Jami or Wire?
Can someone with experience from using Jami and Wire give a short comparison of the two?
If one is to ask people who are not necessarily free software enthusiasts to use a free software communications alternative, which of the two would be better? Or is there another alternative which is even better?
The social inertia imposed by non-free communication software (e.g. Facebook, WeChat, etc.) is so overwhelming that free/libre alternatives don't stand a chance. So I'm afraid the non-enthusiasts wouldn't even bother to consider either of them. Even the true enthusiasts often submit to social inertia.
However, if you want to know which is better, I'd like to recommend Jami, which is part of GNU project and officially endorsed by FSF. It's available on GNU/Linux and Android (via F-Droid).
Thanks nadebula.1984.
I agree that many or even most non-enthusiasts probably wont convert but let's not apply the same yardstick to everybody. And I am having those few not-everybody in mind that might follow along if the software is not too bad (in their opinion).
I would also prefer Jami from the point of view that it is gnu software, but it doesn't help if it doesn't work well enough. And let us not forget, that FSF considers Wire a high priority project (https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Wire).
So, what is needed is a comparison between the two and possibly other similar software. Preferably on non-free devices as well, since non-enthusiasts tend to be using such.
"Working well" doesn't help, either. To overcome the social inertia imposed by non-free communication software, the free/libre alternatives must perform so much better than their proprietary counterparts.
For common people I would recommend Wire.
Thanks. I still need a practical comparison, though.
I have tested jami on pc. Audio and
video I did not get to work on
debian 9 64bit main.
Messages worked. I did get audio
and messages to work between
a pc and a replicant phone.
I tested tox.chat between 2
pcs. Audio and video did not work.
Messages did.
On jitsi desktop audio, video and
messages works between
pcs. Jitsi desktop requires a sip account. On meet.jit.si
audio, video and messages works. But my understanding
is, you cannot guard yourself from the
software on the server getting
manipulated. I assume same situation about
wire in a browser.
Thanks, tonlee. This is quite informative, though jitsi was not in the OP.
Are there more test results out there which we can gather for a small 'report'?
> informative
I do not say they do
not work. I could
not get them to
run.
Which is good information, especially in regard of the details you posted.
> I did get audio
and messages to work between
a pc and a replicant phone.
It should have said about wire
I did get audio and messages to work between
a pc and a replicant phone.
I think jami is great. I have used it on my Android mass surveillance device (one day I hope to upgrade to Replicant or similar) and also on a Trisquel (using the Ubuntu 16.04 version on the basis that Trisquel 8 is based on Unbuntu 16.04) computer. I even once used it on a Windows computer (the shame is unbearable). It has worked fine for me with 2-way calls/messaging using audio and video and of course as a text messenger service.
I would just comment that it has been occasionally glitchy when trying to transfer photos and I am often getting the error "unjoinable peer". I am hoping this problem will be resolved in not too distant future because I believe a GNU/free communication tool like this which runs smoothly can be inspiring to the younger generation who are aware of the problems of mainstream apps but go along with it for apparent convenience.
Using free/libre software on Losedows is not something of dishonor. In contrary, even FSF suggests that Losedows useds begin with trying part of GNU subset on Losedows (if they temporarily cannot get rid of it).
In my local community, I sometimes suggest new comers first try some free/libre software on their Losedows systems, rather than immediately install a GNU/Linux distribution on their HDD/SSD (dual booting) or even in a VM. Originally, I insisted that new comers immediately switch to GNU/Linux, without taking much of their needs into consideration, and such practice (almost) always backfire.
If, some day, the Losedows useds can use Losedows with only free/libre applications to accomplish their routine tasks, they can do it using GNU/Linux as well. And then the switching to GNU/Linux would be painless.
I have been part of group tests of the Jitsi Meet integration in Riot:
https://write.as/zk9vm8m00eutn.md
... and the group chat in Jami:
https://write.as/c7fda5x13qzve.md
I have also used Wire quite a lot, on the recommendation of various folks on this forum. Wire has an excellent and fairly polished UX (with clients for web, desktop, and mobile) and I have managed to get a number of family members and friends to use it. If not for the fact that it is blocked by the Great Firewall - so it only works when I can get a VPN to connect - I suspect I could get them to start using it regularly with me, and eventually with each other. The only major downside of Wire is that it's not federated, although that is on their long term roadmap, and they are willing to allow any non-official clients anyone develops to connect to their server (unlike Signal).
Jami has huge potential (as does Tox), but neither will be ready for use by non-geeks until a lot more work is done to improve the client UX. For example, although group chat works (we tested it with 3 people), it's very difficult to figure out how to start a group chat, see the write up linked above for details.
These write ups describe testing sessions organized as part of VOICE (VOICE Organized Investigation of Chat Engines), an informal app testing group, trialing free code apps to see how well they handle voice chat, especially with groups. We aim to have a group chat testing session at least once a month, on a Sunday, starting at 8:00 UTC, with the first Sunday of the month as the default. We are currently using a Matrix chat room to confirm the timing of testing sessions, as well as for discussion about available apps and related topics: #voicechat:matrix.org
Since the Jami test we have been struggling to get enough participants to make testing sessions possible, so I encourage anyone interested in free code voice chat apps to join in. If anyone knows how to bridge our Matrix group with a Jabber MUC (or even an IRC room) to make it more accessible, please get in touch.
strypey, which client do you use for matrix?
