A laptop earns FSF Respects Your Freedom certificate

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lembas
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It's the Gluglug refurbished IBM ThinkPad X60.

http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/gluglug

spikeb
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haha, i just posted another topic with this same information, didn't see your post.

lembas
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Great minds think alike! :)

Here's the shop btw http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/

Happy days.

lloydsmart

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Nice!

Does this mean there's finally a computer RMS can use?

joshuagay

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We published a press release, too: http://www.fsf.org/news/gluglug-x60-laptop-now-certified-to-respect-your-freedom

@lloydsmart: This is the first laptop RMS would recommend people to buy and use as is. RMS and the FSF have many machines that run only free software (and user installable firmware).

mYself
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What about Lenovo X201? When that will be available, RYF certified?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU0NDY

On a sidenote, the wifi card used in the Glu..something X60/s model contains a bluetooth chip that does not work with free software. I know that because I tested it today.

Michał Masłowski

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X201 has a ME.bin blob, like the one used for AMT. It doesn't work
without it (reboots after some time) and it's not clear for me if the
"secondary embedded processors" exception in the RYF criteria applies to
it (there are also the possible spying and backdoor issues). (Coreboot
contains a CPU microcode update, but maybe it can be disabled: I believe
Gluglug removes the microcode update for X60. Other blobs aren't needed
or are allowed by the exception.)

mYself
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So "Embedded Controller" blob is allowed in RYF, but not "Management Engine". Am I correct? I doesn't have a notebook running coreboot yet, so I'm not familiar with it, but I'm looking for a replacement for my R60 in form of either the X60/s, or the X201 ThinkPad model, and this is a very important question not only for me.

jxself
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"So "Embedded Controller" blob is allowed in RYF, but not "Management Engine". Am I correct?"

Quite right. AMT is an entirely different beast than something that's limited to detecting the laptop lid being opened/closed, etc.

All the recent Intel X86 laptops are too hard to liberate (although that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.) Besides the CPU in some peripherals, like the WiFi card (that could be replaced easily by a card compatible with the ath9k driver for instance), there is another, very dangerous/powerful one in the PCH (Platform Controller Hub, an Intel term which descibes the chip that now combines the northbridge, southbridge and superio).

The CPU in the PCH is connected to the RAM and owns the network cards that comes with the laptop (like the Wifi and ethernet cards that were there when the laptop was bought).

It usually run a firmware called AMT but it can also run other kind of firmwares and has to (otherwise the laptop shutdowns/reboots after 30min in that case, or doesn’t boot at all for more recent hardware).

The issue is that:
* The code running on that CPU in the PCH is signed (The PCH CPU has a bootrom).

* It seems that nobody has enough interest and skills (some people have skills or interest in it, but not both at the same time) for avoiding or replacing that code.

Cryptographically signed proprietary software with direct access to the network cards and, according to the Wikipedia article, allows for remote system access even when the machine is sleeping, powered off, the OS has crashed, the software agent is missing, or hardware (such as a hard drive or memory) has failed. Eek.

It will probably be a while before newer X86 laptops are eligible for the Respects Your Freedom logo, assuming that anyone can be found with both the skills and interest (at the same time) to work on it.

References:
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Active_Management_Technology

mYself
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Thanks for your comprehensive explanation. If I understood correctly, the problem can be tracked down to vPro. I made some research and found this:

- laptops in the "X" series of ThinkPad line has the CPUs soldered on-board. This comes as a shock to me, because I expected the processor to be replaceable, just like on my R60.

- according to the Lenovo Support page, there is at least one model that comes with Core i3-330M processor, which lacks both vPro/TXT.*

Therefore my question is, can the X201 model become completely freedom respecting if the soldered processor will not support Intel vPro/TXT?

* Noting that reballing/resoldering of the CPU is technically also possible, although I currently doesn't have any experience with this (would like to change my i7-640M processor, to i5-480M model, which is the highest spec'd CPU model, based on the Arrandale microarchitecture)

ssdclickofdeath
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"All the recent Intel X86 laptops are too hard to liberate"

How recent? 2010?

