel.info/trisquel/package-helpers/merge_requests/129
Jenkins is an automated build system for the Trisquel build farm. Notice that, as a result of their work, Jenkins automatically took the stuff and compiled it using the Trisquel build farm.

Ruben is working full time at the Free Software Foundation these days but things have opened up a great deal and he is not a blocking factor anymore.

If people want to see a 7.1 ISO, get busy doing a git clone and work on one. Submit a merge request. Discuss and fix any issues or problems that are brought up with the merge request. So it's entirely on the community and not fair to blame one single person I think. Which people are willing to step up? :)

quantumgravity
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Joined: 04/22/2013

I'm happy to read this!
Sure the project will benefit a lot.

What about the major decisions like release cycle, which packages are installed by default etc.?
Is it also possible now for people have some impact?

t3g
t3g
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Joined: 05/15/2011

You are also repeating the same ole same ole as well. Your solution is to "just do it yourself" but Trisquel falls into the standard FLOSS project meritocracy where the real decisions are filtered through one person and it is up to them and them alone.

I'll be honest in that I don't have any experience in building an ISO of a distribution. What is stopping you, Jason, from putting out this ISO with your technical knowledge, knowing that people want it and Ruben is dragging his feet?

onpon4
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Joined: 05/30/2012

> Your solution is to "just do it yourself" but Trisquel falls into the standard FLOSS project meritocracy where the real decisions are filtered through one person and it is up to them and them alone.

Er, what other possible way could you expect it to be done? I guess there could be other people who can accept commits. Are there? But short of that, I don't get what you're expecting the Trisquel developers to do to allow external contributions.

Legimet
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Joined: 12/10/2013

"I guess there could be other people who can accept commits"

Recently, I believe aklis has been given the permission to do this. That should speed up development a bit.

jxself
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Joined: 09/13/2010

"What is stopping you, Jason, from putting out this ISO with your technical knowledge, knowing that people want it and Ruben is dragging his feet?"

I don't have the time. I'm busy, head down, in my own work. Plus, I'm not the one going around banging on a drum and going on about doing stuff in Trisquel. :)

t3g
t3g
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Joined: 05/15/2011

I bang that drum because I care and want to see the project not only be stable, but have some awesome features as well. One of the reasons I brought up MATE is due to a huge percentage who are dissatisfied with the current desktop and switch away from the default as soon as possible. I understand that having the freedom to pick a desktop is a welcome perk, but it also shows that the out of the box experience needs work.

MeNoMore
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Joined: 10/05/2015

Not All of us can code!
Well Yet..

Allanitomwesh
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Joined: 10/24/2015

I'd like to do it, but I don't know how. I think this is true for a majority of Trisquel's userbase.
Is there somewhere one can learn?

grimlok
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Joined: 04/16/2013

Instead of changing Trisquel itself why not work on something like XTrisquel, or something. Kinda like XUbuntu, make a seperate project based on the main that has a different Desktop Environment as its default. We already have Trisquel Mini.

grimlok

a_slacker_here
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Joined: 06/29/2013

I'm happy to hear that Mr Rodríguez is working at the FSF :)

I'm pretty proud to be a Trisquel user myself and it is the first free as in freedom project that I made contributions to but I have to agree on some aspects:

1- We have a relatively long cue of contributions that are there waiting for someone to accept or deny them since 2 or 3 months ago.

2- Communication with the leader is rare and coveted, which means that you can work on something a little bit risky only for being denied later by the nature of the contribution. This possibility exists but I've never experienced it myself.

On the other hand I want to add that:

1- Normally, the contributions not accepted in the first placed use to be discussed and negotiated for improvements for making another "merge request".

2- Other members on the development's mailing list use to give help rapidly.

Cheers :)

Legimet
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Joined: 12/10/2013

"Communication with the leader is rare and coveted"

It's very hard to get ahold of quidam, even on IRC. However, aklis is usually available, and he is able to accept merge requests.

a_slacker_here
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Joined: 06/29/2013

If aklis is now able to accept and decline merge requests... why is the queue that long? I know he is very active and communicative and I find it strange.

Either way, things are changing and we are in the middle of a transition... and I think that it is for better so I'm confident.

EDIT: When I wrote "cue" I meant "queue".

Magic Banana

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Joined: 07/24/2010

As we all know, Trisquel is a side project for Ruben as he spends the majority of his time at his full time job. With Trisquel moving to an LTS model, it introduced stability to the project but at the same time, allows Ruben to sit on things for a while while he concentrates on his career.

How much have you contributed to the Trisquel to feel entitled to criticize quidam for his supposed lack of involvement?

Why aren't you a member? https://trisquel.info/member

Why haven't you ever donated a cent? https://trisquel.info/donate

You want quidam to work full time on Trisquel but expects him to live from thin air?

For a long time, people have been asking for many things. Some want an updated ISO (7.01 or 7.1) so they can install it on their system with more up to date packages and the backported kernel and xorg packages enabled by default.

*You* have been repeatedly asking. This is the fourth thread you open on that topic in a few months:

An updated ISO allows to save some download during/after the first original install. I personally do not see it as a priority. I can wait one hour to get an updated system after a new install of Trisquel (that most users do once: they then dist-upgrade). And it is not like you cannot use the system during that time. In particular, it is an hour one can spend customizing the applications of her newly installed system.

The desktop environment needs an overhaul. The current fallback isn't working for many people as many users here have opted for straight up Gnome Shell, XFCE, Unity, and MATE.

That recent thread clearly shows that no desktop environment will satisfy every user and that many users are very happy with the current choice: https://trisquel.info/forum/what-de-do-you-prefer-trisquel-8

Trisquel peaked visually in the 4.0 and 5.0 days with the Gnome 2 look and the current solution just isn't working.

It does. At least for many users.

So will you start donating time or money to the project and/or stop complaining that Trisquel's developers are not focused enough?