Also, do you run Jami on your computer or your phone?
GNUbahn:
> strypey, which client do you use for matrix?
I use Riot, on both Android and Trisquel. I like the Android version better than the Electron, which AFAIK is the only one available for desktop OS. I would love to try a native GNU/Linux client if anyone hears of one. I have also tried Pattle on the Android, which is more of an instant messenger style UI, unlike Riot which is more of a team chat Slack-a-like.
> Also, do you run Jami on your computer or your phone?
Both, although again I feel like the Android version has the more polished UI. The desktop version has been updating fine from the old ring.cx repo on my 32-bit laptop, but I have had some troubles installing on the 64-bit laptop, as discussed here:
https://git.jami.net/savoirfairelinux/jami-packaging/issues/39
In another thread (https://trisquel.info/en/forum/verifying-install-files-zotero) I question the intallation of software not in the repo. To my knowledge, riot is not in trisquel repo.
From where do you recommend downloading it?
From the main site (no intermediary, who could tamper with the file), following the instructions "For Debian 9 (Stretch), Ubuntu 16.04 (Xenial), and later" on https://riot.im/download/desktop/
Gracias.
And following those instructions will also verify the installation file, right?
I am not sure to understand what you mean. You will get what the developers distribute. There is always a possibility that some of the developers are malicious. Or that the server was cracked and the files altered. Or that the libraries or even tools (e.g., the compiler) that Riot's developers use suffer from similar problems.
Me:
> The desktop version [of Jami] has been updating fine from the old ring.cx repo on my 32-bit laptop, but I have had some troubles installing on the 64-bit laptop
Just a quick update on this, I've figured out what the problem was and why it happened. Jami is now installed on the 64-bit laptop too. I haven't rebooted yet (in case that makes any different) but for now it's still not working that well for text chat. The message delay is intolerable, even when the person I'm trying to chat with is online and we're chatting fine on jabber at the same time :/
FYI PrivacyTools.io has delisted Wire due to the reorganization of their company structure to accept US venture capital, and their lack of transparency around these changes:
"After a week of questioning, Wire finally confirmed they had changed holding companies and would now be a US based company in a move they called “simple and pragmatic,” as they worked to expand their foothold in the enterprise market. This also came alongside the news that Wire had accepted more than $8 million in Venture Capital (VC) funding from Morpheus Ventures, as well as other investors. Morpheus Ventures holds a portfolio including companies in healthcare, voice AI, life insurance, and retail customer data analytics: All sectors that have historically used invasive data collection methods to survive."
https://blog.privacytools.io/delisting-wire/
Yet another piece of evidence that even having both client and server code published under free licenses is not enough. More and more it seems that full user respect requires an app that is either a) fully distributed (P2P) and developed by a trustworthy and competent not-for-profit development community, or b) federated so that users have a choice of server provider, including the option to self-host a server, and have the ability to move their account and their data if their different provider makes organizational changes they don't like. I note that Signal doesn't meet either of these criteria, and its lead dev has made it clear it never will, and it's also headquartered in the states and funded by privacy-abusing corporations (notably FarceBook), but it remains listed by PTIO.
A friend from the US has got his family using Riot and they seem fairly happy with it. So until Jami is user-friendly enough for Mere Mortals and reliable enough for day-to-day use (no group text chat, and 1-1 text chat is painfully slow and unreliable compared to Tox apps), I'll probably be suggesting folks use Riot with non-geek friends and family.
EDIT: or maybe NextCloud Talk? But I haven't had a chance to test that yet.
Thanks. This is really important news. I am trying to get family members to use wire but this is a concern.
I am testing Jami on my own - perhaps I could/should join your test-group? If Jami works ok I'll try to persuade my family to shift.
Btw, I found that Wire sometimes drains the battery fast. Mostly it is not that bad, though.
GNUbahn:
> I am testing Jami on my own - perhaps I could/should join your test-group?
Please do! The more the merrier. VOICE has the Matrix chat room ( #voicechat:matrix.org ), and we recently set up a Hubzilla group channel where we can post our testing reports into the fediverse, set up a wiki etc:
https://hub.libranet.de/channel/voice
> If Jami works ok I'll try to persuade my family to shift.
It's not ready for primetime yet. Voice conversations are petty good, but the delays and out-of-order message delivery makes the text chat unusable, and there's no group text chat (yet).
> I found that Wire sometimes drains the battery fast.
I hear this complaint about all chat apps. I think it's unavoidable. Some are more efficient than others, for various reasons but any chat app has to keep some kind of daemon alive to receive or check for new messages arriving and give you a notification (if you have then turned on). It would be intriguing to see someone do a benchmarking test using a range of chat apps on the same device and testing their battery usage over the same set of activities (messages sent and received, notifications on and off, etc)