Zancudo
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The wikipedia article says ATM is available "with Intel Core vPro processor family". Am I correct that a missing vPro feature successfully avoids ATM?

I asked because there seem to be some X201i thinkpads with i3-330M, i3-370M, and i5-430M processors which according to the specs provided by Intel don't have vPro. Could these machines once flashed with coreboot respect your freedom?

axgb
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Don't various models of LEMOTE laptop have free BIOS? Those may not be the best laptops in the world, but shouldn't those have a respect your freedom certificate?

ssdclickofdeath
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Perhaps Lemote never tried to get them certified. Anyway, they are too hard to obtain.

GNUser
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Probably. If we think about it, it was not IBM who got the certification, the FSF gave it because of glug's work. So, maybe that is the reason, since there are not a lot of places you can get lemote yeelong prepared with freebios and such.
A problem with lemote is the fact that not every distro will run on it =/
But they do have it's use, even if I prefer the X60 (looking at the specs at least).

ssdclickofdeath
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It uses the relatively obscure MIPS CPU architecture.

GNUser
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Exactly :)
Debian and GNewsense (based on Debian) run it. Don't know other distros that support it.
(again, it shows that more options bring freedom, kudos to Debian team)

Michał Masłowski

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Every Lemote YeeLoong with the Loongson 2F CPU has free boot firmware
(PMON, like a BIOS but with support for loading kernels from filesystems
or network; usually makes GRUB on disk unnecessary), but the default
distro recommends/includes nonfree software. I don't know if there are
any freedom issues for PMON. (There are for all other devices that it
supports: these need nonfree VGA option ROM, while GRUB can be used as a
fully free replacement for PMON on FuLoong.)

Freedom Included sold YeeLoongs with gNewSense preinstalled. I think it
could have been endorseable.

GNUser
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Didn't know that. Cool :)
Can't imagine why they didn't endorse it then.
Lol, if I could afford it I guess I would make a collection of those (yeloong, X60, etc) :P

jpl888
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FYI. If you want something now, and with recent hardware (although a bit blobby), get a Chromebook.

There are currently coreboot builds on my site for 5 models - Acer C710 (Sandybrige + Ivybridge variants), HP 14 (Sandybridge Feb 2013), Samsung Series 5 550, and Pixel.

http://johnlewis.ie/pre-built-coreboot-firmware-for-chromebooks/

I expect to have an Acer C720, kindly donated by Google, in the New Year, and the code is in coreboot ready to go (although possibly still missing binaries). It's the fastest thing this side of a Pixel, and for €200/€250, hard to beat. Even if I need to debug and get help from the coreboot mailing list, I would *hope* to have a working C720 build by mid-January.

mYself
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This is what I'm saying too.

I recommend you the HP Chromebook 14 over the C720 model, since it has a bigger screen, and is an overall better/more advantageous purchase, but since it's a donation, I doesn't think you have much choice about what you will get (if you can, go for the Pixel :^P). The previous C710 model was a commercial blockbuster because of its extremely well set price / performance / hacker-friendliness ratio.

Btw., thanks for the BIOS builds. I already made a recommendation on my Acer C710 wiki page on how to add SeaBIOS support + remove the annoying verification screen by flashing your custom firmware.

It would be great if you, or somebody else would begin selling customized Chromebooks with Coreboot + GNU/Linux pre-installed (e.g. like the aforementioned shop).

jamathis

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Awesome. When I'm in the market for a new laptop, I'll be ordering one.

GNUser
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I was taking a read yesterday at the article on FSF website, and I was very happy when I saw that they had recognized the work done by the glug shop. HOWEVER, and I think this is important to say, unless my memory is playing a trick on me, glug RAISED THE PRICES THE SAME DAY!
Now... I am not against making a living with free/open software/hardware. I all pro it. But really, just because it has the FSF damn certificate, it has to become more expensive??? Damn, if that's the case, please FSF don't issue anymore certificates! -.-
I am not sure, but I think the prices raised 20 pounds (or whatever they call it) a piece. Maybe they needed the extra income, but they should have waited a few weeks, this way it makes them and the FSF look "greedy".
Anyway, I hope more laptops start coming with free bios.

mYself
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The prices nearly doubled since November:

IBM Lenovo ThinkPad X60 (w/ coreboot) (w/o extras) - from £99 to £178
IBM Lenovo ThinkPad X60 (w/ coreboot) - from £119 to £198

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20131103030707/http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/product/ibm-lenovo-thinkpad-x60-coreboot/

GNUser
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When I saw it the first time, they were about 150. But maybe the price had been changed before already.
Anyway, it's a very bad idea to raise the price exactly in that moment.

mYself
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The prices has been raised by £20 again. Now

IBM Lenovo ThinkPad X60 (w/ coreboot) (w/o extras) costs £198+, and
IBM Lenovo ThinkPad X60 (w/ coreboot) costs £218+.

I hope that this will stop at some point since I want to buy an X60 for myself.

lembas
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Supply and demand. you know. Makes me happy to see an ethical business doing well. Might buy me one when this current lapper dies.

GNUser
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They keep the prices coming up until they see that people will stop buying. When that happens, they lower it a little bit again, and keep selling the most units at the highest price. So, yeah, they will make tons of money from people who want freedom, but a lot of people won't have freedom because the prices are so high... I can't consider it a good thing, and maybe it would be enough for the FSF to cancel it's certification. But it's just my opinion of course. I have changed my mind about buying one for myself that's for sure.

onpon4
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Makes sense. If the price is too low, the guy's not going to be able to keep up with the demand for it. Keep in mind that this is currently the only laptop with the "respects your freedom" endorsement; that means that a lot of people are going to want it.

ssdclickofdeath
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How much is that in USD?

mYself
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GNUser
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Hum... excuse me, but how is having a lot of costumers a bad thing? -.^
I don't know how much he spends to get the laptops, but if he started selling at 100 and is now near the 200, he sure is making use of the publicity to get more and more profit margin. While that is not "wrong" in itself, it does show that the main motivation may not be the "selling of free laptops" but instead "making the most money possible with the excuse of free bios".
Again, I am happy that they are able to make a bussiness out of this. I really am! I was actually wondering if I would get one myself (even if I can't really spare money on another laptop right now). But as it seems, I will never get to buy it, because the price keeps going up!
And not " alot of people will want it". there are not a lot of people who want a free bios... Dozes of people maybe, but not thousands!

onpon4
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Selling more doesn't help if you don't have anything left to sell. So if the demand is too high for you to supply, you raise the price, reducing the demand.

GNUser
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So you make freedom available only for those who pay the highest price? -.-
as I have said, in a purely commercial view, I understand. They are selling a service and an item, and they are entitled to make the price. And people are free to choose if they want it or not. But I consider that we should not be blind to the fact that they are on this to make money, not to spread FSF or freedom, or whatever. Which is a shame, I believe they would have more costumers if they would keep the prices low. And yes, having more costumers is good. If you are left with nothing to sell, that's good, pack your stuff and go vacations :P

tct
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În 2013-12-20 23:09, name at domain a scris:
> So you make freedom available only for those who pay the highest price?
> -.-

I am bored with your arguments. People are used to pay more (much more)
for better marketed hardware (think of Apple's). This hardware is
intended for people who value freedom more than marketing and
technological novelty. If you want to be free, you pay more -- software
freedom is not recognized as a human right and that's why you have to
make sacrifices for now (of functionality, of money etc)

This company (like any other company) is the only entity which can set
its prices. They are not volunteers, they are a company. If you consider
the price is to high, don't buy from them, write a blog post about your
arguments and send it to them. Post the link here if you must. But stop
wasting everybody's time (and stop annoying everybody) by coming again
and again with the same arguments why the company is wrong to be for
profit and sell expensive FAIF products.

We get it, you don't endorse them. But who cares about your endorsement.
Start a Free Software (commercial) project of your own and prove
everybody you are right, Free Software respecting hardware can be cheap
and affordable. I am sure that will be true in the future, as our Free
Software Movement will grow and win more battles.

Don't go against ethical doers or at least don't insist on this. Make a
statement and become a doer yourself.

Please, you don't have to argue with me. Just admit enough is enough.
You made your point. Go write a blog post and invite people to discuss
the price issue on your blog. Is a win-win, I am sure you can see that.

Thanks,
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GNUser
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Two words for you: fuck off

You are bored with my comments, but not with people who act like FSF parrots, merely repeating everything they post on their website.
If you read my comments (can you read??) you will see that I am defending their right to raise the prices, but that we should realise they are here to make money and not to "bring freedom to the masses". You said the exact same thing, but you say "I am bored with your arguments". Honestly, raising the prices in the same day the FSF mentioned them, was a poor choice. Even in a commercial point of view, it makes you look bad. Maybe you should consider that.

Also, you mention Apple... Well, Apple makes their computers in China with slave workers. If you don't mind that, I do. Terrible example you picked.
Just to let you know, even if Apple would start producing free software I would still not work with them, nor buy their stuff. I treasure my privacy and freedom, but I treasure human rights much more.

ZykoticK9
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GNUser
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Maybe you should post those to the person above me.

tct
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FYI, I have reported your violation of all 3 rules of the Code of
Conduct. And proposed you get banned.

În 2013-12-20 23:54, name at domain a scris:
> they are here to make money and not to "bring freedom to the masses".

As I see it, there are "here" for both reasons. The masses don't know
how to (or don't risk to) install coreboot on their own.

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GNUser
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and FYI I knew you would do just that, even before you did. That's how you (and other people here) want things to be from now on. You want to trample over users who "bore" you, without them having any chance of fighting back. You want to put people out so you can be "holier than the holy", without any opposing views and opinions being expressed.
So, you be a part of "freedom movements" as much as you like, but as long as you support censorship and imposing your views on others (not wanting them to argument back their own) and as far as you go as a person (from your atittude I can see clearly how you are as a "man", or should I say "kid"?), you are the worst piece of shit in this place. You think because you are a president of some stupid group you are above others and can push them around like you tried to do with me. You are not and you cannot.

"oooh, GNUser was bad to me, punish him! He bored me with his arguments that I didn't like! I don't want him here and I am the king"
Maybe you should be banned and thrown into a kids board, because you sound like one. Maybe there they don't allow the kind of dictatorship and censorship you wish to implement here.

And I stick with my two words for you: FUCK OFF

tct
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În 2013-12-21 04:06, name at domain a scris:
> You want
> to trample over users who "bore" you, without them having any chance
> of fighting back.

You don't need to fight with people on this forum, we are not the ones
selling the laptops. You know what to do: write a blog post, post the
link here if you must, send Gluglug a letter, update the blog post and
build a group of like-minded people on your blog and start a movement
for cheap RYF hardware. Then start spending volunteer time for your
movement to succeed. Become a doer.

Otherwise, you made your point here, move on. And respect other people's
opinions, remember the Code of Conduct with which you agreed when you
signed up and you repeatedly violated. And use your own advices, don't
act like a king around here (and don't be a kid/childish either), you
are not in charge (neither am I). Don't curse (swear). Don't make
personal attacks. Reply with counter-arguments to each argument others
present to you. Don't make the same statements over and over again in
the hope you will be more convincing this time. Use arguments and bring
counter-arguments. Be civilized. Don't waste people's time like you do
now with mine. I am not your father, I don't have the responsibility to
take care of your education. That's why I proposed you be banned.

--
Tiberiu C. Turbureanu
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GNUser
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It's funny, I checked your account... You barely do anything other than posting in your own threads, not taking the time to actually answer any questions of other users (I thought this forum was here to help people with doubts and questions), yet you come here and say "I am bored" as if it was a rational argument and just say "I want this guy banned" simply because I told you to fuck off, which means, don't bore me to death with your self imposed need to rule over other people's views/forums/etc.
So, yeah, I have basically told you everything that you needed to read, I will only clarify one more thing: I was the first person mentioning the raising prices yes but I was also the first to say they were in their own right to do so. You basically felt the need to defend them from a non.existent attack. And you probably did so with the intent of starting a fight with me (trying to get me into trouble, you are not the first one to try).

Any person with a little brain inside their skulls will see that I was not attacking glug, or their work, merely stating a fact and my personal opinion about that fact. What happened after that was caused by you, because you apparently need the feeling of "power" over others. Well, not over me sir, don't even think about it. I state my views whenever I feel I should, and you ain't gonna shut me down. So, again, fuck off.

And I am done with you, get a life and don't bother me again, I am here for the honest people who need help or merely a little debate, not for people like you who only look for themselves. Bye.

tct
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În 2013-12-21 15:21, name at domain a scris:
> It's funny, I checked your account... You barely do anything other
> than posting in your own threads, not taking the time to actually
> answer any questions of other users

My activity on this forum is of no relevance to the topic. Violation of
rule #3 of the Code of Conduct:

"Personal attacks: We don't tolerate personal attacks here."

Rest assured I help promoting Trisquel and offer assistance to Trisquel
users with my foundation. My focus is on Romanian-speaking users.

> I was the first person
> mentioning the raising prices yes but I was also the first to say
> they were in their own right to do so. You basically felt the need to
> defend them from a non.existent attack.

You attacked Gluglug by saying that the company is not driven
(motivated) by ethics, but only by profit.

> And you probably did so with
> the intent of starting a fight with me (trying to get me into
> trouble, you are not the first one to try).

You are a victim.

> I state my
> views whenever I feel I should, and you ain't gonna shut me down.

This is not your backyard to do whatever you feel like. You should be
banned and you should serve as an example for other new and old trolls.

> So, again, fuck off.

Violation of rule #2 of the Code of Conduct:

"Language: Express yourself without hard language (i.e. cursing)."

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Sim
Sim
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It's a pity that you both argue so much about this issue. I have sympathy for both of your opinions. Here is enough space for all opinions, isn't it.

Maybe we should simply ask gluglug about the reason for raising the price over 100%. Maybe he like to expand and need money to develop an alternative Notebook running with free software.

tct
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În 2013-12-22 01:16, name at domain a scris:
> Maybe we should simply ask gluglug about the reason for raising the
> price over 100%.

By all means. If this issue is important to you, take action. This
community is not the one selling the laptops. So it's useless to guess
and debate guesses about what are Gluglug's reasons for raising the
prices and what motivates them to liberate a laptop (although it should
be obvious they are ethical *and* for profit).

--
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GNUser
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One thing I have learned (though it took me some time to do so): Don't feed the trolls.
Reading this comment of yours, I realized you are a troll. It's amazing I hadn't realized it before, but finally this comment of yours was so full of your "self importance" that I was able to see it. So, this is the last reply you will get from me. And I am only doing this last one to let you know that... you know, since you are gonna act like a troll on the internet, you should be more careful, and not post your personal information in your signature. It could prove to be... unhealthy. Especially when you don't know when to fuck off, even when told by me three times...

See you never (we both hope)

P.S.: Fuck off

ahj
ahj

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I think it's about time someone puts the proverbial banhammer down on your backside. All I see from the majority of your posts is constant whining and name-calling.

You know what they say. It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Well you my friend have removed all doubt in a stunning display of inane shitposting which has lead yet again to the derailment of what should have been a useful and constructive thread.

tct
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În 2013-12-22 01:19, name at domain a scris:
> One thing I have learned (though it took me some time to do so): Don't
> feed the trolls.

And I am following this path with you, feeding you all the way. But I
hope this will end well for this forum, with you banned from it.

> So, this is the last reply you will get from me.

It's the second time you promise that: "And I am done with you. [...]
Bye"

> you should be more careful,
> and not post your personal information in your signature.
> It could prove to be... unhealthy.

I will make sure to report this public threat as well. This goes beyond
personal attack (rule #3 of the Code of Conduct). I am sure the team
didn't even think they should include "public threats" in the list of
forbidden activities on this community forum.

> Especially when you don't know when to fuck
> off, even when told by me three times...
> See you never

Yet another violation of #2 rule of the Code of Conduct: "Language:
Express yourself without hard language (i.e. cursing)."

This of course goes beyond rule #2, because you are actually trying to
banish me from this community. Like a dictator, but you forget you are
not in charge here.

> (we both hope)

Double personality or you are acting as part of a troll team, with
quantumgravity (shiretoko) as your sidekick (and from what I see, with
few more showing their interests in joining you).

Everybody else on this forum, I am sorry for this mess on such a
wonderful news topic.

--
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quantumgravity
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"Double personality or you are acting as part of a troll team, with
quantumgravity (shiretoko) as your sidekick (and from what I see, with
few more showing their interests in joining you)."

Hey man, are you the sheriff in here? Could you please provide some evidence that you're the person in charge for forum moderation?
Why do you think you have any authority in here?

I'm in this forum now for a 3/4 year and you were never participating. Now you come around telling everyone who should get banned and who should not say this and that.
I already explained to you why I never signed any contract to never speak against the fsf, though I joined this forum and though trisquel (the distribution) is fsf endorsed (I don't know why this should affect the members of the community anyway).
You ignored almost every of my arguments with a huge post of belony, just repeating the original claims I was arguing against (prop. software developers should simply get another job, they don't starve... this was the whole point of my discussion and you just repeated it).
You provided the argument that you call yourself a "computer scientist" and "write programs", ignoring the fact that you as an individual don't prove anything for the general situation.
You continued with this style of discussion when replying to roboq6, providing terrible ideas about ethics which would cost me many hours of my life to argue against.
After all I don't see a chance for you to change your pharisee-like viewpoint and I won't try to help you, but please just resume your old habits and put the sheriff-star back in your bag.

tct
tct

I am a member!

Offline
Joined: 10/23/2011

În 2013-12-22 13:48, name at domain a scris:
> Hey man, are you the sheriff in here? Could you please provide some
> evidence that you're the person in charge for forum moderation?
> Why do you think you have any authority in here?

I don't, Trisquel Community Guidelines have authority here.

https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines

> I'm in this forum now for a 3/4 year and you were never participating.

And I am a free software activist for 7 years. None of this is of no
relevance. You don't follow this community's guidelines.

> Now you come around telling everyone who should get banned

By now, I have formally proposed that only gnuser should be banned.

> and who should not say this and that.

I am merely posting here the guidelines and rules of conduct which are
violated.

> I already explained to you why I never signed any contract to never
> speak against the fsf, though I joined this forum and though trisquel
> (the distribution) is fsf endorsed (I don't know why this should
> affect the members of the community anyway).

You are confusing FSF with the Free Software Movement. Attacks on the
movement cannot be tolerated in this project since "The Trisquel project
is part of the Free Software Movement." (See Trisquel Community
Guidelines)

> You provided the argument that you call yourself a "computer
> scientist" and "write programs", ignoring the fact that you as an
> individual don't prove anything for the general situation.

This was not an argument and I didn't use myself as a model since I
didn't say anything about my activity. I simply gave everybody the
information that I am in the field of computer programming and I am not
telling stories I heard from programmers.

> After all I don't see a chance for you to change your pharisee-like

Violation of rule #3 of the Code of Conduct: "Personal attacks: We don't
tolerate personal attacks here."

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quantumgravity
Offline
Joined: 04/22/2013

You're permanently defining meaning of words yourself.

1.) Who is "the free software movement" exactly and who defines its values?
I doubt you have evidence for this so most of your accusations have no base

2.) You might interprete my words as a personal attack. I don't see why this should be the case. I compared the values you expressed in your posts with a historical group of people.
By the way, you called many people "trolls" in here.

I think this is a
Violation of rule #3 of the Code of Conduct: "Personal attacks: We don't
tolerate personal attacks here."
Also, you're trying to impose cencorship, which clearly violates the community guidelines:
"keep in mind the spirit of free software and the GNU/Linux system."

Better ban yourself.